Sunesis

That email you received is a disgrace. Shellon, if it came through here, I would ask Paw to let you know who it is. If it went to your home computer, I'd get a computer person to trace. that can be done. I would not stop until I found out. Then I would repost that little ditty, with this coward's name attached at the bottom. I would not let this go. What they did was cowardly and they deserve to be outed.

Sorry, OT. Steve, thank you for inadvertently answering a question I had. You answered them with the Ezekiel verses :) I know, after Armeggedon, when Christ returns and judges the nations (the gentiles) and separates out the ones to enter into the Millenium (those who helped the Jew by their works) and enter into the land, and the ones who don't get to enter, I had wondered - where was Israel and the followers of Messiah, because I knew most of them had died and been martyred by this time - although there obviously was a remnant who did meet him. The verse answers it - God brings them to life to enter into the land. The first resurrection of the just. What I also find fascinating is they are flesh and bone, but no blood. Why? because they are now "powered" or energized by Spirt - the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and took him from the grave under the earth through the heavens to the Heavenlies. I believe, when Christ appeared to the Apostles after his resurrection and said, to Thomas I believe, "touch me, handle me, a spirit hath not flesh and bone as you see me." He did not have blood. His life force so to speak - was now spirit. I also think he was showing them what their new eternal bodies would look like. Just a thought. I may be wrong - but those verses in Ezekiel did clear something up for me. Thanks!

I really enjoy everyone's perspectives and posts here. For a youngster - Gen, you sure have a lot of wisdom. I love everyone's take on time and eternity because I am not "scientifically" or mathematically endowed. My sister asked me one time, well, how can Christ be reigning on earth, yet be our head in the heavenlies. I thought and said, string theory or quantum mechanics. We know now an atom can be two things at once. We also know the particle can be two places at the same time. I said, it must have something to do with that. I am enjoying the input - interesting to see where God and Christ has led us each after TWI. And - surprise - its all a bit different for each one of us.

Thanks for your thoughts Jeff. I can see we disagree on some things. I do not consider consider the mystery and the one body whose citizenship is in heaven "highmindedness." Why? Because the one body is for JEW and Gentile - if the Jew so desires and accepts Christ. There is no highmindedness in that - only grace. During the Acts period, the Gentile believers were still "second class" citizens. The wall in the temple was still up which separated them from their fellow believers - the Jew could enter the inner court and the Hellenistic believer had to wait outside. As Paul said - the "Jew First." For centuries, according to the flesh, the Jew was God's chosen people. Whether the Jew believed God or not, he was Gods. The finest, most gracious gentile was still a dog in the flesh while the most vile Jew was holy. Israel's blessings to come are the whole earth and the heavenly Jerusalem come down from heaven. In the FLESH and on the EARTH - the blessings belong to one group - Israel. Talk about some highmindedness that may have caused - for a Jew. Now, in the Millenium, the Jew comes into his inheritence and blessing - the earth is theirs, they rule with Christ over the nations. They are his servants and priests. The reason the Gentile and Jew - but mainly Gentile now as Israel refused to believe what God had sent - his Son - with all attendant signs, wonders and miracles - are seated in the Heavenlies and their blessings will be enjoyed in heavenly places is because: The earthly blessings belong to Israel. That slot is already filled, so to speak, by the Jew. The Gentile cannot take the Jew's place or inheritance. Thus, the Gentiles' slot and blessing must be somewhere else - and it is - the heavenlies. Jeff, you have appropriated Israel's promises, and promises to the Jews - to yourself. I think that is a grave error the church has and is making more and more. You know, I used to wonder why so many believers are so thrilled about entering into the millenium on earth and discount Paul. I pondered on it for a long time until it hit me - they are so excited because, that is where they are going. Not all Christians believe Paul's revelation of the mystery as revealed in his prison epistles - and that is their right. "Be it unto you according to your faith (believing)." But many do believe. But, there are some, who heed Paul's revelation, the Mystery, the "fullness" of the revelation given to Paul after Israel rejects its Messiah. Israel are now "Lo-Ammi" - not my people, and Christ now heads the body, this new man and is building a new creation for his habitation in the heavenly places. Some, in this age of grace, as they line up going to the earthly Kingdom, heard another call. Be it unto you according to your believing. Just as Abraham believed God when God showed him the multitude of stars and said, so shall your seed be, and because he believed he was counted righteous, so Paul, when he believed God's revelation given to him about a new creation/body in a place, not of the earth nor of the flesh (for that is Israel's inheritance), but of a place for a new creation in the heavenlies - Paul believed. And was translated from the Kingdom to the Heavenlies. There are bodies terrestial and bodies celestial. Israel will have their new eternal bodies for habitation on the earth and the new earth - eternal bodies terrestial. The church, the one body shall have its body - celestial - fit for habitation in a new heaven. Just as there are different families on earth and heaven, so there will be to come with some changes and additions. So, whether we agree or disagree, I see no highmindedness. I see different dispensations and different families and different dwellings - In my father's mansion are many dwellings, I go to prepare a place for you.

Jeff, I agree, the return and resurrection in Matthew, Thessalonians and Christ's return in Revelation are all the same event. You realize the implications of this now do you not? If they are the same event, then there is no "rapture" or "gathering together." If this is so, then Christians have been fed a lie. If, as many believe, the OT prophecies go into Matthew into the age of grace into the book of Revelation. This means, we will go through the tribulation as the event of Christ's return comes AFTER the tribulation and wrath. If its all the same dispensation/administration, let's all hope we have enough oil in our lamps when He does appear, and after all the destruction, those still standing after the tribulation and wrath - the survivors - will go out to meet him in the air when he comes. What a bleak, dreary, awful hope for a Christian - to know they are going through the 7 year tribulation and wrath, thus, prepare to hang tough. You need to look at - what was the early Jewish Christians and new Hellenistic/Gentile Christians' Hope? It was "Israel's Hope" as Paul states in Acts 26. He states he is in bonds for the "Hope of Israel." He teaches "nothing but what Moses, the Law and the Prophets teach." He always goes to "the Jew first." Romans, I&II Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians, I Timothy were written when he was teaching "Israel's Hope" and that's what the believers of that time were looking forward to - entering the time of the Book of Revelation - the Kingdom was at hand, He was coming back shortly to rule. He was coming back shortly to take his rightful place on the throne of David and Rule the Nations. The Gentiles were blessed to be grafted into the Olive tree (Romans) and were blessed and graced to be able to share in Israel's inheritance after being "aliens and strangers" from the promises and covenants of Israel. So, yes those are all the same incident and the Gentiles get to hang with Israel and share in Israel's hope during the "Acts period" as I will call it. So now, what is the answer for the Christian? We're told we need to be faithful, we're saved by our works, then we're told its grace, then we're..., etc. How do you tell them what they will go through if this is all one continuous administration? How do you reconcile these difficulties? I have thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours.

LOL!!! Godlets - I love it.

Whoa... Awesome post Geisha.

No, newbie. After your noxious comments and total disrespect for people here, you tell us first: 1. Why are you here? 2. What is your goal - what do you expect to teach people? 3. What is your motive? $. What are the results you desire or expect to see in people after you have taught them?

Well golly gee, you convinced me Composer!!! I have been so blind, but Composer has shown me the light after all these decades. Aren't you special. I wanna be special like you. Who of the christian faith should I hate first? Which ones make you vomit the most - maybe that group will be a good start.

Good point Gen. Why do people who hate God and his people come on biblical discussion forums? Really, what is their motive? Oh yeah, love the "compassion" - reserved only for those who hate God like he does. I'm sure all others make him vomit. Hypocrite.

I get the message Roy, I'll butt out. Sorry I bothered you.

Composer, how long were you in TWI for?

I did really say that. You should have seen their expressions, everyone kind of glanced at everyone else, little brains whirring... who here is possessed??? Not me, not me!!! I then said, I don't see anyone here who is possessed. I.e, if you believe what he said, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. It certainly did make people pause. But, after the pause, they continued to give him their allegence.

Chockful - great points also, along with Skyrider on why Geer didn't make his move then. Thanks. Skyrider - I am amazed too, that CG's spiritual "fire" in the end comes down to a franchised class. Someone shared on here I believe, years ago, that they paid the money to get the class and could never get enough people to take it - they lost a boatload. His class is not cheap. He does nothing, Geerites pay big bucks for permission to use it, and the money rolls in to him. Anyone know how much he charges for the "blessing" of being able to use it? Hiway, I believe Mrs. W. was on LCM's "side" pretty much. I know someone who heard they were having a Day in the Word or something, and they went to the hotel to see her just to say hi on a break as they had been very close. Mrs. W was pretty stern, told them to leave if they couldn't support the MOG (LCM). They were crushed. She wasn't too tolerant of the traitors I don't think.

Good points Skyrider. I remember our corps meeting after that corps week when we were back home. I was not a geerite, nor was I following LCM, or anyone at the point. I was on my way out. But they were talking about how great it was Geer had the copyrights. There were about 20 of us there. I looked around and said after all the talking was done, since I was a lowly peon and not a corps honcho all the bigwigs went first. But I said, did you ever think he's going to start his own ministry, now that he has the copyrights? I also said, you know, he stated that 90 percent of the corps is possessed. I look around this room, that means 18 of you should be possessed - sorry, but I don't think you are. Do not follow this man. He is not a nice person or what you think he is. They did not like my talk. I later found it was taped and the limb leader who was a Geer follower was not happy with my comments. After that, none of the corps would talk to me, or if they did it was grudgingly. They all went after Geer and became unbelieveably legalistic. But, ok, I see, he needed to get the copyrights. He needed to get things in place, ducks lined up. I still think, if he were as smart as he thought he was, he should have made his move then. He could have gotten LCM out. Sure, maybe he would have lost people, but HQ would have been his and many more than you think would have stayed. Over time, with LCM there, he lost the chance and LCM became more ensconced and the wagons circled around him. Geer would never be able to dislodge him. The moment was past. I guess that's it, he was an administrator - not a political player. He could have "won" if he had played his cards right.

Very good analysis Skyrider. I do have one question re the power grab. Why did Chris durng corps week after POP was read keep running back and forth to Gartmore, or demanding people come to him? Then there would be rumors - he's here, or no, he's not, yes he is so and so saw him - oh well, he left. If he wanted power he could have grabbed it right then and there. He had the trustees where he wanted them, and there were 5 at this point, he could have simply had them vote Craig out. He didn't do that. I think if he had, right then and there, come out and announced the news, gave a loving little speech, all would have gone for it. I felt later, he and LCM were in a struggle for control of HQ. By not grabbing it then - he forever lost. So, why do you think he played games and didn't strike then? After that, people had time to go home and think and it would not have worked.

I think in some ways, Hiway29's post sums it up for me. Also, I had seen CG in action - literally hissing at a woman and going non-stop, the hate was vile. I wondered, what is going on here? It then dawned on me he was enjoying it! He was a sadistic SOB and I knew right then and there he was not, nor ever would be a "man of god." He was arrogant and aloof in the corps, basically had no friends and made himself a carbon copy of VP. They laughed together during his ordination - it was all very funny dontcha know, two special peas in a pod. I think of Goebbels and Hitler when I think of those two. Anyway, here comes this whiney, self-absorbed, look at me, oh, the struggles I've had to put up with, pity paper and I just thought, you bastard. Also, calling 90% of the corps possessed (I think he did that in one of his meetings) - then showing up, running to scotland, showing up again - the games he played. As to what was in the paper - basically dissing everyone - I think I realized - these people really are asshats. I'd had my suspicions, but now I knew. I know many people felt betrayed, the curtain was pulled back and the man behind the curtain, VP, was just a vindictive little man. People were now given permission in their minds to leave. I know people who had spent years, given up their homes, comfortable jobs, even spouses who now felt angry and betrayed - we gave our lives for this???!!! For many it was a first time glimpse behind the scenes and they did not like what they saw. Here was the man of God even insulting and putting down his own family for public display - what kind of a person does that? Also, as George said, people asked and asked for specifics - well, what exactly have the trustees done wrong? What have we done wrong? How can anyone expect to "change" or fix things if no one knew what it was that needed changing. It was all vague generalities. Here's the thing, you had a generation who had gotten involved at 15, 16 through early 20s, and after all those years they were now grown up - early thirties and more. I think, we finally just had enough of the bull. POP exposed it, and we said - we're outta here. Time to make a real life for ourselves. And most of us have.

I tend to agree 86-89 was more like one exodus. But to me - 86 was the "en masse" year - a huge chunk left. I went back in '87 to the Rock and corps week and realized there really wasn't anyone there I knew. Most of my 7th corps people were gone, plus many others I knew. I felt like a stranger. I was already mentally gone but was there out of "duty." I did go to the '88 one knowing full well it was my last. I think I wanted to take one last look around. There was really no one there I knew anymore. I spent two days and left - didn't bother finishing the corps week or the rock. I saw it for what it was and knew I was truly done. I think, for me, it was a closure thing. I wanted to see it one last time. I was 33 and had been visiting since I was teen in High School, had been on staff there, etc. So, it was a goodbye thing. Which was good as I never wanted over the years to go back and see it again. But, 86 after POP rocked our world. I remember telling my coordinator at evaluations I could not guarantee him I'd be around the next year. I think the majority booked in '86 and others felt like they could now do it safely. You have to remember the intense "peer pressure." But now, it was ok to leave. I think that was a move of God. I tried talking to the young kids there just starting out in the corps, and realized they were so sold out to LCM. I then realized, they would have to grow up like we did. That's when I think you saw the mass exodus after the Allen suit. Ten years or so, they had grown up and were now in their early 30s. Also a move of God I believe. I really think there were just two. People there now will never leave - unless forced.

Did they ever stop shopping? They must have storage rooms of "stuff" from the Lima and Dayton Malls, and from ones all over the country they stop at during their travels. When I was on staff at HQ, every weekend, off to the mall went Emogene in her station wagon. I'd be in payroll and the note would come in "I am going shopping, I need $500 please." This was from DM and others. This was back in '83 or so, which would be like $1,000 in today's money. That's all the top "hot dog" ladies ever did - shop and hang out at each other's houses. They shopped because they were bored - nothing else to do out there in the sticks except ride a motorcycle on a nice day, party, and shop every weekend. Penworks, that must have sucked, cleaning the great DM's car. On a serious note, did she have any friends left by that time when you were still there? Or was it by then, her and Rosie against the world? I knew when her BFF MG (used to be M*&cia Fa**k) left HQ, things must be bad.

Steve, I ran across the Overthrow of the Foundation idea from two books I read a few years ago: The Earth's Earliest Ages, by Pember, and The Invisible War by Donald Barnhouse. I've always liked that concept. Both available from Amazon. Both excellent books. It took a while to meander over there in my walk. I believe God gives us ideas, thought, musings, that if we follow up on, we are pleasantly surprised. Interesting writing on Paul. I look at the word "Logos" as an idea that has been given form. Like, the invisible man, you can't see him until he drapes himself with a blanket or something - then he is manifest - you can see him, his form. Christ was the "Logos" given form - the idea (the mind of God - his purposes and desires), made manifest - in the flesh. The flesh was the blanket, so to speak, giving shape to the Logos.

With all due respect Spectrum, who cares when this thread will end? Most people here have enjoyed reading the posts and having their say. Sure, threads meander here, there, everywhere. Its the Body of Christ talking amongst itself freely. This freedom was pretty much squelched in TWI. This thread will end when it ends and not until. We do not need a self-appointed arbitrator to tell us its time to end it now. Have a great day!

I'm not going to address whether people think they are inspired, inerrant or whatever, people will have their own opinion. I will just address what I think about the order of the NT cannon. Its just something I've kind of come up with over the years. Its also, really kind of simple. I look at the Book of Acts. Every single Book in the NT fits within the framework and timeline of Acts - except the Pauline "prison epistles." So, to me, Acts is a timeline. Christ was at the door ready to return, the Kingdom he would usher in was at hand. So, I look at the chronological timeline of Acts and the chronological order of the NT. For instance, we read about the Corinthians in Acts, people mentioned by name. We look at the Book of I Cor. and its written the same time and mentions the same people. So, on the Acts timeline, I paste Corinthians on there. Then, hey, mission to the Galations in Acts, put the Book of Galations on the Acts timeline there. And so on. To me, the NT books are appendages to Acts. They give more detail as to what was going on. Then, you hit Acts 28:28. Israel is set aside. Their rejection of their Redeemer, King and Kingdom is complete. its over for the time being. So, now you have the Pauline "prison epistles" written AFTER the Book of Acts. As the above poster said, there is a "new" revelation given to Paul. In the "Acts Epistles" as I like to call them, the ones that are in the Acts Chronological timeline - you do see Paul quote loads of OT scripture. Why? Because this was Israel's time and Israel's hope - he and the 12 Apostles were commissioned with opening the eyes of Israel and Gentiles were welcome to join in and become joint-heirs with Israel. But, it was still about Israel's Hope. Remember, Paul did not even receive revelation about the "One New Man" being created to abide in the Heavenlies during the time of the Book of Acts. It was revealed AFTER Acts 28:28. Thus, he was not teaching this in the Acts period because it had not yet been revealed. It was only after Israel's rejection, that later "Plan B" so to speak was revealed. That's why, you are correct. In Paul's epistles written in the years after the close of Acts (Eph., Col., Phil., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon - the "prison epistles") there is virtually no mention of the OT prophecies and prophets - why? Because Paul's revelation regarding new "heavenly citizens" came after the Book of Acts. This new heavenly population was a mystery "kept secret/hidden from before the foundation of the world." No one knew. Israel is in abeyance and Paul's mission is now to the Gentiles. Here Paul teaches those who believe will have a dwelling literally in the heavens. Whoa! That's not in the OT. Our blessings will be enjoyed - in the Heavenlies. Just as Israel's blessings will be enjoyed on the earth, we will literally have to be in the heavenlies to enjoy our blessings, as that is where our blessings are laid up in store for us - in the heavenlies. This teaching, this new revelation which is in Eph. was mindblowing to some and, since it could not be proved from the OT (because it wasn't there), many people turned away from him. Now, you also have the Book of Revelation which some think was written later after the Acts period, or some earlier - during the Acts period. I almost tend to think earlier, since Revelation is Israel's Hope - the return of the King in Glory and the establishment of His Kingdom on earth which was what they were looking for and talked about during Acts and the Epistles written during that period. I see the prison epistles as a parenthesis. If Israel had accepted the Apostles preaching their King would have returned and they would have stepped directly into the Book of Revelation - those events would have started. So, to me, Acts is the clothesline so to speak, and the NT books hang off of it in nice chronological precision, and enhance Acts with more detail - with the exception of Paul's Prison Epistles - they are after and beyond to a different group. And Revelation, as I said, I'm not sure where that one should be, but it is fascinating reading.

You asked, I thought it was a serious question. Ok, no more preaching.

Well, we do have over 30,000 Christian denominations, so I don't think you're going to see all Christians agreeing. I imagine that's why it is more important to God that we keep the unity of the Spirit - not the flesh. Sometimes I gotta admire the Catholic Church - they may not agree but after 1800 years or so - its still one church plugging along. Irish eyes, basically, the Bible has three divisions of people - Jew, Gentile, One Body (Church - age of grace). I was talking about "believers." Paul was sent to the Gentiles. The Gentiles of the world were blessed through Abraham. That's why Romans is so amazing. The Jews said - we are God's chosen and righteous under the law. They had been under the law for so long, they had forgotten that Abraham was called, made righteous and justified by faith a few hundred years before the law - i.e., when he was a gentile. So Paul in Romans says, I know this is hard for my fellow Jews to believe, but the Gentiles are now "grafted in." They can share fully in your Hope. Remember Abe? All is takes is simple faith - he was made righteous because he believed - not by the Law. Gentiles do not have to do the law to be righteous. Concerning "unbelievers" - here's the bottom line for me. We know, there is coming one day, a NEW Heaven and a New earth. It will be a brand new habitat. Maybe the laws of physics will be different - who knows, but it will be different. That's been the whole message of the Bible - a new Kingdom is coming, that's what Jesus preached and the Apostles. Those who live then will need a new body designed for this new place. When someone is born again he is sealed with spirit - he will have that eternal, immortal, different, changed, glorious new body. There will be no sin. God is Holy. He sent his Son to make us worthy. An "unbeliever", like a vegetarian who is repulsed by meat, is repulsed by God. For all people, eventually, a choice needs to be made - spend eternity with God - or no. Many will choose - no. Is that unfair of God? No. Why? because it would be unfair of Him to force that person to believe and love him. To force one to believe is coercion and grossly unfair and oversteps a man's free will. Will God "torture" them? No, God does not torture. But, all will see his glory. Every knee shall bow (whether they like Him or not). The only remorse one will have, who freely choose not to be with God for eternity, will be gnashing of teeth after they have seen glory - despair for what could have been, for what was rejected, for what was deliberately missed out on.

I haven't forgotten your question in doctrinal Robert, its a big topic, I need to find you a couple of good links. But, for me, I will explain. There is a phrase God uses a lot: Foundation of the World. It his dividing line so to speak, like bc/ad is for us on earth - before Christ, after Christ. Foundation of the World literally means "overthrow of the cosmos (Kosmos in greek). It is his dividing line for things that happened before, and things that happened later. For God, Gen. 1:1 and before - here creation had not fallen, angels hadn't fallen, all is still perfect. This is "before the Foundation of the World." From Gen 1:2 forward, after destruction, things have fallen, the earth is restored again and made habitable for man, that is "from" or "since" the Foundation of the World. Now, we can see certain groups of believers called in the Bible, from which period God purposed them, when they were called and where their eternal life will be. There are only 2 groups, or beings called from "before" the Foundation of the World. Christ, and us - those of us living in the age of Grace. God purposed us in eternity - Gen. 1:1 and before. Israel was called "from" or since the Foundation of the World - from Gen. 1:2 on. They will inherit the earth someday. Then you have the faithful "remnant" of Israel, like Abraham who looked for a heavenly city, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews talks about these people and there are others. This Heavenly Jerusalem will descend to earth from heaven someday and it will be the abode of the Jews who really believed - they didn't just rest on their laurels because they were God's chosen. I consider this group, the "Bride" - some will disagree and say the church today is the "Bride." Anyway. We see: 3 groups called in the Bible: Jew, Bride, Church which is the one body, the new man in the age of grace. 2 different time callings: Christ and Church of age of Grace - before the Foundation of the World. Israel and remnant - since or From the foundation of the World. 3 different spheres for eternity for each group: Jew - land, earth. Bride (faithful remant) - heavenly Jerusalem. One body - Heavenly places. So, each group has a different calling in time, a different hope, and a different abode for eternity. Its an interesting study. Ex-cath. I would never, ever put Paul above Christ - just sayin' :) All I'm saying is Israel rejected their Messiah. God reveals "Plan B" to Paul (thank God, that God had one - that's why its grace - he didn't have to - he could have let mankind stew in their own juices as they and the world "lies in the arms of the wicked one"). Its like God took a bunch of mangy mutts, bathed them and washed them (with Christ's blood), fluffed us up, clothed us, and said - "Come In" Welcome to my home. Whoa! That's grace. Its like, have you ever taken in a stray animal? You open the door for them to come in and they are like, really? I can come in? I can hasz cookie? (just kidding on that one). But, they are so grateful, someone allowed them in. Someone took them in. Grace. I believe in this day and age, one of the Holy Spirits functions is to give each individual the opportunity to believe. I believe every human is gently called, but not all respond. You responded :) Irish, it is about community! The One Body, the Unity of the Spirit (note its regarding spirit - I don't think God expects unity of politics, sports, liking the same things - we are all individuals). TWI failed in this aspect - we were all expected to think in lockstep. "Renewed mind" was what was used to beat this into us.