Sunesis

I view them as people God loves.

Lightbearers became a nightmare for the later corps people. My first year in res, in the 7th corps, it was fun. They sent us out 2 by 2. I went with another woman, stayed with this great couple in Kansas, by quick talking, avoided a gang rape for the both of us, but we did have fun, and we did get a class together. Fast forward to my last year in res. We were told (this was the 7th and 9th corps), that if we didn't get a class together, we would be out of the corps. This put terror in just about everyone. I was also sent to IA. I hadn't been feeling well before I left and came down with a great case of pneumonia during the middle of our our two weeks there. When I recovered after a few days, my coordinator had been so scared one night, he was going to take me to the hospital if I wasn't better the next morning. Anyway, I recovered, we all witnessed our butts off and only got a few people interested. There was a believer who owned a trailer court (a "grown up") who was financially quite well off. We did clean up jobs for him to make money. I think, by the time we left, we had 6 signed up (you needed 7 for a class). On the last morning, me and Mark, left the younger corps at home and went to see Mr. Trailer Court. We had one more person who was interested but didn't have the $200, which was the cost of the class at that time. So we asked him straight out if he would pay for this guy. Thank God, he said yes. So, we had our class together. We got back, others who didn't get the class together were reamed. This included people in my corps who were kind of considered "superstars" and were being groomed for leadership. Quite a few people had to go back out again, and I was happy I didn't have to. Because with everyone gone, the Emporia campus was quiet - it was like a 2 week vacation. Anyway, from talking to everyone, it was amazing what they did to get classes together. I would say 80% of them paid for these people to take the class. They called parents, got money wired from their bank - whatever they had to do to get their "7" paid for. The problem was, it was easy finding people to take the class - but, $200 in '79 was a lot of money for most people. So the whole thing, with the threat of being thrown out of the corps, was a nightmare. Now I wonder why I just didn't say, screw this, I don't need this, and just up and leave. But we were all committed "doulouses." Anyway, the corps was never quite that same after that. The next year the 8th went out. I was on staff at HQ. People in other corps started joking about who was going to get thrown out. It had become so spiteful and mean that it alarmed the leadership and they backed off the threats and realized their browbeating had gone too far. The next year, the 9th was senior, I was on staff on Emporia. They had awful memories of their first year with the 7th, the browbeating, condemnation, etc. they did not want to go. It was a true passive/agressive rebellion. This affected their younger corps, the 11th. JAL spent hours trying to get them into it. It was like talking to a stone wall. I think when they left, most of them at that point, were resigned and figured they were all going to be thrown out and just accepted it. Of course, few classes were put together, and I don't think they were made to go out again. Maybe a 9th or 11th corps can enlighten me. Lightbearers, my second year, showed me how legalistic the ministry was getting, made me angry at the ministry, and was when I really saw, TWI was changing for the worse.

I very rarely respond to Mike's posts or read his teachings because, well, he believes PFAL was revelation from God to us and I feel, a man (Mike) convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. That said, this is probably the first time I have seen Mike open up and share his personal life, heart, and feelings, and the hurt he has had, and still has that he keeps compartmentalized deep down. I appreciate it, because for once, he has allowed us to see his humanity - something we all have in common. Mike may have different beliefs than most, but, at his core, he is human, he has morals, he has a conscience, he has a heart, he hurts, he feels, and is no different than any other person. Thank you for your sharing Mike.

Catcup - ooh, meow!! Good ones. Great to see you back!

UH, Rosie's pad is very, very nice. I see from some pictures that were posted on Waydale, she's added a nice, professional pool. Very nice. Yes, believers weren't allowed to own their homes if the mortgage wasn't paid, yet Rosie has hers! Not gonna give that up to TWI. She had it custom built with her own personal money (I heard) years ago. I'm sure the mortgage is paid off by now, and it will never belong to TWI. Oh, she got to keep her cat to.

house, I was agreeing with Uncle Hairy (we must have common friends). I wasn't trying to give you any sort of correction at all. That's the great thing about GS, we can share and discuss and put pieces of the puzzle together.

Yes, Donna had decided on Craig from what she told me. It took VP to open Craig's eyes and get him to consider Donna. Craig had been very much in love with someone else, which didn't work out. Craig and Donna spent a bit of time together and Craig popped the question. Donna wanted him, VP brought them together. Yes, Donna became very hard-hearted, but she was never one to rock the boat. She'd suggest. When Donna knew things weren't right, she never had the balls to stand up to people in authority, or fight for those being abused, like Catcup and others did. She still doesn't. She'll sit there until she's booted out - which I'm sure she will be one day if she crosses Rosie. As for her kids, hey, I moved in high school as do millions of kids. They'll survive. Probably be good from them to get out from the oppresiveness of hq and see, there's a big world out there. Let's see, she's not a trustee, not a cabinent member, doesn't run her own department, she's just "special assistant" to Rosie - i.e., a glorified secretary - so what's she doing in the chalet? I can't believe innies don't say anything about this, even among themselves. She needs to go. Let her be hoisted on her own pitard and have here own rules be applied to her.

Uncle Hairy, that's exactly what she told me once in a conversation. She told me (this was late '70s), that she had decided years before she would do Whatever It Takes to "get to the top." She was totally committed to being a top hot dog (as they used to say). She was very calculating, although, back when she was young, to look at her, you never would have thunk it because at one time, she was a wonderful, compassionate person who truly did have a heart for people. In fact, I think it was that quality that helped get her to the "top." She is where she is now by deliberate, scheming, decision. I agree, if she's not with Craig, she should be with him now. Or, divorce. Quit playing this game and living a lie. If you're going to lead God's people, be honest. The corps standards they have set for others, and so cruelly enforced, should also be applied to her. No exceptions, corps and all that stuff right?

Well, I worked in the payroll dept. at HQ in the early '80s. Yes, VP would show his meager little paycheck and show us how little he was living on, but... We would get notes from the trustees and their wives saying, I'm going shopping tomorrow, please give me a check for $500... (really, that was the amount). There was always a check for this, a check for that. Their hands were always in the cash till.

It was so long ago. But I think we all pretty much concur. Now I remember, yes, us corps did get to vote. I also about fell out of my chair too when I heard it would be LCM. I remember VP saying at a corps meeting he didn't know anyone better who could be president than Walter. Hope, I, for some reason, thought VP was overrulled by other leadership and decided not to fight it. But, Danny has an interesting point, who knows what LCM had on VP. I had never considered that. I do know, that it was obvious VP was later not happy and I think had some regrets about it being LCM. A member of the LCM family also told me that LCM's and DM's parents both had reservations about making LCM president. They thought he was too young to be handed all the power and money and authority over people he was getting. So, at least one of the families was not happy about it either. I also remember, it was fairly common knowledge on staff, VP was not happy about the AOS production. He felt LCM should have been working on how to best lead and take over the ministry. Someone said VP had said he wished he had never taught AOS. He never thought LCM would "run with it" like that.

From what I heard, being on staff and from other "top" staffers, no LCM was not VP's first choice. It was Walter Cummins. Then, the region and limb leadership balked at that. There was a meeting held with the top leadership and they voted for LCM. My brother was working on a film on VP shortly after the public announcement it was LCM. He told me he asked VP several times why he picked LCM. VP would not answer. Finally, when asked again, VP said, "because he doesn't ask how high when I say jump." But it was pretty obvious that VP was not too happy with the choice and did not want to talk about it. So, from my understanding, if VP had had his way, it would have been Walter. But the leadership had their way instead.

Well, I am glad to see John has posted here. You must give him credit for that. Very few other former "top hot dogs" have done that. I'm sure he knew there would be some hostility. I got to know him a bit on my interim year in Brooklyn and on Emporia staff. At this point in my life, I cut all Christians some slack - including ex-twis. They believe that what they are doing is of God and some of them, like John, are working their butts off to spread the Gospel of the good news as they know it. I just really don't care anymore who belongs to what group, who has the "truth," who wants to argue with who. As Christ said, the truth is within us. If it takes JAL, CG, Tammy Baker, sitting on a desert mesa, etc. as a stepping stone to what you need to learn for your life at that time, more power to you. Do I agree with most things taught now by ex-TWI groups - no way. But, I do give John props for dropping in and sharing what he has been doing with his life. He feels he is called to do this - more power to him. I know when I left TWI and went to a couple of his meetings, several of the things he taught (including the tithe) were very freeing for me. I will always appreciate that. I also saw much of his heart at Emporia for a couple of years. He may have made mistakes, and got caught up in VPs various wrong "innner circle" doctrines, but he is one of the few men I know who have since tried their best to make amends, apologize to people he has hurt and refute the erroneous doctrine of VP. I must give him credit for that. I have not seen anyone else do that. Do I agree with what he teaches now or the ties he still has to VP? No - not at all. But, I believe he has changed in many ways, like most of us have. Thanks for stopping by John.

I think the biggest disservice VP and TWI did was negate the divinity of Jesus. Mere flesh, even if perfect, could not possibly win and buy us back from the God of this earth, as Adam so appropriately proved. When Christ came to earth, he not only had to redeem mankind in the physical, but in the spiritual world - from the God of this world. Christ was the "perfect" man. This was definitely taught to us by TWI, and that if we worked on "renewing our mind", we could get close to Christ's walk. Some of us (like VP) could maybe someday walk the same way Christ did. We were definitely taught that with Christ in us and the renewed mind, we could be as he was. Two things happened I believe because of this doctrine: 1. Eventually people realize no matter how they renew their minds, they just ain't gonna walk as Christ did. This leads to discouragement, a feeling of hopelessness and depression. 2. By having him as a man and "absent" from us now, he is this little mythological figure in the sky somewhere who will eventually come back for us. Therefore, people started living very licensiously. He was not real. Without a living and "real" Christ, you eventually get into idolitry (of VP and the Bible - because VP was "tapped in" and was the chosen MOG). Since the Bible took the place of the "absent Christ" and VP was the only one who could teach it like it hadn't been known since the 1st century (right), he took Christ's place. If we had had an inkling that Christ was alive, real, and working now, I think VP would have been greatly kept in check. Now I see ex-twiers absolutely terrified to consider any other viewpoints. God will not be able to teach them the greatness of Christ until they get over their fear. And it is fear.

Satori - great to see you back again!

I think groups like AA, NA, ACOA, etc. are excellent. You just have to find the one you feel comfortable in. When I lived in NYC there were quite a few believers who were hardcore junkies and alcoholics - yes, really, in twigs. They loved God and Jesus Christ, but NA and AA kept them on the straight and narrow. I went to many NA or AA meetings with them. NA and AA is the only thing for many that can keep them sober. It was obvious that Christian principles, or let's even say, "spiritual principles" work for believer and unbeliever alike. I grew up with one parent who is still an alcoholic to this day, plus I have family members who are. For the family members, rehab and meetings and wonderful sponsors are literally lifesavers. When I was in the process of leaving TWI in NYC, I started talking with a pleasant young man at another firm and we somehow started talking about our parents' alcoholism and the effects it had had on us. He brought me to an ACOA meeting with him. It was ACOA (Adult Children of Alcholics), that for the first time in my life showed me, boundaries, limits, its ok to say no, that I was not weird, nor were my feelings weird, I was a survivor (you have to be tough to survive and abusive alcoholic parent growing up) and it also opened my eyes to what an incredibly dysfunctional family the corps was, with our dysfunctional VP leading the way. It was ACOA that opened my eyes and revealed some destructive co-dependent relationships I was in and gave me the strength to break with TWI. Since I had been in TWI since the age of 15, it was truly eye-opening. I think there are things in the physical realm that God showed me. After all, TWI was all about the "spiritual" realm, that life in the physical was in many ways ignored. I see AA doing great work for a family member right now. For many people, AA, NA, etc. are literally life savers. It gets them honest about themselves, they must take responsibility for themselves - can't slough it off, they must make amends to those they have hurt, you have to throw off the "I am so great" and get humble and realize, you can't go it alone, etc. Those of us who are not addictive personalities have absolutly no idea the hatred and self-loathing that also exists in the alcoholic, have no idea of the urges they must fight every day (don't say its devil spirit - its brain chemicals - its been proven). We just can never understand it. It is the only thing that for many junkies and alcoholics that works. The only hope they have. For those who seriously want to work it, I've seen too many great things it has done for people.

That was lovely Roy.

Its a still small voice within. For me, its a thought, an idea. In life threatening situations, its usually a strong idea to do something and stays with me during the day. For example, one morning I woke up and had an idea to go to a certain store after work which I never go to, or if I do, its on a weekend. But the idea kept popping up all day. On my way home after work, I thought, what the heck, let's go - as it was quite out of my way. When I got home, while I was away, 2 men had broken into my home during the time I was away (a neighbor witnessed it). I still thank God, I was not there when they did and had just had an "idea" to to something I never, ever do on a Monday evening. Same with spiritual knowledge. It begins with an idea, a what if... I muse and think about it, it starts to form, I research it, read about it, etc. After years of Waybrain, I have learned many wonderful things and had much greater spiritual insight I never would have had, much less been open to if I had still been with TWI, or been unwilling to look at anything unless VP had taught it. Its ideas, thoughts, impressions the Holy Spirit communicates to humans. How that's done - I have no clue.

Hello Refiner, good to see you back. I always enjoyed your discussions.

My thoughts were with you guys! I want to hear about it and see pics!

Ex - LOL!

Exie my friend, I think many of us who were in TWI were misfits who had never quite fit in, and we found a disfunctional organization who accepted us and allowed us to fit in with all the other misfits. But, as in my case, being the child of an alcoholic, or your case with abuse at a young age, its very common to feel you don't fit in. Have you checked out any of the survivors groups for what you went through? There are many. ACOA helped me immensely, possibly a survivor group could do the same for you - just a thought. By the way, I think you fit in here just fine!

Ex my friend, I think they come here because I have looked at many ex-sites for different cult members and I think Waydale, and GS now is probably one of the most vital and ongoing. I welcome them. After all, we were all cult members, just different titles of the ones we belonged to.

I really don't get what the big deal is here. If some one says they reject God or Christ, which happens quite frequently on this board, so what? We take it in stride when this is said by ex-twiers, but not anyone else? I think Refiner has always been polite, wants to know what TWI was - like many other people, has been involved in a cult like us - we all have a lot in common. I've read this whole thing, I really don't understand why people went off and got so upset. Keep posting Refiner and Oz, I really enjoy points of view of people who were not involved in TWI - there is much more objectivity in many ways than those of us who were involved - many are still way too subjective. Refiner sometimes shakes up our waybrain attitudes, beliefs and thoughts we still have.

I have great trouble believing the Hebrew God is the "true God" we worship and which was revealed to us in the Gospel of John and the Pauline Epistles. Jesus came to redeem us from his law, his bondage and taught his disciples how to pray to the true God of love. The only reason the Hebrew O.T. is in there is because a few hundred years later the Catholic Church decided it should be. To the victor went the spoils. The cannon is the result of politics. What if there had been no O.T., no God of war, death and destruction for "Christian" men to follow, would men have still believed? Would there have been war, an inquisition, a crusades? could they have believed in a God of love, the one Jesus preached? It seems most people can't, even today.

Refiner, don't worry, people won't take umbrage at your belief. We have discussed this a few times before on here, including whether VP or LCM were even really "born again" according to the Bible definition as we knew it. I think there are several factors to be considered in our history. There were/are basically two generations in TWI. Many of us who you are talking to were the younger hippies. The world was crazy in the late '60s, early '70s. We were looking for a place to rest - take a breather, a time out. TWI offered that refuge for many people and a promise to know God. The Hare Krishna used to come to my high school in NY. I was definitely searching for something spiritual. I loved those guys. They invited me to their temple in Brooklyn. I was 15, my mom said I could go, but none of my friends wanted to go with me. Within days, my best friend told me about the Way and took me to a fellowship in Rye. So, with me, yes, it would have been whoever got to me first. If I had gone to Brooklyn, I would have been a die hard Hare Krishna convert. But, I also believe in those days there was a great spiritual revival of our generation. There was a wonderful thread here once on the early days, how incredible it was, how God moved - maybe someone could bring it up, you really should read it, I think it would give you some wonderful insight. This was when there was no governing body, the Way leadership wasn't really in place, and we were young, free, and on our own, and we did see God work and people delivered. Not just TWI, but other groups of Christians around the country experienced the same thing. I have never seen a revival like it since. Then - clamp down, VPW overthrew the NY and California hippie leadership and claimed it for himself. Over time, freedom is lost, we see less and less of God's working. Its a long story. I also, when I left found some great books on the history or certain groups and realized VP was in it for the money. He was a member of what were called the "Tulsa Renegade Pastors" after WWII. As the nation prospered, these men all decided they would make more money if they left their churches and all started their own ministries. VP, after years of looking for a product to sell, found BG's class and coopted it as his own and taught it to us as PFAL. Dot nailed in on this and another thread. We were actually the fruit of another, Godly man's minstry, which VP corrupted. I too had always wondered how we saw great results when VP was a moody, sob in private. Dot's insight helped me piece that together. I believe VP no more walked with God than Stalin or Hitler did. But he had a product and played the role and made his money. But, it was the truth in the product and the wonderful people who were involved in the ministry that made it alive and vibrant those early years. Many stayed hoping they could make it that way again. I enjoy your opinions Refiner, especially from someone looking in. Its interesting to me to see how we are viewed from the "outside." Please feel free to give your opinions.