Sunesis

Awesome post Geisha. I think the Apostle Paul is important for several reasons. But first, a little background to explain why I think so. Remember, the 12 Apostles had been with Jesus on earth. They were sent to the Jewish people. Their message was "repent, the Kingdom of heaven come to earth is at hand. You crucified the Messiah, but he is still ready to come back." Remember, all Israel needs to repent and call on the Messiah for him to come back. If Israel had repented, we would have skipped over our current age of grace and gone on to Revelation - Christ would have come back as King. Things would be very different today. Israel did not believe. Now what? Who would have thunk Israel would have rejected the Messiah? All through Acts, Pauls Hope is Israel's Hope, as he states in Acts 26. He taught nothing other than "what the law and the prophets say." "I am in chains for the Hope of Israel." That's why, all of his epistles up through Acts 28 are loaded with OT scripture - he is able to show people that this was all prophesised. Read Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Thes., James, Jude, etc. - they believed the return was immanent and they would see it in their lifetime. That's why Peter had to address - hey, where is his coming? Its been years now. People were starting to wonder (I and II Peter). But, Israel refused to believe - now what? Now, Paul is commissioned to go to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28). Starting with Ephesians you can see something has happened, there has been a change. Paul, as he says in his own words, received a revelation from the risen, heavenly Christ. What was this great revelation? It was: God will take a people and house them with Him and His Son in Heaven for eternity - he will make a "new creation" a creation never seen. A people who will believe - even though they never saw. God will take a people for Heaven - above the heavenlies. This is why in the prison epistles (Eph., Col, Phil., Timothy, Titus & Philemon) virtually no OT scripture is quoted. Why? Because this was Paul's revelation, shown to him by the risen Christ kept secret from before the Foundation of the World. This revelation is not in the OT, nor was it ever prophesised. Thus, he can't prove it. He cannot "prove" this new revelation. We just have to believe him and learn about it in his prison epistles. Why did all asia turn away from him at the end? Because for Jewish Christians - it was nonsense, Paul could not prove this out of the OT, and it was ludicrous for them to think God would take gentiles (aliens, strangers and with no hope in the world), and give them this amazing grace and mercy - who ever heard of a people in heaven for eternity???? He's crazy. Maybe Paul was, maybe he wasn't. Our heavenly citizenship is our Hope - the Hope of the new creation. Our hope is not land, and a kingdom on earth. So the Christian now has a choice - believe what Paul said in his prison epistles, or no. Its like the movie the Matrix - here's a blue pill, here's the red pill. Do you want to take the pill and go further (i.e., believe Paul's revelation) or no? Many people do not believe Paul's revelation. Fine. To me, this age of grace was a secret from before the foundation of the world. It is the cherry on top, it is the tip of the pyramid put into place - it is the fullness of God's revelation. But, Paul couldn't "prove" it with scripture from the OT. Thus, all turned away. As many have done today. And as many Christians have appropriated Israel's Hope for themselves. So, I think Paul was an important guy, and I believe his wacky revelation and think its important for other Christians to. "Be it unto you according to your believing." I really do not look at heaven as one large arena we'll all be herded into for eternity. I believe there are different places. If you truly, truly believe you are not a citizen of heaven (i.e., do not believe Paul's revelation), well, maybe you will enjoy Israel's hope here on earth. I think, just as Abraham believed and it was counted unto him for righteouness when God promised his seed would populate the earth, I think when Paul believed the revelation he was given, it was counted to him for righteouness and he was the first Citizen of Heaven. He is our apostle of this new revelation - the mystery. I choose to take the pill and explore the heavenlies someday.

"A cow. . . or a God who parts the Red Sea. . . . it is all the same" They went with the cow. - LOL!!!! I love that - too funny.

No problem RobertErasmus. I do very much enjoy your sharings. But I do like the doctrinal section here and don't want anyone to be intimidated to say what they think. Of course there are going to be disagreements. The doctrinal section here to me is simply the Body of Christ talking among itself. And its lovely. Its also something we never could have done in TWI because we were all in lockstep to VPs doctrine. I find it very interesting where people's spiritual quests have taken them after TWI and how their view of the Bible has evolved. I think God works with us in different ways. Yes, I know exactly what my view of the Bible is called and trust me, I didn't arrive there overnight, it was more like decades - but I see it in everything I read in the Bible - to me - it is obvious. To others - something else is obvious. As I said, we are the Body of Christ talking among ourselves, and I love it.

Well, Mr. RobertErasmus, from my study, I do not believe tongues today is what it was then. You can call my opinion "poppycock" all you want, but you have just lowered yourself to me. If you can't speak and have intelligent discussion here on doctrinal without insults, so be it. I'll just skip over your "poppycock" posts in the future. For others: The Disciples were commanded by Jesus to spread the news of the coming Kingdom to the world. Thus, they believed he was coming back shortly, as evidenced by their asking him in his resurrection body, will you restore the Kingdom now? i.e., ok, is it coming now? He sent them out - their "Great Commission". In order to witness to the world in a short time (because they believed the Kingdom was coming shortly, and it would have if Israel had repented and believed as Peter instructed - it was literally "at hand"), they needed to be able to speak other peoples' languages - which they did at pentecost and during the Book of Acts. I believe the manifestation of interpretation was when they were preaching to people via tongues, in their language, and there were others standing near who didn't understand, thus, interpretation was needed. For example, me and my friends speak english. One of my friends is speaking to a group that doesn't speak english via tongues, that non-english group understands and is getting blessed, but me and my english speaking friends have no clue what's being said - thus, someone needs to interpret. We live in an age of grace that was not prophesied about or spoken of in the OT. We as believers are not called to the earthly Kingdom that is to come, nor to the City - the Heavenly Jerusalem that will descend from heaven to earth. We are called, in the age of grace, to live in the "heavenlies." I believe tongues - as it was practiced in Acts - is not the same as what we were taught by VP. We are not commissioned to preach the coming kingdom as it is now held in abayance since Israel rejected their Messiah. I also believe the Holy Spirit has a different "function" in this administration than the last and the one to come. Just my "poppycock."

Tom, I believe the "Jesus Movement" for our generation of the '60s and 70s was a true "revival" of God so to speak. Yes, we did see miracles. I believe, like Geisha pointed out, they were by God's grace and "signs" for us - God revealed himself to us as God. Why was this important? Why did he need to do this? Because our country was in a real doldrums spiritually, churches were losing members and the occult, devil worhip (Son of Sam, Manson, hippie, Leary, drugs, free sex, tune in, turn on, drop out, influx of eastern religions - general psychedelia), and just, not very good things spiritually were on the ascendency (only it was called, the Age of Aquarius) and it was everywhere and kids were following the pied pipers the devil was sending them. God needed at that time to show to us kids that he was greater than he who runs the world. And, it seems these miracles only lasted a very short time. Most of the time, as time went on, we wondered where they were, we had heard tales of things happening, but they kind of only happened to a few. As we grew in the Word, they seemed to subside. That's why VP would have healing services and not many "big" miracles happened, excuses for him were made, and people were disappointed. Yet, we chalked it up to, there's something wrong with us and our believing if we aren't seeing the same results as those in Acts. There must be something wrong with our walk, we are not spiritual enough. So we tried even harder. No one told us, hey, its not your fault - you're trying to live in a time that is in abayance - the wrong administration. I think that would have taken alot of weight off of our shoulders instead of trying to manifest that which was for Israel. We appropriated the wrong administration to ourselves. I know we wanted to walk as Acts believers and VP encouraged it, but I think the reason we did not see the amazing amount of everday signs the Jews saw which were confirming the Kingdom, was because this is a different time - we are in the age of Grace, the times of the Gentiles, with a different calling and a different Hope - a Heavenly home(we are the "new man" the "new creation" to spend eternity in the heavens) - not on earth.

Gen-2, I will give you my take on where the miracles went, because you are right - they are not in operation anymore. I know many people will disagree with me, but I will tell you why I believe they are not in operation anymore. For a little background, I believe the Bible, as I've read it over the years, is essentially, a book of prophecy. It concerns a coming Redeemer (Christ), and a coming Kingdom on earth (the Kingdom - which for our purposes here, includes the New City Jerusalem which Abraham looked for - it will be part of this Kingdom). Ok, so: 1. The OT prophesies Messiah will come. 2. Gospels - Messiah arrives. His ministry is to the JEWS ONLY. This is important. He does miracles - which are signs to Israel. They show and prove that he is the prophesised Messiah. Also, here comes another important part: 3. Messiah/Jesus preaches what? He preaches to the Jews: The Kingdom is at hand, all is ready. Believe on me (note: in the OT, for the Kingdom to arrive, all Israel must turn to the Messiah and he will bring in the Kingdom). So - its here! 4. Jesus is rejected and killed by his people. 5. But, he has 12 Apostles who were commissioned to preach Jesus - to the Jew first. 6. Acts: Peter at pentecost says "repent - the Kingdom is at hand." The Apostles preaching was to Israel. Peter quotes Joel - a prophecy to Israel. If you continue to read Acts, those who believed had the Holy spirit in them. They did signs and miracles. Why? Because they were signs that the Kingdom was at hand. Signs again to Israel. They were a foretaste of what would be normal, daily life in the Kingdom walking in the power of the Holy Spirit. The 12 Apostles were like, the last call at a bar, last chance - repent, Christ is standing on the right hand of God - the Kingdom is here. He will still return if you desire it! So, Israel has had prophets, the Word, the Law, the King arrives, then finally - the Apostles. After all this they say - NO. What happens? What is God's plan for if Israel should reject their Messiah and Kingdom? Acts 28 - Paul now begins his ministry to the Gentiles. The Kingdom is not coming. To emphasize this, the Romans come destroy the Temple, Jews are scattered. A new administration begins. All of Pauls NT writings: Romans, Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians were written BEFORE Acts 28. The Kingdom and signs were still being done, in fact they were so common, Paul has to tell them in Corinthians - whoa dudes, here's how to handle them! At this point believing Gentiles are also "grafted" into Israel's hope. What was Israel's Hope? The Messiah and the Kingdom. In Acts 26 Paul still says, I preach nothing but the Hope of Israel. During Acts, Gentiles were, by grace, allowed to partake of this Hope. So, how did Paul go, from healing people, to leaving Melitius at Trophimas sick, to Timothy being sickly, to a total lack of miracles? What happened, why did they stop and he wasn't healing people anymore? Different administration - beginning in Acts 28:26, where the prophecy for the third time is cited: hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see, etc... I go to the Gentiles. It was after the book of Acts, after Israel has rejected the final offer, in the prison Epistles (Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, I and II Timothy, Philemon and Titus) that Paul has a revelation from God - the cherry on top. It is: God has called a people who will people heaven. In Ephesians we are told we have Power. We do not need the "signs" for Israel anymore since the prophetic clock has stopped and Christ is now building a "new man" - a "new creation." Whose home will be in the heavenlies. The believer's hope in this day and age is: Heaven. Our hope is not the earthly Kingdom - that is Israel's. Once the "days of the Gentiles" are fulfilled, in Revelation God will then deal again with Israel and Gentile - for the final time. This time Israel will all call upon the Lord. I believe one of the reasons that later "all Asia" turned away from Paul was because they thought this new revelation was nuts. And, because it was new and had been kept secret - Paul could not prove it out of scripture. There is no OT prophecy of God taking a Gentile people to abide with him in Heaven. Boy, that sounded nuts. So, they turned away. That's a nutshell, but you are right. The manifestations are not here anymore. They will be when Israel finally does repent and they enter into the Kingdom on Earth. We do have Holy Spirit, Power, which functions differently to us in this age of Grace, of which I could speak more on, but not here. That is an amazing study to do some other time. Ok, that's my take. I'm quite happy having a personal relationship with my Christ :)

Geisha - LOL!!! It does take awhile! Jeff, you're right. I can't blame people. When I left TWI, I put it down and didn't touch or look at it for a couple of years. There's a word for what we became: Bibliophiles - those who worship the Bible.

I think TWI so nit picked the Bible they became worshippers of "da Word." Jeez, what did people do who read it before concordances, various translations, commentaries, etc. They simply read it and were enlightened. God will show people what they need to know. TWI just made it of no effect by their tearing it apart - super analyzing every jot and tittle. It turned us into bondage masters of legalism.

Ok, I also think of it this way. God tabernacled (dwelt) in the Ark with Israel. His Glory shone and rested on the Mercy Seat between the Cheribum. When the Temple was built, God tabernacled (dwelt) in the Holy of Holies - his Glory shone between the Cheribum. It seems no one has a problem with the concept that God dwelt in the Ark and in the Temple with Israel. Jesus' name was: Emmanuel - God with us. God now tabernacled in the flesh. Exact same concept as dwelling in the ark and temple, except now the dwelling is flesh. Flesh was now God's tabernacle - dwelling. Christ - God with us - dwelling in the living, breathing, Flesh. Our kinsman-redeemer. That is awesome. His temple and dwelling place was now in "a body thou hast prepared for me" - flesh.

I tend to think they were both "real" too. If the tree of life was not real, I don't think God would have had two Cheribum guarding it up until the flood. Just as Satan chose to rebel, God had to give his Adam a choice. Without free will, man is nothing but a robot and God is unjust. Without free will, then God is truly unfair and unjust. I think if Adam had told Satan to "get thee behind me" as the Second Adam, Jesus, did (note - was Jesus set up to fail? Thank God he didn't), Adam would have had the right to eat of the tree of life, he would have been ruler of the earth, God's regent on earth so to speak, and Christ would never have had to come redeem man - there would have been no redemption necessary. Every thing would be very different today. As an aside, note the Cheribum's four faces: Man, lion (wild beast), ox (tame beast), bird - i.e., creation. When people came to worship God with burnt offerings outside of Eden, they saw the Cheribum guarding the Tree of Life. I have often wondered if the ancient gods man worshipped were not a corruption of the original Cheribum that Noah and his family saw and passed the info down to mankind who worshipped the "creature" rather than the Creator. Interesting.

You are welcome Garth :)

I think "religion" makes most people puke, me included. I had enough in TWI thank you - no mas religion for me. But, it seems to me, the whole point of the Bible, and mankind needing a personal savior, Christ, is: because man is "fallen" or whatever you would like to call it. If mankind is not fallen - why even believe the Bible? why believe Christ? why believe in a God? It makes absolutely no sense. If I did not believe that simple, basic premise, I would not believe either. I would consider it to be a waste of time and think those poor "believers" were deluded. And, as noted, we do have people who believe this. But, many of us accept the original premise and so thus - mankind needs a redeemer. The Bible's whole point is: There is a new "Kingdom" coming. There is a new Heaven and Earth coming. You will need a new body for the new environment that is coming. The point is to invite all to the new Kingdom and Heaven and Earth. Its a simple point, we can choose to believe the premise or not. But to not believe the first point in the Bible made about mankind - he was perfect and then fell, well, why believe any of it? I wouldn't.

There can never be a reconciliation between one who believes and one who doesn't. As a believer, when God says man is fallen, and, as he tells us, he created us to be masterpieces, I think of fallen man as if someone had thrown paint on the Pieta, or slashed and spattered paint on the Mona Lisa - a masterpiece that has been marred, spoilt - ruined, fallen. I believe that Adam, had he not worshipped and given his authority to the Adversary, would have had the right to go eat of the tree of life and rule, Christ would not have been needed as Adam was fulfilling his mission (there's a reason why Christ is called the "second" Adam), and things would be totally different today. When Adam made his choice to worship the Adversary and "become as gods", when he decided - well, God really doesn't mean it when he says it will be death if I do this - he lost something, something died - something so profound, that he tried to put it back on, via skins. I almost think he wore his spirit for all to see. He was glorious when he walked the Garden - a masterpiece creation of God. I think it was similar as when Peter saw Jesus in his "transfigured" glorious body. Peter never forgot and mentions it in Acts. The Hope of a new body and transformation was a reality to him. He had seen it first hand. God promises to restore us to glorious, masterpiece state. That is our Hope.

Here's a question, or, how would you solve this dilemma? Mankind has fallen. You would like to redeem mankind. You need a "Kinsman-Redeemer" - i.e., flesh must redeem flesh. Yet, flesh cannot redeem flesh, God must redeem. What do you do? How do you, as God, redeem Mankind?

Excellent book Penworks, I've read it a couple of times since I ran into it at a relative's house. It should be required reading. He also applies this to politics. Shows how it doesn't really matter whether its politics or religion - but that the "true believer" is dangerous. I still remember his quote: Once one is ready to die for the cause, he is also ready to kill for the cause (paraphrased). It is a truth. I think, if VP hadn't of died and LCM hadn't turned so many people off, TWI had a possibility of coming to that. That's why any type of elevation/cult/following/worship of a person or cause will always concern me.

What Geisha said! How do I get rid of this stripe with fonts, etc., in the middle of the area to post in?

The 12 Apostles' "Great Commission" given them by Christ was to go, preach the Kingdom of Heaven. Their goal was for Israel to repent and accept that Jesus truly was the Messiah. If Israel had repented, there would have been no "age of grace" that we live in now. It was God's goal for Israel, under Christ to be the conduit for God's blessings on earth to the Gentiles. In order to spread this gospel, they needed to be able to tell folks in the people's own tongues. That's why I believe the miracle was that they spoke in languages other people understood. The Apostles were able to use this "gift" of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Kingdom that was coming to all people in all languages. Sadly, Israel did not repent, as Peter commanded, and over a span of time rejected their Messiah. The Kingdom of Heaven is in "abayance" (doncha love those old TWI terms? - not!) now. Thus, tongues is no longer needed. I think that what we did in TWI was not biblical speaking in tongues.

I believe he was 6th corps.

Yup, I was there when Linda Z was, it always po'es me off when I get my SS statement see those 5 years I worked with no SS to show for it. Grrr... Rosie and TWI - leaches living in luxury off other people's hard earned money.

Well I think that region coordinator is living in the land of Denial. How shocked he will be when he finds out, no one will want to take him in to leach off of them. TWI arrogance never fails to astound me. I was at TWI the same time Ms. Z was. I was under the dreaded Em*g8ne in the bookstore with Catcup where she called us the "scum of the crik." Welcome to TWI HQ! Actually, in some ways I didn't have it so bad because I had been around pretty much from the beginning and knew all of the "top" leadership, and had known them since they were in the corps and I was in high school. Most of the time, I lived off grounds. When I had to live on grounds at one point, I became great friends with a 3rd corps person who lived in a lovely large house by herself, and she asked me to hang out and I ended up living there. Oh, sure, I'd sometimes show my face at my HQ trailer, but I didn't really live there. I think, back then, life at HQ and its misery index was contingent upon who you knew. People close to VP, LCM, and DM could pretty much do as they pleased. There was a lot of partying that went on at HQ among the off grounds staff. A lot of it was from sheer boredom. When I was on staff at Emporia before that, the staff partying was amazing - but it was kept pretty quite. Done on off hours while they were in class. Once I got out of the Bookstore, I landed in Finance, now that was a great, fun department. A lot of just great people there. But, seeing close up the upper TWI rulers, and eventually realizing, they could care less about the people on the field they were supposed to be serving, it was an eye opener. I think the hypocrisy finally grated on me enough to leave. By '84 when I left, TWI had gone from an organization that served people to one that was served by the people. It was petty, intolerant, legalistic, gossipy, and could be down right cruel. When I look back on it, I think I lived off grounds and stayed away after work hours, purposely. Off grounds, you could have somewhat of a life without someone always looking over your shoulder. I still am a bit annoyed also when I get my SS summary and see those 5 blank years - grr. I would never recommend anyone going there now. Like Mz. Z, we were told it was a true honor to be there, we were really serving God. Hah! We were young and still somewhat idealistic. Now, I'd try and discourage anyone from going there. What could they possibly offer but bondage?

Twinky, I was afraid it may be too long - its a read at your leisure thing, a bit here, a bit there. Glad you weren't offended :)

I've always liked the theory that each plague made a mockery of the Egyptians gods. There's a nice article on www.ancientdays.net, I put some of it here. There's more on the net. The Plagues As we consider the plagues, one can discern the purpose of the plagues. In the descriptions that follow, page references are made to the excellent study The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Egypt (Manfred Lurker, Thames and Hudson, 1980). Pre-plague: Snake (Exodus 7:9-12): When Moses came before pharaoh he carried a rod which became a snake. The court magicians' rods also became snakes, but Moses' rod ate theirs. The cobra or "urae" was a symbol of ruling power(108-109,125). The cobra motif is frequently found in Egyptian "art." On the forehead of pharaoh's crown there was a cobra ready to strike. On the throne of King Tut is a coiled cobra ready to strike. So, to overcome the cobra symbol is to overcome the power of pharaoh. Glass fish from the El Amarna Period used as a cosmetic vessel. Fish, although regarded as unclean, were also sacred animals. All the Nile fish died in the plague. Nile River (Exodus 7:14-25): The Nile River was changed to blood. This plague was against the god Hapi, spirit of the Nile in flood and "giver of life to all men." The annual innundation was called "the arrival of Hapi" (57). He was especially worshipped at Gebel Silsileh and Elephantine. The Nile water was the transformed life-blood of Osiris. The fact that the Nile turned to blood, which was abominable to Egyptians, was a direct affront to one of their chief gods. Although the fish-goddess was Hatmeyt, all the fish in the Nile River died! To illustrate the fact that the plagues of the Exodus were directed against the gods of Egypt, we note some Egyptian prayers to those gods. (The reference to "Nine Gods" apparently did not include pharaoh. It may be of interest that there were just nine plagues before Yahweh killed the sons of pharaoh.) Praise to thee, 0 Nile, that issueth from the earth and cometh to nourish Egypt . . . That watereth the meadows, he that Ra hath created to nourish all cattle. That giveth drink to the desert places, which are far from water . . . When the Nile floodeth, offering is made to thee, cattle are slaughtered for thee, a great oblation is made for thee . . . Offering is also made to every other god, even as is done for the Nile, with incense, oxen, cattle, and birds upon the flame . . . All ye men, extol the Nine Gods, and stand in awe of the might which his son, the Lord of All, hath displayed, even he that maketh green the Two Riverbanks. Thou art verdant, 0 Nile, thou art verdant. He that maketh man to live on this cattle, and his cattle on the meadow . . ." (Adolph Erman, The Ancient Egyptians, 1966, p. 146.) The Nile flooded every year, making the land fertile. If the Nile did not flood enough there was famine; if it flooded too much there was famine. The Nile was the lifeblood of Egypt, and thus it became one of their gods. Heathen gods often have some connection with the economics of daily life. Frogs (Exodus 8:1-15): The land was filled with them so that they became objects of loathing. The frog-headed goddess, Hekt (52, 62), played a part in "creation." Hers was one of the oldest fertility cults in Egypt. But she could not control the fertility of a these frogs! Through this plague they became a stench to the Egyptians. Lice (Exodus 8:16-19): At present there is no known link between this plague and a god of the Egyptian pantheon. However, the Egyptian magicians, unable to duplicate this plague, attribute it to "the finger of God" (Exodus 8:19), and they withdraw. Underside of a heart scarab from the New Kingdom. It was laid on the heart of a mummy to ensure favorable testimony at the Judgment. Flies, or Beetles ("insects" -- Exodus 20 - 32): Although it is not clear which insect the Hebrew word 'arob refers to, this plague may have been against Khephera(74), a scarab-headed (104) god regarded as a manifestation of Atum or Ra. It was supposed to be god of the resurrection, perhaps because the dung ball it rolled around, and in which it laid its egg, produced a "new creation." Priests wore scarabs as charms. Or It may have been against the fly-god. One sorcerer in the New Kingdom threatened, "I will enter your body as a fly and see your body from the inside." As a symbol of bravery, soldiers who had proven themselves were decorated with the golden fly (52). Murrain, or Anthrax (Exodus 9:1-7): This judgment was against the bull god (revered as early as the Archaic Period (35), and the sacred cattle of Hathor, the cow-headed love goddess. It was a special reproach to pharaoh who worshipped Hathor. Hathor, whose name means "house of Horus," was sacred as early as the Old Kingdom (41, 58). Other gods associated with cattle were Ptah and Amon. Great cemeteries of embalmed cattle have been excavated. The symbol of the bull was the symbol of pharaoh himself. In the "Hymn to Amon," it is difficult to distinguish the Pharaoh from the bull. The title is: "Adoration of Amunre (Amon-Ra), Bull of Heliopolus, chiefest of all gods, the good god, the beloved, who giveth life to all that is warm, and to every good herd." Praise be to thee, Amunre, Lord of Karnak, who presideth in Thebes. Bull of his Mother, the first on his field! Wide of stride, first in Upper Egypt. . . . Greatest of heaven, eldest of earth, lord of what existeth, who abideth in all things. Unique in his nature among the gods, goodly bull of the Nine Gods, chiefest of all gods. Lord of Truth, father of the gods, who maketh mankind, and createth beast. (Erman, p. 283.) Boils (Exodus 9:8-12): Against the god of healing, Im-Hotep (69), an outstanding nobleman of the Old Kingdom. Although not actually deified until later than the time of the Exodus, he was no doubt revered at this time. But he could do nothing to help the Egyptians. The goddess Sekhmet was also known for her healing ability (106). Hail (Exodus 9:13-15): The sky goddess Nut was "the mother of the sun-god Ra, whom she swallowed in the evening and gave birth to again in the morning" (90). She was especially culpable in this plague in that she was supposed to protect the land from destructions which came down from heaven. Exodus 9:31 mentions that the flax and barley were hit. Destruction of the flax was trying because it was used to wrap mummies and to make clothes. Grasshoppers, or Locusts (Exodus 10:1-20): The locust-headed god was Senehem. During the plague, the locusts were so thick that the "eye of the earth" was darkened (Exodus 10:5). One of the epithets of the sun-god Ra was "the eye of Ra." By causing darkness while the sun was shining, Ra was discredited. Darkness (Exodus 10:21-27): One of the greatest gods of Egypt, next to the pharaoh, was the sun (65, 100, 118). The sun-god Amon-Ra was the principle deity of the pantheon. He made all growth possible. Pharaoh called himself "son of the sun." With three days of darkness, the principle deity was scorned. One of many hymns to the sun may help us feel their devotion to this deity: Beautiful is thine appearing in the horizon of heaven, thou living sun, the first who lived. Thou risest in the eastern horizon, and fillest every land with thy beauty. Thou art beautiful and great, and glistenest, and art high above every land. Thy rays, they encompass the lands, so far as all that thou hast created. Thou art Ra, and thou reachest unto their end and subduest them for thy dear son [the Pharaoh]. Thou art afar, yet are thy rays upon the earth . . . etc., ad nauseum. (Erman, p. 289.) In all the above, many other gods could have been named which were denigrated by the various plagues. But this sampling demonstrates that Yahweh (YHVH) openly and violently, through his servants, put every one of them to shame. Statue of Amon with crown of sun disk and plumes. He was the supreme state god at the time of the Exodus, and as Amon-Ra was identified with the sun-god. Pharaoh (Exodus 11-12): The last plague was not only against the supreme god of Egypt, Pharaoh himself, but also against the future pharaoh, his son, the very next god (Horus) of Egypt. He was to die on the same level as animals (not as a god), for the prophecy was that the firstborn of man and cattle would die. Hymns of worship to many pharaohs have been found. Here is one to Rameses II: The good god, the strong one, whom men praise, the lord, in whom men make their boast; who protecteth his soldiers, who maketh his boundaries on earth as he will. . . . (Erman, p. 258.) Concerning the divinity of the pharaohs, William Edgerton notes: As for the organization and powers of the government, everyone knows that the Pharaoh was an absolute monarch and that his authority rested theoretically on his supposed divinity. He is constantly called"the good god." One of his most frequent titles designates him as the son of the sun-god Ra, and we know that his claim of divine parentage was not a mere figure of speech; it was meant to be taken literally. Theoretically, of course, the Pharaoh's right-to-rule rested on his divinity. He was begotten by the sun-god Amon-Ra, who took the form of the previous king for this purpose, and Amon-Ra with the enthusiastic approval of the other gods placed him on the throne and decreed a long and brilliant reign for him. No doubt those theological fictions helped to strengthen the Pharaoh's position. But the really solid basis of his power was his control of the machinery of government, including the army and police. (Edgerton, Journal of Near Eastern Studies: 6, 1967, pp. 153-4.) A great majority of the historical monuments were intended as official propaganda with the purpose of transmitting to posterity a "correct" impression of the glory and power of the pharaohs. Crises of revolution and that type of inner strife so common in the Orient, as well as military defeats in foreign wars, were either passed over completely or were interpreted so that the monuments conveyed impressions much distorted and unduly colored to the credit of the Egyptians. (Steindorff and Seele, When Egypt Ruled the East, p. 6, our emphasis.) The above is the reason there is no Egyptian record of the Exodus. The Egyptians simply would not record it because it was such a calamity. That may be true. However, we think evidence will yet be discovered for it. Although his mummy has been discovered, the temple of the man who was likely the Pharaoh of the Exodus, Amenhotep II, has never been found. If it is ever found and opened it may contain evidence of the plagues or the Exodus. In Exodus 4:22-23 God told the Egyptians, "Israel is my son, my first-born. Let him go! If not, I will slay thy first-born!" Then in Exodus 11:5-7 and 12:29 we we that the last plague was against the first-born. As if losing the future pharaoh was not enough, even the god of storms, Baal-Zephon, could not help the army which was pursuing Israel into the desert. In plain view of his temple, the whole army of Pharaoh was destroyed (Ex 14:2,9). Baal of Syria was equated by the Egyptians with their god Seth (19, 109). And the cruel sea was believed to be a manifestation of Seth. Yahweh's Purpose in the Plagues The first reason for the final plague was that the Egyptians may know that Yahweh is God! (Exodus 7:5; 8:10; 9:14-16,27; 10:16; 14:4.) The Lord is gracious in that He says over and over that He is doing this for the Egyptians that they might know He is the Lord. In fact, among the Egyptians, those who exercised faith were saved (Exodus 9:20-21; 12:38). Just as we today have an incentive to believe in Christ because of His miracles (John 20:31), so the Egyptians had opportunity to believe because of the plagues. The second reason for the plagues was that Israel might know Yahweh, their God, is The God and that there is no other (Exodus 10:1-2; 11:7; 14:31; Deuteronomy 4:32-35, Psalms 135:5-10). Some of the Israelites seem to have lost faith in Jehovah during their servitude. Possibly they were impressed with Egypt's gods since they seemed to be helping the Egyptians. But now Israel was to see evidence of Yahweh's absolute sovereignty and superiority over all the gods of Egypt. In fact, in Exodus 10:2 (NASB) we read that the Lord mocked the Egyptian gods. Why didn't pharaoh believe? Why should he? He was a god! If he believed, he would lose his "divinity." But God hardened his heart. Why? Because, if he had repented and let Israel go after the first plague, all the gods of Egypt would have retained their greatness in the eyes of the Egyptians and of Israel. People had to suffer to demonstrate that all gods other than Yahweh were nothing. Jethro summed it up well when he later said, "Now I know that Yahweh is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly He was above them!" (Exodus 18:11) Necessary in the plan for Israel's salvation was that they should do a simple, visible act. That was to take a lamb, kill it, and put some of its blood on the doorpost of their dwelling. Egyptian symbolism is interesting even in this act, for a door was a symbol of both entry and defense (47). And gates played a special role in the journey of the deceased through the nether world. For Israel, putting blood on the doorposts indicated that something done in one's heart is not enough. They had to act out their faith. Pharaoh could have saved his first-born if he had done that. But it would have destroyed the Egyptian system. In doing so, he would have acknowledged Yahweh as God. Furthermore, sheep were an abomination to the Egyptians. Yahweh's plan of salvation for Israel was not only to put down the gods of Egypt. God was calling out a people for Himself. This was His greater and higher purpose. For Israel to be a special people to the Lord they had to break with the associations they had in Egypt. They had to see that: He is over all gods (I John 3:8; John 12:31-33); that the lamb was slain and blood brought deliverance (John 1:29; Acts 20:28; Ephesians 1:7; I Peter 1:18-20; Revelations 5:9); this is family oriented salvation (Exodus 12:3,4,26). A final thought -- Jesus (Yeshua, Hebrew, means "salvation") instituted the New Covenant as a Passover meal. Today, the family of faith partakes of this meal, a sign of deliverance (Moshiach, Hebrew, means "deliverer") from the bondage of Egypt and from their gods (Luke 22:1-20). Jeremiah and Ezekiel both prophesied a new covenant which would include not only outward signs, but renewed hearts and minds. Anyone today can enter this New Covenant through acknowledging Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha Moshiach) as their Lord and Savior. I think the last couple of paragraphs sum it up, the whys and wherefores of it. But, your mileage and interpretation may vary.

OMG - just years of drama. Does it ever stop? I just can't imagine living my life like that, letters, who was right, who was wrong, betrayal, intrigue. You know what JAL and others? No one cares about these tiny little self-destructive, drama school sects. Enough, grow up already.

Garth, knock off the smug self-righteous attitude. We all know you hate God, Christ, the Bible - we get it. You've let us all know, you've made no bones about it. You always come and drop you little hate bombs in the doctrinal threads. Read my post again. I used Moses as someone, who, if the Bible is true - and I believe it is, was the head of a theocracy, but had the "signs" to back it up. Thus, the people followed. Other then him, every theocracy has been man, playing God. I then gave some examples of results that happen when men play god. As for the one to come, I believe He will. You, on the other hand agree with those Peter mentions - they scoff, and wonder where is his coming, its been so long... Good for you. He's either coming or he isn't. I believe he will someday, you believe its a myth. Fine. I don't hate you or come on with a nasty attitude towards you - but for some reason you feel you must. So, continue to rage against the machine Garth, just quit taking it out on everyone who believes differently than you.

It is scary. I think for a theocracy to work, the people would have to believe, without a doubt, that their "ruler" was called of God, and walked with God, as they believed Moses was. Yet, in order for him to be believed, Israel needed to see miracles, which he provided. Hey, won't the antichrist do the same thing someday? Without a true, called of God leader, a theocracy will quickly turn into creulty and death. Witness the Inquisition, Islam where it rules - any place where the leader walks with God, if you do not obey, since you will burn in hell or not enter into paradise, than the civil authorities have the right to torture and kill you since God hates you for not keeping his precepts - you are worthless to God. A natural man theocracy is always hell - although, people do seem to appreaciate the law and order aspects of it. Many times, that's how those religious leaders rise to power - promises of law and order. I too believe religion should stay out of government. That's also why no school prayer has never bothered me. Jesus said, pray privately in your closet, not in public for all to see. I think prayer is something personal and private, why a kid should be forced to pray in a public situation in school or whereever always puzzled me.