Sunesis

No Nato, you aren't - we have quite a few hardcore aetheists here who used to be faithful TWI members. Hang around, you'll run into each other :)

Chockfull, I know Sk*p M**quite, who recently passed away went through the same thing. For years he wouldn't touch his sax - not God's will. He finally picked it up again, played with old buddies Tower of Power and was blessed. I was always glad he got back to doing what he loved.

I know exactly what you are going through. I was a musician and played lead guitar starting in high school open house bands, onto Berklee, into the corps and in the TWI corps dance bands, then staff bands, etc. I hated Way prod. VP had a vision of Lawrence Welk and had a hard time relating to us young hippies. Oldskool, I was then bugged for a few years I should put down my guitars because "God has better things for you." Right... Finally, after intense pressure on staff, I sold my '68 SG and a couple of other guitars worth a fortune now. It was driven into me that God did not want me doing music. It was with much regret I sold them. In fact, when I brought them in to sell to my friend who ran the local music store, I couldn't tell him the real reason I was selling them. We had been buddies and went to the clubs to see bands together on my down time on staff at Emporia. I had quite the "double life" while on staff there. Anyway, he was my friend, I told him I was selling them to get money for a motorcycle. He then said, keep your guitars, I'll lend you the money for the bike. I was stunned - a natural man offering to front me a loan and almost begging me to keep those guitars. Long story short, a few years later, I left TWI and moved to NYC. It took me two full years to think that maybe, just maybe, it was ok with God if I played again. I went to a pawnshop, picked up a guitar and started going to the blues jams on 14th Street at Dan Lynch's - the only blues club in the City. It went great. I then had to brush up on my rock, since I had been in TWI and on staff for so long - guitar players had come a long way since Clapton (who I could play note for note). So I woodshedded for a few months, learned EVH, Randy Rhodes, George Lynch, etc. - just learned their styles and licks. I ended up playing metal/hardcore/thrash in all - probably every single club in NYC - those were fun times - Metal up your a## (Metallica) in the '80s and early '90s in NYC - what an awesome time to be there! So, my point is - GO FOR IT! If it makes you happy - do it - enjoy it! My Brother is good friends with Billy Falc8on who is in Nashville and writes for Bon Jovi and has a lovely house in Nashville, with the pool, etc. with the royalties he's made from writing with Jon. It took awhile to get out of the TWI "waybrain" about their whole convoluted take on music. Venture forth... For me, God has "repaid the years the locusts have eaten" (Joel), and I have a nice little "vintage" collection and my '80s Kramer collection. God is good :)

Java Jane, I agree with that. Scientific studies have shown that when people SIT a certain portion of the brain kind of shuts off. Maybe its something that calms and lets an idea or thought from God come through all of our static. Linguistics researchers have also studied glossilalia(sic) as they call it. They have shown that it is not a language, as language is defined. No syntax, and other things its missing (I forget what right now). So, we know its not a "real" language. So, that's why I believe the Acts apostles did speak in another tongue, or as the other poster said, the people heard their language as the Apostles were speaking - that is also miraculous in itself. But, I would almost discount that, because throughout history, even to modern day, people have heard their language spoken by someone SITing - not just in a TWI setting, but missionaries, etc. But, I also note that many people were born again as children and automatically SIT'ed. It was just a "natural" thing to do, and many of us now, still spontaneously do it - such as I do if I'm particularly happy or excited about something - or just plain blessed :) So, I think there may be something to it, but who knows what - a calming agent, a way of letting God's thoughts come through - who knows, as I said - I don't know what it is.

Yes, us NYers were raised under Steve Heefner's ministry. But, many people don't know that Steve and Jim Doop were best friends growing up in California - from little boys in childhood through their times with TWI. I always found it interesting that these two grew up together and each had a wonderful ministry. Jim on the west coast, Steve on the east. They both then left TWI after realizing they had been used by VP and I believe both went back to California. Later, Jim went back to TWI for a bit and this caused a rift between him and Steve. That is the only time I ever saw Jim. He was traveling with VP and was at a corps meeting. We were in a hotel - and I totally forget the event. But I remember looking at him thinking, so that's who he is. I did not talk to him though.

"Beautifully out there" - awesome, I love it Excie. You have a wonderful way of describing things :) As I said somewhere in the early part of this thread. I had been researching - or learning about the "Jesus Movement" and realized, hey, these things don't happen too often. I had always wished I could talk to one of God's men who lived earlier who led the great revivals. But then I thought, hey, we have living leaders here, let's talk to them. So, I called Jim because he had known Lonnie Frisbee - the kid who won so many thousands of young people to Christ in California - and, who, of course, was latched onto by older men to get their ministries going (Martin, Wise). But, Frisbee was the catalyst. Doop was also one of those men in the early days of the movement. I did not know him but I wanted to know about the men in that movement, what it was like - I wanted a historical account. Talking with him was profound, that's the only way to put it. We talked for hours. I was blessed enough to talk to him twice and have always been thankful I got to talk with him before he died. What a heart and love for God he had - still. If you are members of netflix, they have a documentary that was made on Lonnie and the movement. Steve Heefner is interviewed with his wife, and Doop is in there a bit. I suggest you rent it if you are interested in knowing more. Just searh for "Lonnie Frisbee."

I still believe SITing in Acts was the proper thing. In other words, they were told to spread the good news. They didn't have time to learn lots of new languages - thus, they were able to speak in another tongue via Holy Spirit miraculously. You still hear of it happening this way, still today. I don't think what we were taught to do was SITing. But, I don't know what it is. I know if I'm particularly blessed or joyous, I'll spontaneously do it. I figure - well - I don't know what I figure, but I don't really worry about it. If I do it fine. But its not something I consciously do and "drive" myself to do like when I was in TWI.

I did not mean to start any disagreements or arguments. I will say that Geisha, is probably one of the best, articulate Bible "teachers" I've read and whose posts I have enjoyed. She knows it, and I believe, lives it. I also very much respect Tom and Chockful. All of us see things differently and what works best for our lives right now. My sister just loves her Baptist Church, and I've gone with her to it. Its very nice. But, just not for me currently. Maybe I will go one day, who knows. I value Geisha's input immensely and think we need to just stand back a bit and agree to disagree :)

Tom and Chockfull, thank you for your sharings. I don't spend much time around young people, but my neice goes to a wonderful Christian College in Colorado and loves it. My nephew is taking 7 months before his freshman year of college to go with a group doing ministry in Thailand, then Turkey. I know kids love their youth ministries, and Tom, that must be awesome with the young believers in your class. That is just wonderful to hear. Sounds like you've done a lot of different church exploring too. Ham - yeah, it is insanity doing the same things expecting a different result :) Oh well, I've decided to pull back from that area a bit. It is what it is and will be what it will be. Geisha, I have read quite a few different Christian sites and forums over the years on the 'net. The one I look at now is one of the biggest on the net. You still see the drama, the questions, is our Pastor leading us to hell??? (just kidding - but close) Should we leave our church? Is our church becoming emergent? It almost seems that people are being called out of their churches many times. I see the same drama and politics I saw in TWI. I have a dear friend who is a Methodist Pastor, has been for a couple of decades and recently received her Ph.d from Oxford. We were talking and she said its a terrible problem as church attendance has been way down now for years. Not just her church only, but in general. I know the bigger, or mega churches use music, bands, plays, productions, etc. to get people there. It just seems that so many churches want to grow their church, but not "offend" the new people. So the teachings are kept simple. I asked two of my friends, what does your church do for people who want to learn more. That's where small bible study groups either at the church or at someone's home comes in. So, I don't know, maybe I overstated. My boss, who has loved his church for 13 years recently told me he is thinking of leaving with his family. He feels it is getting off track. Maybe its just that people come and go from churches as their lives and needs change.

Hi Geisha :) Arrrrggggghhhhh - I just wrote a huge answer to you and it disappeared. Its getting late, I'll start over in the morning. That is so annoying.

Fabulous posts Tom and Chockful. I live my life looking for Christians - the ones in life, people you meet. For example, at my job, I have "found" the Christians. It evolved over time. We hang out, have lunch, occasionally talk about things and I end up sharing what God has taught me lately, or this or that. They think I am some kind of genius - I laugh, but they ask, how do you know so much? I tell them I pray and ask God to teach me and to show me Christ. It slowly dawned on me - what I have is basically a fellowship - its just Christians fellowshipping, at lunch, in the hallways, the guy from the mailroom who gives me the mail, etc. I used to think, well, maybe I should find a church, but my family, friends, even neighbors - the Christians are out there. I just ask God to find them for me. One thing about churches I have noticed, is they are so intent on "growing" their church, they have shows, music, plays, get lots of people, then, don't want to offend them so teach a watered down gospel, or, continually teach "milk." the older ones drift away because they are ready for meat and there is none. The Lord knows - I'll open my mouth if someone's heart is prepared. That's another thing - its talking to people whose hearts are prepared. When Christians witness to "natural man" for lack of a better word - no wonder they get annoyed and feel Christians are pushy people who, and tell them to butt out. I don't blame them. The Holy Spirit prepares peoples' hearts. I believe God can show us who is ready and would like to know. Like my homeless guy who I buy the street newspaper from and slip him money here and there - I just "knew" we were children of the same God and every morning he likes a little Word - a thought, and we go on our way. He is an old, homeless black man (who recently now has a place with a family member) named James, but he is so faithful selling his street newspaper. Christians are everywhere. I think, those of us outside the walls, make our own fellowship whereever we go, with the people we meet outside the gate (I love that analogy). Now, I have a question for you, does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.

Chockful, that's why, after TWI, I have never been interested in "joining" a church. I know others love it, and good for them. But I just can't get involved with another "organization." I read other Christians websites and the drama about their churches, the problems they have with each other, or "is my church going emergent?" or "is our pastor leading us astray" etc., I see lots of drama. I value my relationship with Christ and will just enjoy him and leave it at that. Ham, believe it or not, I was never into politics at all until Katrina. I remember telling my sister, everything that guy touches turns to s**t. I was angry enough to vote straight ticket democrat in 2006 for congress to neuter him. Believe it or not, I was registered independent and many, many times never bothered to vote. I think its more that I feel the country is going off the tracks and off the rails and headed for something terrible - just a feeling in my bones, and I don't think "spending" like a drunken sailor, either under Bush or now is the cure. I just feel a disaster is coming, that's all I know. Financially, we are on the brink. I think if 2010 the elections don't change our course, we will be a radically different country. So, I don't think its the political people who bug me, but more policies that will come back to bite us. I could ask the same question - why is someone a progressive or a liberal? I think though, that those of us in the poli forum, in some ways enjoy the debate. They will tell you conservatives are mean people and conversvatives think libruls are delusional, but, in some ways, the discussion is rough and tumble and, for me, anyway - fun. The trick is not to get sucked into it and take it "seriously." I guess, I have always felt we are a "fallen" race. I believe mankind is not "inherently" good. Others, who believe people are inherently good and have a spark of the divine, will believe man and government are the answer and to be followed, almost religiously. So, its two views and never the twain will meet. :) But I am pulling back from there. For those who know me, I'm not a nasty nut, nor a political maven or junkie. Sometimes, its just fun to play on the poli forum. It works both ways, I see people there and think - how did they get so blinded? I'm sure they think the same of me. But - I do not take it seriously. Its the 'net. I hope that answers your question.

Watch it Twinky, I called him a troll his first day here and everyone got upset and angry - Roy, who invited him here, castigated me thoroughly. Meanwhile, when I asked Mr. Composer his name, his website, to let us see some people and their "testimonies" of what Composer had done for him - there was nada, zip. He's got nothing - except taunts to total strangers and his own terror of God (if he didn't care about God - he wouldn't be making a lifetime railing against him - most people who don't believe have better things to do with their time). So, some dude, we never heard of, who's never been around TWI is supposed to be someone important? Meh, he's a noone and has nothing and when asked to show us his results via other people, a website, his educational credentials, he backed away quickly. Don't feed the trolls is excellent advice.

Tom is correct, it was a ministry run by Doop and Heefner. Twice VP came to Rye for a short visit, I was at both of those meetings in Tim Bi**p's living room. Other than that, we basically met, then went about our business. Yes, he had taught the class, but he was on a farm somewhere - the Heefners were our leaders - make no mistake about that. It was their love and evangelism that brought us to the Bible. It just spread like wildfire. Witnessing was easy: Hey, want to come to a fellowship and learn about God? Sure, when is it? It was that easy because I believe the Holy Spirit had been preparing the hearts of young people in the midst of the hippie/drugs/new religions/etc. They were already prepared. All someone had to do was tell them about Christ and they were ready to learn. I moved before the advanced class. But, to me, the first thing that started to spoil it was being told I now must fellowship in Larchmont at so and so's house and not in Rye. I slowly started to drift away because I wasn't wild about so and so, had enjoyed the larger groups and felt like they were starting to isolate us from the main body by splitting us into these little groups without our friends. Its another story how I got back in when we moved from NY to Ohio going into my senior year of high school. But, it really was free, easy, a move of God, no rules under the Heefners - just the Word. There was an unfettered, free time there...

Soul Searcher - it was. I can't tell you how many good ideas were quashed or ruined by "leadership." I can't see why anyone would still be giving their lives and allegiance to TWI, or any religious or political figure for that matter. So, this summer jam, do towns people come to it? It would have been a great way to get to know their neighbors. Or is it "closed corporation" so to speak - only TWI people?

Wow - thanks for bringing this up again - its always wonderful to see what happened, where we were, and those of us still here. :)

I don't think so Mark. I too looked at universalism and believed it for a long time, and eventually, according to scripture had to discard it. Maybe there's a reason most people have rejected it. Granted, its a wonderful, feel good belief. If it makes you feel better, and to more easily "believe" in God - go for it.

Gen, the Sydney House was a beautiful estate, lovely wood interior, stairway, floors railings, lovely bedrooms upstairs. It was TWI's historical museaum and fine art, or pieces of note VP collected along the way or that people gave him. It was also used for weddings, receptions, banquets, special events, various department dinners. It really was lovely - and was taken care of well and got a lot of use. I have some fond memories of weddings and a few other things I went to there.

Twinky, I felt so sorry for you in-residence people. The corps had changed a lot in a couple of years since I had graduated (from the 7th) that, watching the 9, 10, 11, 12 - I was really having my doubts about the program. You guys had enough to do. There would have no reason to worry about staff. No Soul searcher, no one would have fired us - see, it was TWI "culture" so to speak, at least at HQ and Emporia. As long as we performed our jobs, they really didn't care what we staff did on our time. Besides, the President, Dr. Wierwille was an alcoholic - Drambuie. The 7-up he drank in the morning for breakfast - a little Drambuie livened that up. Fortified to face the day, the coffee he sipped on all day - Drambuie sure gave it a zing! In the evening, he'd keep the bottle, the corps thought he was just having a little evening "nightcap" - no one had a clue by then he was buzzing heavily. Sometimes, at home, he and CG (one of his aides) would just drink it out of the bottle, as I have been told by reliable people who knew him well. Also, many of us rode motorcycles - what else are you going to do in those remote places for fun? The rides were fun though. OldSkool, or who ever said it, ok, I did not know that Way builders had been disbanded. I'm sure though, if DM had demanded, she could have had a house with privacy. But, too late, she couldn't have one built now without questions. Does her apartment have a secret underground shuttle to Rosie's house?

Soul searcher, let me tell you, as one who was on staff for 5 years at emporia and HQ - yes, we did party, and we partied hard. If the corps in training had had any idea of how hung over their work coordinators were - well, that's why there was lots and lots of coffee. When I was at emporia, we had the new corps coordinator move in. The staff was partying, as usual that evening, the corps was in class, we were in my room and an adjoining room, and I had gotten a couple of my buddies, who were still in residence, out of class and they were partying with us - he walked in, his first night there - and was astounded. To his credit, he never stopped the parties because his wife also liked them, she would borrow my fifth of JD when she ran out while she was privately entertaining her married boy toy she had picked out - of course, no one was supposed to figure it out, they were "just good friends." I truly think the staff partied so hearty was because, after hours, what else is there to do in the middle of Kansas or in the corn fields of Ohio?? The Way house was built by Bo Reahard while he was in residence (1st or 2nd corps I believe). The deal was, he'd build it and if he ever left TWI would buy it from him. He never got paid. It was very nice, I was friends with he and his wife and went over there quite often. I also wonder, does any one here remember Dean Don's house that was custom built on a beautiful wooded lot a couple of miles from HQ? I wonder who's in that one now. Also, I am surprised Donna did not get her own house or have TWI build one for her - why did she settle for an apt. in Founder's hall? I'm surprised - all the people around. I find that odd. Even I, this greasespot has a house.

When I was there for a short stint, my job dept. was in the depths of the basement (upholstery shop). Sometimes I'd go there after a class to finish something up or work on something. There quite a few times late at night - it was just creepy. You felt like something was there - watching. I eventually quit going there at night. It was just a vibe. I still believe there are places spirits like hanging out, maybe something happened in a place once, or, I don't know. I don't believe in dead people haunting things or being ghosts, but sometimes, there are some places, things or people that give off a "vibe" and not a pleasant one. To me, all of Rome City gave off an old, unpleasant vibe - it just wasn't right. That's the only way I can explain it. Many people love it and have fond memories, but I was glad to be out of there. I never liked it. It reminded me of an old, smelly, bedridden old person that we spruced up. Strange mind pic, I know, but that's what it reminded me of.

Steve, do a word study on Shoel or gravedom. yes, the flesh dies. But, the soul goes down to the grave. You have lots of dead souls in Revelation asking for vengence, and being told they must wait a bit longer until their brothers have also been martyred. When Jesus used the parable of Lazarus, if they were truly, dead, I doubt he would have been talking about what Lazarus and the rich man were going through. If you study the souls in the grave/sheol/hell, you will note that they are conscious and self-aware. But yes, the flesh goes back to the dust and is no more. I can no longer buy VP's belief in "soul sleep." I believe souls are quite aware, I believe when Christ was resurrected out of Sheol he was the given the authority (keys) to the gates of Sheol. Not one believer, now that Christ was resurrected, would ever be again separated from their Savior. I believe when his children die, they are with him, but will not yet receive their new, resurrection body until the appointed time.

Just as I thought. You are full of hot air. You have nothing.

Well, if you're so awesome, where's your website? Where are the posted testimonials of people you've delivered? If you're so amazing and have done all these things, what's your name so we can research you. What are your professional credentials? Right now, I see some new person talking smack and incredibly rude, and declares every one here who believes the book a failure. Really, if this has been your thing for 50 years - where's your site and testimonials proclaiming this purported deliverance you bring the deluded masses? Why should we believe you? Why should we respect you? Show us your credentials and testimonials of people you have delivered.

They may not make much, but when I worked there in payroll - what most people didn't know is that they just write a little note - I'm going shopping, I need $500. That's what they did, I don't know if they do it now. They take the low salary to make themselves look humble, while secretly raiding the piggy bank. I am pretty sure, though I could never prove it, they they had two sets of books, just in case the IRS wanted to take a look.