Sunesis

Well, if I were an advanced class grad, the phrases "eligible" for the "work-study" program in the upcoming advanced classes would not be a blessing - in fact, it would send me a huge red flag! In fact, I think I'd start looking for an excuse why my calendar was full those two weeks. I imagine, they'll have the grads "serving" and "blessing" the new students. In other words, TWI will save money by putting the current A/C grads to work. I bet it will be "mandatory" for the grads to attend. I thought they had staff for that?

Interesting question Def, about those who are not found in the book of life being thrown into the lake of fire. I would imagine, if someone is not in the book of life, he is in the book of the dead. Who are those already dead? If they are not written in the book of life, it is because they are already dead. I believe we are not talking about "clay" here. Good question, I will think more on it. CKnapp, I respectfully disagree. I believe, as the Word says, Satan was second in command with God until pride brought him down. I do believe his goal is to be worshipped as the most high. He and his minions are no longer free to roam around the planets - this is his base of operations. He is the prince of the earth and the air. This is his domain, he can do with it as he will. That is why Christ came to save us from his dominion and power. We may be on this earth, but we are no longer his. I think Hitlers, and others throughout history who enjoy slaughter and destruction are Satan's trial runs for the final showdown. Sometimes, there are people who are far beyond simply devil possessed. It is as if they are from another planet, an alien being. One of Hitler's goals was creating a new race of Gods. It wasn't just about supermen. A little bit of Satanic inspiration there?

Hi Cknapp, no, I believe they will have no judgment. Isa 26:14: "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore has thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish." "Deceased" is the word Rapha, which some scholars believe is a reference to Nephilim. There is no resurrection for them. Also, the verse in Dan. 2:43: "And wherease thou sawest iron (nephilim) mixed with miry clay (man-adam), they (Nephilim) shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." You still get some Nephilim DNA slip through occassionally. Nephilim are the tares that will eventually be weeded out. Even though they have mingled with men, they do not cleave to men - they hate men. I believe it is they who carry out Satan's plan on earth causing large scale destruction and misery (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other great destroyers through history). I think the mingling of the seed of God's created angels, with the seed of human kind - God's wonderful new creation - is an abomination to God. Nephilim truly are seed of the devil. They cannot be rehabilitated. Just as a Bundy or Dahmer can not be rehabilitated. They love beauty, and they love the evil they do. I think Nephilim are what is meant when in Genesis, we are told of the conflict between God's seed and Satan's seed - I will put enmity between your seed and thy seed.... It continues to this day. I believe the only "people" thrown into the lake of fire, if one insists people will be thrown there, are nephilim - those of iron - not human. God's crown of creation, humanity, will all be saved, maybe not all at the same time period, but eventually, in different time periods, in different ways. When all is said and done, at the end, earth, and its story of God, the devil, good and evil, mankind, nephilim, Christ, Triumph - all of this will be the epic of the universe, like the tale of the ring. Once I understood Nephilim, everything made sense and fell into place.

What a wonderful post HC - thanks.

Hi Cknapp. I've had no involvement in TWI or any other offshoots. I have no idea what Scheonheit has taught. It is written - I will look it up later, where the nephilim are not resurrected. They are not human. They were not "created" by God, as was the angelic host, spiritual beings, and humans. Resurrection and new bodies is for humans. The fact that God's created fallen angels, under Satan's dominion, left their habitat and mated with humans and bore these monstrosities is one of the reasons God sent the flood. The human line was almost totally corrupted. The Bible says the last days will be like the last days of Noah. I believe there will be another eruption of these beings. I believe many of the "gods" people worshipped in the pre-flood time were these fallen angels who roamed the earth or their offspring and took the woman they liked. If you look at pictures of some of the kings of Sumaria, they are absolutely huge. I have even wondered, since Satan had fallen from heaven, and his domain is now the earth, if what Eve saw in the Garden, that made her want to sin so as to be like a "god" was the beauty of these fallen angelic creatures she had seen. Maybe she and Adam felt they were missing out on something and wanted to be like them. The Bible says, after the flood, there was another eruption. As when coming out of the promised land the Israelite spies saw them and were grasshoppers compared to them. Also, Israel was commanded to wipe these people out, including the Cainanites. I never understood why, in the OT God was always having certain people destroyed - now I understand, it is because they were nephilim. I do believe, there are certain people today and in the past, those who commit atrocities, come to great power, commit mass murder and enjoy it, who are descendants of these nephilim - those who Israel disobeyed God and did not destroy. Read the book of Enoch. He is quoted many times in the bible and N.T. It was commonly known, read and believed - he was a great prophet. Of course, as the Catholic Church came to power, they effectively had almost every copy destroyed. Enoch is the one who pleased God and God had translated. There's a lot of stuff. I think the church is having an awakening in this field.

This is going to sound crazy, but from my research on Nephilim (the seed of iron that cannot mingle/cleave to man's seed - clay), these are the people - the genetic descendants of those who left their first estate and corrupted the human race, who the lake of fire is reserved for. Daniel (or Isaiah - I'm at work now, can't look it up) talk about these people whom there is no resurrection for. These hybrids, so to speak, of Angel and man, this despicable thing that was done, the corruption of the human race so that there could be no savior, these are the tares who must be winnowed. The ones who committed this abomination and left their spiritual habitat and estate are the ones in chains whom Jesus went and preached to. They and their offspring are doomed. Once I started studying this, it became very obvious - God's wonderful creation - man was created to be with him. ALL knees shall bow - no human exception. Was Hitler a nephilim (the word doesn't just mean literal giant), was Stalin, was Ted Bundy? There are just some acts that are so despicable that go beyond possession. I read a book a few years ago by the man who started the FBI behavioural profiler unit and has interviewd many serial killers. He said, the only way to describe them, is they are like aliens - we humans cannot comprehend them. Apt description I think. The spiritual war is God, v. Satan and his corruption of mankind, which God had to send a flood in Noah's time. Why was Noah saved? Because he was perfect. What was perfect about him? He was the only person left whose genetic line had not been corrupted. If Satan could have corrupted all human beings, which he had done to that point, the promised Savior in Gen. 1 could not have come. Thus, Satan knew God would put enemy between his seed (nephilim) and God's seed (the Christ). Sorry for the derail, but I think when we wonder why should someone like a Hitler not have justice - maybe he was a man of iron, not of clay and will suffer eternal death.

Sirguess - as usual, lovely, wonderful things to think on.

LCM worshipped and adored VP. I think there was sublimated stuff going on there with LCM. I know LCM's father felt VP had stolen his son and even confronted VP over it. I don't think it was a healthy relationship. As for VP, I really think he did not care about his young men vying for his approval. They'd jump through hoops for him, and occassionally he'd throw out a bone by giving a compliment or something. Almost a dominant (VP)/submissive (LCM) relationship. I think there was some twisted psychological stuff going on with the men who really went to the extreme to get VP's approval. He was a father figure to them.

Well, maybe in this life people won't accept him. but if millions are going to hell, he's not the Saviour to the uttermost, is he?

Def, there are some great sites on the web about it. I tend to agree with it. Basically, there is eternity, and there are Aeons, or ages in the eternity (like in the last 50 years there have been different presidential periods of time - but its all the same 50 years). Those of us born again have eternal life. Those who are not born again may not live in the same or particular aeon of eternity we will. But all will eventually have their works "burned" - note, it does not say the person will be burned or destroyed! Just the works. Christ is the author of salvation, not just for us humans, but for all of creation. Christ saves to the "uttermost." If many billions of people are going to "hell" (pretty much another mythical concept - research where it came from) then Christ does not save to the uttermost does he? If some are not saved than Satan won. No ifs ands or buts. I believe all humans, at some stage, will be saved, will bow before the Glory and love of God. Now, the Bible does talk about Nephilim and descendants - those people of "iron" who will see no resurrection, those people who are the tares - but that's another thread. I really believe Christ saves to the uttermost - all human beings without exception will be saved - maybe we will not all be in the same room in the "many mansions" the father has in store, but all, in some age of eternity will be with him. This was the common Christian belief in the early years. "Religion" has perverted it. I find it much easier to be loving to people, knowing, whether born again or not, that God loves them and they will be with him someday. Maybe not with the same spiritual bodies we have - maybe in a different way, but, Christ died for them too.

I have a great memory for words - see it once, I'll always remember how its spelled. But numbers - I can never remember. What most people don't realize, is that LCM had pretty much a photographic memory - which he used to wow everyone with how smart he was. He could look at a verse and have it memorized - because of photographic memory. Most of us don't have that. I remember one of my years in-residence, I forget which, they'd give us a written retemory test after the weekly corps night. All year, I could never pass it. Then Craig came down on us - get it right or else. Well, that corps night lasted very late - til maybe 1:00 a.m., so he told us to have it on his desk before breakfast the next morning. I went back and stayed up, used my Bible and got %100 on that sucker - so did the rest of the folks. I can remember a word, I have wonderful comprehension and can tell you exactly what I've read and analyze it, but verbatim - no way. As I said, LCM used it to wow and amaze people. Of course, we were too dumb to realize it and everyone thought they should be able to retemorize like that.

Yes Radar, he must have had more than one mole. I'm talking about another person. Interesting.

Thanks Radar - that was it, the Yak twig. It was another huge leader that had been brought in on staff that was giving info to CG. He didn't stay long. Ricardo was a very good friend of mine in the 7th, you could see he was having problems with all of a sudden being a trustee. He's a good man, I hope his life has been a good one.

I think LCM cowtowed to CG because he really did believe CG was getting revelation from God. Actually, one of the other top region leaders at HQ was in constant contact with CG and had wrote a missive to CG detailing what was going on. The BOD didn't know about this. So CG would call and gee, somehow magically, or in their minds, by revelation, knew what was going on. The BOD were meeting daily in the little twig they had, I forget what it was called - someone will remember. CG was communicating his "revelation" to them and they followed and believed it. Eventually they found out what was happening and I think that's when they pulled away from CG. Also, for those who have seen CG in action, he is a different type guy. He has a sadistic mean streak. I always think of him, as kind of a Hitler henchman - there is just something very cold about him. He can be intimidating. Plus, he was probably, with the exception of HA, VP's best friend. They were truly two peas in a pod. CG had a relationship with VP that no one else had. So every assumed it must be spiritual, that CG was VP's true spiritual heir. Couple that with his "revelation" he was giving to the BOD and his extreme closeness to VP, I see why they followed him without question for a while.

I think Igotout has great points. I also think My3cents hits the nail on the head as to what motivates someone to leave. I was already on the fringes when POP was read. I had been in since '70, also 7th corps with Igotout. As to what My3cents says, I left staff in '84 - it was an unconscious thing - little things had built up and subconsciously, I was ready to go. Once I had decided in my heart I was ready to leave H.Q. (not TWI yet, just HQ) - an immediate door opened up, so to speak, so I made a pretty much spontaneous, drastic decision in the space of a day. This was in August before new corps assignments. I left H.Q. for the field when it was time for assignment change. In fact I had already been assigned somewhere else, and I told them I would not accept where they wanted to assign me (a staff position) and this is where I was going on the field, whether they liked it or not. So, they assigned me to where I was going to go with the assignment, run a twig, which I did. I still had believers in my new area on the field where I went, plenty of corps I knew there, even ran a twig for a year and won the contest in signing the most people up to go WOW in my area, but, my head wasnt' really there by '86. I hung on for another year after POP, but by then the corps in my area were all going after VF and CG. I knew CG was a snake. The CG crew took pretty much everyone with them - all the local and statewide believers. I was really the only one who did not follow - at least in my neck of the woods. I had also moved several times in that area so I didn't get the LCM loyalty letter, I think they lost track of me, I just kind of drifted away. By then I had made a lot of new friends. So I guess it was good having believers around while I was making the transition totally out of the Way. I guess my situation was a bit different - Everyone went after CG and there were no LCM loyalists left in my area - so I was never M&Aed. But I was M&Aed by the CG people, go figure. By that time I had enough of a "natural man" friend base I was able to totally walk away. I see how God worked with me in steps: 1. Away from H.Q.; 2. By being in a huge metropolitan area where I had grown up, I was now away from TWI's influences; 3. I was far enough away to start looking at TWI clearly and start realizing I was enjoying my life more by being away from it; 4. POP - I believe that was a door God opened for our generation to leave without condemnation from the rest of our corps "peers." We were all old enough and wise enough by then to go. I realized, some young corps people I tried to talk to were very much the way I was in my early 20s - they would not hear and leave. I think God opened up a second door for thier generation with the Alan lawsuit. By then they were old enough and left. I really think POP and the Alan suit were the two big doors to get people out from two different generations.

OMG - Radar, I was reading this thread trying to remember what it was exactly I hated about the "household holidays" at HQ, and you remembered. When did they start doing them? I had to endure two of them in '82 and '83. The formal, the date, etc. And you really had to be there because Mrs. Weirwille kept tabs. Even though she was a nice lady, you didn't want her miffed at you. One year, I lied, and said I had a previous engagement and left H.Q that weekend and decided to visit my father in Columbus that weekend, where I hung out with some of my old high school pals. The next year Dotsie personally asked me if I was going (she remembered I hadn't been there the year before), I said I had other plans but that year, that didn't cut it - she told me she wanted to see me there. Still desparate to get out of it, I told her I didn't have a date, they were all taken, I wasn't going alone - that would be humiliating. She told me I'd have a wonderful time, see you there. I had decided I would go visit my father and buddies again, but then one of my co-workers asked me to go, so I took it as a sign I should be there and avoid Mrs. Wierwille's anger. The best thing about those parties was the trips to the punch bowl so you could get a nice buzz and "float" through the proceedings. And how many New Years Eves did I spend in prayer or setting up and cleaning up when all I really wanted to do was go out!

I remember that, VP going off on how his whole family had to stand or the ministry would be lost, and of course, one of his relatives would be the pres someday. Keep it all in the family. I was surprised he wanted a family dynasty. Of course, it was "heavy" and everyone was so serious afterwards. I kept thinking, why have the corps when we have blatent nepotism going on here.

Oldies and Wordwolf, we probably know each other. I was in Manhattan. I remember all the corps went with VF. I think I was the only one who didn't. VF was following CG. I could not in good conscience follow any of them - those left in NYC became very legalistic - CG's another story though. Eventually a couple of other corps people came and talked to me after about a year of isolation from TWI. I think there were only three of us women who just washed our hands of the whole thing.

I thought Kerry's opinion on how he would handle N. Korea was off the wall. He was doing ok until then. First, he wants to build an alliance re: Iraq. In a brilliant move, Bush actually built an alliance with N. Korea's neighbors (china, japan, etal.). Clinton had done the "bi-lateral" thing and we now know how disasterous that was. When Bush said, you can't push them away, you'll lose china. Kerry said, just because they're out of the loop, doesn't mean they'll leave. Bush again brought up the leverage China has that even the U.S. didn't. Kerry didn't seem to care and insisted on going back to a bi-lateral conversation with N. Korea - i.e., just us and them negotiate. I thought that was basically, not smart. Other than that, the debates were a tie. Bush seems to do well in the "town hall" type setting which is the next debate. Curious to see how that goes.

I think its pretty simple - they don't have a product to sell anymore. If I were them, I'd hire a pro marketing co. and come up with pro looking classes to market that people aren't embarrassed to run and invite others to.

I think he does. Its a thought, an idea, a mind picture, a knowingness. I think we are bombarded with so much info, the demands of daily life, etc., we forget to be still. If we carry an awareness of him with us - I think we'd be surprised how much he does communicate.

Research Geek, that was incredibly helpful what you did for the other lightbearers. Also, excellent strategy having the good witnessers and the pastor type people undershephard. You guys are great people too, I'm sure that had something to do with it...

Yes, me and Catcup and another wonderful lady were the three partners in crime that year in the bookstore. We started lifting weights and got our aggressions out! That year was truly a nightmare! Words cannot describe it. Emogene was basically an ignorant hick who had amassed too much power, had no clue how to use it, had a nice little sadistic streak, and kept her husband cowed. No one, not even VP dared go against Auntie Em. I later came to the conclusion she was a little nuts - something not right upstairs. I almost quit twice. Before that, I had also been on Way Builders - yes, it was a nice cushy job. No one bothered our little crew and we had fun. After the hell that was the bookstore, I ended up in finance for 1 year. I only did that to prove to myself I was not crazy, possessed, or whatever she seemed to think I was. I had a great year there - also kind of cushy. Then I was outta there. Saw too many perks and advantages the leadership took and realized their disdain for most believers on the field. Very sad.

Ex10th, I bet it did get interesting! He's a wonderful man, with a great heart for God, that was the only time I really saw him very down on TWI. I don't think he voiced it to too many people though. We had always kind of "clicked" and would go off on our own and have "deep" discussions :)--> That was the other thing, they send us out, get a class together, then the new people were left with people they didn't know to take it. I think a lot of people helped out the Lightbearers by giving them people they already had to sign up. Trust me, it was appreciated!

No, they never came out and apologized. I was there first hand for all this stuff. I know when the 8th went, and all the corps at HQ were wondering who'd fail (I was on staff there that year), and, in typical usual, almost black humor, started joking, the leadership did tell everyone to knock it off. They did lighten up though. It later became with the 12th, go out, have fun, witness, get a class together, but the threats were taken out of it. Us 7th really did get browbeaten by everyone from LCM, VP to VF, who they brought in specially. After the fiasco was over, many just hung in until graduation. There were a lot of po'ed corps. I was friends with one person from South America who was very well known and was a trustee for a bit, he was totally disillusioned with TWI pretty much after that.