Sunesis

Refiner, you are not alone in your thoughts. You need to go to Danny Maher's site on Marcion. Marcion was an early Christian who is basically the one responsible for our NT - keeping the Pauline Epistles together. He and many early Christians believed the OT God was not the true God, but a demiurge - another God. They also believed that Christ came to earth representing the TRUE God to redeem mankind from this God's power so we could worship the true God. Of course, once the Catholic church started consolidating, they called him, and anyone else who disagreed a "heretic." I have found, that anyone the early Catholic church condemned as heretic, is usually worth reading. Marcion believe the Gospel of John and the Pauline epistles are what we are to believe and point to the true God, not the OT God of wrath. There are many great articles on this site. Go Here: www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3827/library.html I find it very intersting. I just tried the link - I don't know why it doesn't work, but that is the address. Or search "Marcion."

I was one of those people who really enjoyed using the greek, hebrew, etc. - all the research materials. I did a lot of word studies and looked up a lot of stuff I questioned. I found out a lot of stuff they taught wasn't right. I remember realizing the whole Athletes of the Spirit thing was off the wall. Also, the adversary doesn't "compete" or play fairly, why should we? I never did get that. Also realized "believing" was wrong, should be trusting in God to bring something about his way and in his time, not instructing him what we'd like, get a mind picture and "believe" for it. Other, simple things like that. A couple of other things I found were wrong I did ask VPW about them and he would just say, go read such and such again. I would, and the answer was not there, but he'd ask me, did you read it, and I'd say, yes, thank you. I didn't tell him, the answer is not there. I just quit asking him about anything. I always prepared my own teachings, never used the tapes or Way Mag - just, whatever God had put on my heart that week. But in those days you could do that, and were encouraged to. By the mid-80s it started to change. Actually, in a lot of ways, I learned much more on my own with the concordances, etc. than I did with many of the teachings.

I got one of those letters too. I've heard of Belize, but I didn't know who these people were. Figured they must be ex-twi. I just tossed it.

Excath - I remember that phrase from that poem - if no one is left to love you, you will know that I have died. VP just loved to use that. I never did believe it, did you? The sad thing is, that lots of corps did believe it.

Yes Refiner, behind closed doors with his corps, VPW's verbal abuse could be scathing. One of the worst I ever saw was during a corps meeting at HQ while on staff. This poor 6th corps guy had the nerve to doze off during one of VP's long winded ramblings. VP saw it and went ballistic, and just humiliated this poor guy - he'd never amount to anything spiritually, and on and on. Poor guy was gone the next day. You had to have been there - it was really shocking. His henchmen followed and also did the same thing. LCM was notorious for verbal castigation of corps people publically. Then, what got me, was once a year or so, in our monthly corps household newsletters, VP would write a column about how much he loved us and if he ever hurt any of us, how sorry he was. I used to think, yeah, right. Kept us on our toes it did - you never knew who was going to be next or singled out. I watched the leader of Europe, CG, go off on an Irish woman at corps week one year, except he just kept going, and going, and going, until he was hissing at her, and kept going. It dawned on me he was enjoying this immensely. I think VP and the people who ended up as his top leadership were birds of a feather, there was a sadistic streak there. In most cases, people keep things like that hidden. But in a position of power, things come out that normally wouldn't.

I'm really enjoying some of your "literals according to usage" regarding the letters - LOL. Reading this, I thank God I don't have to speak like that ever again. It really is sad looking at the Way rag and letters from an "outsiders" perspective now.

She's still in Manhattan. A very dedicated Geerite.

No, I don't think it was a prearranged signal to get someone out. The woman who came in was one of VP's "girls" - I thought it was more of a possible threesome that didn't happen. With Mrs. VPW entering, she may have seen someone go in and decided to break it up. I know from other people, she hated what he was doing, and if she liked that person, possibly decided to intervene.

I think one reason the adultry thing was kept quiet among a lot of women was the "lockbox" doctrine. When I was called into VP's motorcoach out of the blue one sunday, about an hour before he was to teach the SNS, I was an innocent, young 1st year corps person. I had no idea what he wanted. But, since he was the MOG, most people were a little flattered that he'd want to see you. Anyway, sitting there in only his bathrobe he asked a few casual questions, then he got serious. He told me that what he was going to tell me was lockbox, and that he had never told this to anyone else - I was never to tell. He was very emphatic about that. He stressed highly it would be a betrayal of him if I told and I could not betray him. So now I'm thinking, uh-oh, I don't know if I really want to hear this big secret. He then proceeded to tell the physical reason why he could not have sex with his wife. Because he now can't have sex with his wife, he then went on to explain in graphic detail what he would like to do to me sexually. I was stunned - we're talking porno here. I just stared at him. In this situation, you really can't quite believe what you just heard. I'm thinking to myself, is this some kind of a joke? He really doesn't mean this, right? What is going on here? So, I changed the subject and started talking about something else. Ten seconds later, he again, repeated what he had said before. Now I'm thinking, how the hell do I get out of here? Just then, another female, top leadership woman, burst through the door. It was strange - no knock, nothing. I've often wondered if I was being set up for something. But, I've digressed. Anyway, I saw my opening and took it. I got up, and said, I have to go get ready for the service and walked out the door. So now, here I am, I can't tell anyone what just happened, I've been told I am the only woman he's ever told this to, so what do I do? Well, for sure I'm never going to repeat it or tell a soul, its lockbox don't you know. I think the only reason I was not dismissed from the corps is because my family was involved and my brother-in-law was a top reverend and region leader. A couple of years later, I ran into a woman who I had been good friends with from my hometown in a local restaurant. She had gone into an early corps and had been abruptly thrown out. Everyone had wondered why - she was a great person. So, we talked. She hated VP. I asked why. She told me he had made advances towards her and she would not put out so he had dismissed her from the corps and the word was put out she was possessed and her good name was slandered. That was true, because that is what I had heard. Then, the kicker was, she said, did he tell you his big secret? And she told me the exact lockbox line he had used on me. She said he told that to all of the women - don't think I was so special. So here are all these woman who are keeping this secret and not telling a soul. Well, she woke me up. So, I never made it into VP's inner circle sex club (thank God) because I would not play ball. I also found out years later my friend Valerie in the corps was put through the same thing. She also refused his advances. But, lockbox. Why did I refuse? Simply because I believed it was wrong to have sex with a married man. It was adultry, I would not betray his wife. I also refused LCM. He had a different techinque to wrangle a woman into bed. But in my heart I felt I could not betray a friend's trust. Silly me.... So, I guess I'm saying, there was a lot of coercion and pressure and the feeling of being spiritual enough to "handle" this big secret, and you would rather die than break the lockbox. I can't explain it, weird group think and peer pressure. So, that's one reason why most people didn't know about it.

I think it speaks volumes about TWI, that with all of this discussion and all of our years spent in TWI, very few people who were in/out of TWI can tell anyone else who Jesus Christ was/is. How sad, we don't know. What a terrible legacy VPW left us. For me, its a personal journey. The Bible is a guide post to point the way - it cannot hold all of who Christ is. We need to look up, not continue to gaze into letters, commas, etc. We need to listen to the comforter that Christ sent into the world, who was not previously abiding in the world, but who now abides within us. The comforter will reveal Christ to us. As Jesus said, now, the truth is within you. We need to listen. Christ was the first spiritual being to experience humanity. He is cosmic.

To me, that was one of the key moments when I knew TWI was on a downward slide when I heard they were going to begin doing these evaluations. I was on staff and a friend of mine told me they were going to start doing this. I told her how idiotic this was. She said the standard we were being held to was VP's life, walk and example. I thought, gag me. I asked how could women be held to this standard? I also said, what if someone did lousy on the evaluation, but was a wonderful person with a great "heart." Where's the room for "heart" on this evaluation? (In the WC, "heart" was a great quality - I guess at least up until then!). We ended up arguing about it, she for, me against. At the end she told me she was the one who written it with DM. I should have known... She then said, so, do you think D**a is stupid? I said of course not, just the idea. The idea is assinine. That's when I knew TWI was really becoming a corporation. Any love of God left was slowly being drained away. So, basically we were judged in these evaluations on how well we compared to VP. Most of the corps didn't know that was the ultimate standard we were to live up to. They weren't told this little piece of info. Because of that, I was never able to take them seriously. The last one I had, I told the leader point blank, well, I can't guarantee I'll be here this time next year, I'm getting to the point where I've had enough. At that point, I was certainly not going to base my life on whether or not I am living up to VP's life, as I didn't particularly like him, and for a woman to be judged by male standards, well, that was rather pointless. In fact, the whole thing was pointless. I can't remember now what the questions were or what specifically we were evaluated on. Anyone else remember?

I've thought the same thing myself. OM slammed me recently on another thread - totally out of the blue, and brought up something that was discussed, what, 2 years ago? - he's still holding a grudge regarding that discussion, which quite surprised me as I had forgotten all about it - I wondered why he seemed to hate me almost and why his response was so nasty, and quite frankly much more extreme than he's been with other posters. I have often thought he is a BOD, or some other top hot dog who gets his jollies defending adultry and other TWI odd doctrines. I too don't think he's who he says he is, and haven't for a while now.

I understand ex. We all have our own timetables. I never quite gave it up, but I certainly don't study for hours on end like I used to. Yet, its funny, God still seems to be able to teach me and show me truths. As cultures, ages, centuries and times change, I believe the Bible is flexible to be applicable to each day and time. Its like McDonalds, when we were kids, it was a little drive in with two arches. As our generation grew, it grew and adapted, first you could be seated inside and eat, then the arches disappeared, then playgrounds for kids, etc. In the same way, the church and Christianity cannot remain static and inflexible, as a little drive-in, so to speak. I think many Christians have realized God is so much bigger - as the Gospel writer said, the book cannot contain all that Jesus did. In the same respect, the Bible cannot contain all that God or his Son is. It can give us a hint, or a glimpse. I sense a movement, that God is showing this to people. Its time to move beyond the black and white, Calvinistic, fundamentalism. That man-made religous dogmatism will not work in the coming centuries. We need to get to the Christ of love and the Spirit of Truth and following it as it inspires the inner man and not the God of war and law of the old testament - of which Christ came to deliver us from.

Yes. Since the Word took the place of the absent Christ, we nitpicked it to death. We became bibliophiles (a term used in theological circles) - those who worship the Bible. We examined the tree endlessly (word studies, numerical significance, greek, hebrew, etc.) and thus were not able to see the forest. We neglected the truths that, as Christ said "the truth is within you" or as others wrote, you have no need man teach you. We neglected the holy spirit, or comfortor which Christ sent into the world after his resurrection to teach us, guide us and comfort us. The Bible is a guide. God and Jesus Christ are so much bigger than that, they cannot be contained in the Book. We never realized that. We became bound to the letter - no different than the pharisees or sadducees. The result, as we can clearly see in TWI II and III is bondage. Many people can spout off scripture and verse, it does not make them spirtual nor give them a relationship with God.

VPW: 1. Affiliated with the Liberty Lobby 2. A subscriber to the Spotlight Magazine 3. A devotee of the Liberty Lobby Hotline 4. Presented to us Bob Richardson, the Populist Party (Liberty Lobby) candidate for President that year to come speak for the afternoon at corps week. Richardson actually did quite well in Iowa and some other states that year. Bringing him to the big top took a little bit of clout somewhere along the line. 5. Carried Liberty Lobby books for all to buy in the bookstore. Even the newsmedia had fun with that one 6. Gave us in the 7th corps our very own copy of Liberty Lobby's "The Secret Constitution" - with an offer for us to subscribe too to the Spotlight 7. Owner of tapes re: Illuminati, Trilateral Commission, etc. that he played at the Advanced Class. These tapes were courtesy the Liberty Lobby 8. Stated publically he had hated blacks for years (because one killed his older brother in a hit and run), until Claudette Royal came along - she was good. 9. Stated Hitler "had the right idea" concerning the jews (by the way, my friend was not the only one he mentioned this to) 10. Taught the murder of 6 million jews was inflated, a myth basically (backed up by books he sold in the bookstore), stated its just the jews have the money to keep this all in the media, or else we'd all have forgotten by now (those pesky jews). 11. Stated the Rothschilds and Jewish Bankers started WWII 12. Started the malpack, head for the hills, the country is going to fall, because of "inside information" courtesy the Liberty Lobby. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...

No Oldies, I am not full of crap. That was VPs quote, straight from the horses mouth. Get over it. I discussed this also with R.D. He told me VP had him almost believing all jews were "Zionist pigs." VP, as Danny pointed out, did sell those books, I read them. They were on sale in the bookstore for all to read. By the way, guess who publishes them? Again, the Liberty Lobby press. I forget what name it goes by. there's only one place you can get those particular books. Whether you agree or not, VP was an admirer of Hitler. Whether you agree or not, VP thought Hitler had the right idea concerning the jews. Whether you agree or not, he was a white supremist. One of his top right hand motorcoach driver aides told me he used the "hotline" quite a bit. So did another staffer close to him. I think Liberty Lobby updated the hotline weekly. Deal with it. Your insults are not welcome. Think before you speak. Just because you don't agree, or your idol VP is not perfect, doesn't mean you need to insult. Get over it.

It was my best friend to whom VP informed her "Hitler had the right idea" about the jews - i.e., get rid of them. She was stunned. VP was a white supremist. He was a member of the Liberty Lobby. The Liberty Lobby is a front in Washington D.C. for America's white supremicst, conspiracy groups. He got their newsletter, the Spotlight, and called into their "hotlines." Where do you think all of VP's inside info on the illuminati, Trilateral Commission, Rothschild banking, Council of Foreign Affairs - all the "secret" conspiracy stuff VP shared at the advanced class came from? Right from the Liberty Lobby. I still have my "Secret Constitution" he passed out to all of us 7th corps. On the inside of the back page is a form to subscribe to the Spotlight, which is their magazine. Remember in '76 we saved the country from a crisis? He was listening to the hotline. Remember he had the "inside" info on the Jim Jones Koolaid suicide - that it was really a CIA plot - that too came from his hotline. Remember when Bob Richardson, the olympic champion and Wheatie box star came and spent and afternoon and talked to the WC at corps week? Normally if someone well known went to fellowship, we were all made aware. Here comes this famous guy out of the blue to talk. Well, Bob was the Populist Party candidate for US president that year (the Populist Party is the Liberty Lobby's party). Kind of bold having the white supremist candidate come talk to us. He had to have some pull, or financial clout to get Bob out into a cornfield. Have you ever seen the outline of Hitler's Nazi Youth program - how to train the young master race? I have. The WC was incredibly similar. VP would have made a wonderful, loyal nazi, had he lived in another place and time.

It was not until after I left TWI and began attending ACOA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) meetings regularly that my eyes were opened to realize what a dysfunctional, co-dependent lot the WC was with VPW as its alcoholic, also dysfunctional, "father figure" at the head. Some of the stories of WC were amazing - the vast majority of us were a dysfunctional lot - not too many healthy people would have stayed, let alone go into the WC. We were a big, happy, dysfunctional family following the father figure. Anyone who understands psychology knows, that a nation will follow to the death a leader who reminds them of that country's father figure archtype (Hitler, the stern father, Stalin the Russian jovial, harsh father, etc.). The leadership in the WC used massive peer pressure and the concept of "commitment" - we were dog soldiers, doulouses, etc., etc. to keep us conformed. It was a very co-dependent relationship. Although I think the reason TWI began to fail with LCM's ascension, is because LCM was and is not a father figure to anyone.

I knew Harve when he first got in TWI in Maryland and for years after that. I remember him as a wonderful man. He was always naturally kind to me and others. I remember one time I was riding my motorcycle in New Knoxville, there was a problem, he stopped, took me to his house and fixed it. He was always a caring, giving, warm person who truly did love God. I knew him before TWI II and III. I know he started getting into looking for "occasions against the Philistines" and whatnot - weirding out a little. I think anyone who has stayed in that environment has gone off the deep end. It will be very interesting to hear from some of these top hot dogs when they leave TWI and have had a couple of years to reflect and get back to "normal."

Rascal and Vickles - your stories are so heartbreaking. I can only hope God has repaid you the years that the locusts ate (that's one of my favorite verses in the O.T.) Thank you again for sharing your stories. Rascal, I have to know - did you ever get another horse or a dog?

Ooh Ex - Meow! LOL!

Yup, have to agree with Oldies on this one. Donna, from my observations, was the one with the real power. She was smart enough though, to never take a position that would put her in the spotlight. I think Donna has been the true power for many years. Donna told me years ago, in the '70s, her desire was to do whatever it took to get to the "top." Looks like she succeeded. I think TWI is really being run right now by Donna and Rosie. LCM is out.

Yes, my thoughts exactly My 3 Cents. I thought I was the only one who noticed that, but thought I would be polite and not say anything - LOL!

A few years ago I may have picked 4, but I picked 5 because, PFAL was pretty much a word for word version of B.G. Leonard's class, which VPW claimed as his own and had the audacity to copyright. VP wanted to make money and PFAL was his "product" that would make him rich. Therefore, I say 5 because the foundation of TWI, the class, was a lie. VP hijacked another man's class and ministry and called it his own. Thus, it was never founded on any personal integrity or truth a spiritual man must have. Since it was all built on a lie - no wonder it has crumbled at the end. No wonder at the end of his life VPW started repeating, "I wish I were the man I knew to be." I wonder how many regrets he had, maybe God showed him what a wolf he'd been.

Yes, it certainly would be a treat for their viewers! A totally unexpected one at that! Maybe it would help attract some younger members. Did anyone see a young person in any of those pictures and videos?