Sunesis

Mell, as the other posters stated, pretty much any emotion, feeling, anyone had could be used against them. For example, if you were a bit sad, you had a spirit of depression, etc. Yes, if people didn't like someone, all you had to do is say that person had a spirit and they were out. TWI got so engrossed with discerning devil spirits, they started seeing them everywhere, in movies, books, statues, pictures - its pretty sick. Basically, it comes down to, if you do not agree with your leadership or their opinions, well then, you must be possessed! Its sad and pathetic.

I can't imagine a single person who would "need to see" a doggie porno film.

No, a couple of years ago he was working at Einstein's bagels in the office building I work in in Columbus. He asked if I wanted to come back to fellowship - I increduously asked him, what could it possibly offer? He left two weeks later. He's probably still around here somewhere.

Yes, his appearance did change drastically after he want for his eye operation. Mild stroke, it paralyzed one side of his face. I don't think even the top leadership were told that. I also think its why he was away for so long - then just came back to H.Q. unannounced.

When I was in residence at H.Q., I was sweeping up on the patio area in front of VP's home. He had a thick ID bracelet he always wore that was inscribed. He was talking with someone so I decided to get close to take a look and see what the inscription said. It said "The Man of God." So, maybe he was smart not to call himself the MOG for our day and time publically, but he had no problem wearing it. I think he believed he was in his own mind.

He had also had a mild stroke around the time his eye was removed. If you've seen a stroke victim, you know - one side of his mouth was paralyzed. I mentioned it to someone and they got all upset - don't say that, that's not true, etc. So since most of the HQ young people had never seen a mild stroke victim, I shut up. He had been away for awhile getting his eye out, I think he was also being nursed back after the mild stroke. I think the stroke definitely helped his rapid decline.

Very interesting thoughts from everyone! Abi, to answer your question, no, not going back to Nephilim at all. Just, with Satan in the Garden and probably others, I think, as someone else said, there was a definite awe of their presence, knowledge, beauty which led to temptation and communing with them. Just as later, in Gen. 6, another group of angels left their natural habitation - the place God created for them to live, and came here to take women, its almost as if Eve and later Adam, wanted to leave their natural habitation to go there... Possibly the tree of life would have taken them there?

Well, I've thought about this lately. I almost think Gen. 1 and 2 is two different stories about the creation of mankind. The first version, you have the creation of generic mankind. Then, there was no one to till the field (rule the world?) and God creates Adam, the one who was to be king and rule over mankind on earth - to show God to humanity, to be God's spokesman, so mankind can dwell with God. Then Eve was specifically created out of his rib in Chapt 2. I see no reason why Adam and Eve could not have been inserted into mankind, just as Christ was inserted later. We also know that Satan was present in the Garden when Adam - the king - was created. We also know from various sources that literal fallen angels were ruling over the general populace and people were worshipping them as Gods - not evil fallen angels, but as beings of the true God. Now comes this new King - Adam - who is given authority over the earth and to lead and teach mankind. If Satan can get Adam to give him his authority, Satan wins, the earth is now his to do his will and pleasure - he and his minions can rule. At that point, they had no authority to rule the people or the earth. God had created it for the specific purpose of his creation of mankind - which the Word says the Sons of God (Angels) rejoiced at when this was created and done. The concept of mankind was a thrilling thing to them. We know from Isaiah and other places that Satan was splendid looking. My question was, what did Eve see that was so pleasant to look at? What incredible things or beings did she see, that seemed so beautiful and knowledgeable, with knowledge and wisdom way beyond that of puny humans - such a lovely creature or creatures, that she thinks, hmmm... God hasn't told us all - but these Gods know - they have special spiritual knowledge. If I do this thing, I can be like them... I can be as these Gods. I think when Satan told her you shall be as God - he was pointing at a literal being or beings - unearthly, spiritual, beautiful, seemingly advanced. I think she saw literal fallen angels and gave her allegiance to them, they taught her marvelous things and she got Adam to go with her and commune. He then somehow gave his authority and rule to Satan (remember Satan said to Jesus, it was given to me?). They switched their allegiance from God, to these beautiful (seemingly) unearthly creations and consorted with them. The tree of life - DNA? Another god offering genetic manipulation, hybredization, some kind of transformation so they may now not only know as these gods know, but live like, and as, these beautiful beings forever? Something man is not to fool with? Who knows. Whatever it was, the consequences were too horrific for God to contemplate. Original sin, man has chosen and committed high treason against God, there will now be no harmony on the earth, mankind has invited misery upon himself by this transfer of his power and authority to this leader of the gods. God must, out of justice, step aside and let Satan rule, the creation groans under Satans terrible weight, rule and corruptive nature. Yet, God has mercy and compassion and says, I will send a redeemer... Much to think about. Just my .02 cents.

Was DM involved in the homo purges too? Or was it just LCM's thing? There were some posts a few years ago where a poster said she was involved in smoking people out. So she was working with LCM? Does anyone know what her role in this was?

Nice post P-Mosh - we agree! :)--> Nice post for you too Jonny. I will say, you were one of the sweetest believers I ever met - you truly had no guile. Jonny, no, I was not saying DM has having a gay relationship. She had one super best friend she had slept with platonically for years, during the corps and after. That person is now married with children. VPW encouraged this among the women of the early corps. I guess the reason we were so surprised about Craig being upset, is because everyone knew it, everyone knew who this friend was - certainly LCM did, everyone knew they slept together often, so we all assumed LCM knew it too and was fine with it. So it was surprising to hear he was upset. The woman who told me thought it was funny LCM was upset. Still, a new marriage, I could understand this being a blow to someone's ego - most people don't like sharing their loved ones in that way. I saw Craig start weirding out. Dressing in those all white outfits, preparing to dance in AOS, screwing cast members. He told one group in the AOS rehearsals, after he threw a hissy fit, that "I'm not Jesus Christ - yet." That says it all. It really does. He really thought he was getting there - as spiritual as Christ was. I knew he was losing it when at a meeting when I had left HQ staff and was now on the field, during the AOS production he was training or maybe even dancing in by then, he showed up in this all white shiny, flowy, parachute type material jogging outfit for a meeting, acting like he was some kind of god - an Adonis - it was ego at its peak and very theatrical. I couldn't believe any grown man would dress like that in public. I looked at the outfit, his attitude and thought, boy, he's gone off the deep end. The sad thing is, he thought this was impressive. I think the white - to him - symbolized some kind of spiritual purity - it was just weird I tell ya. He had to bury and shove aside his true self to be what he became, and once he made the decision, we went for everything with a vengence. I was shocked when years ago I read about TWI II. I can't imagine what it was like.

Now that I think about it. VPW had no conscience - his desires were money and sex. LCM had a conscience. His desire (originally) was to serve God and people. VPW didn't need to be made into a wolf in sheep's clothing, he already was. LCM had to be made into one - subtly. I believe, in some respects, his breakdowns were crises of conscience. Literally pushing away that which he knew to be right - and living with himself afterwards. His total destruction of other people's lives were the results of his seared conscience. Thus, I think, as VPW made LCM in his image, God, if LCM ever repented, could undo and remake LCM into what he should have been - since he had/has? a conscience.

I too was put in the backrub sitation twice while on staff at Emporia and he had come to visit. This was '81 or '82. It was late at night, we ran into each other and he told me he needed a backrub. You must realize, for those of us on staff, backrubs were common, daily occurrences - nothing sexual, we just all gave backrubs. The first time I thought it was a fluke and got up and left - I had to get up early the next morning. I thought nothing of it. The second time he was more overt about what he wanted, I then looked him square in the eye and said, your wife is a friend of mine, I will not betray her, and I left. We were still friends after that. But over the years we had the type of relationship where we could just sit down, hang out and talk about stuff. I think if he liked you (and I don't know why he did, he just did from the time I entered the corps - and it wasn't in a sexual way), and you could hang out with him, he was a totally different guy in private. I also think with females, he was more relaxed - didn't have be a macho jock. I do remember him telling me, since I was from NY, right outside the City, about his time spent in NYC as a church missionary. He had been very gung ho about it and I guess did a really good job. But I think the City and great poverty overwhelmed him. He was a serious committed Christian from his youth I think. Willing to be a "missionary" and go where needed to do God's will. But, as others said, he lost it. I watched his slow descent. I feel, when he met VPW, he had a deep psychological need for a father figure, and VP fulfilled that role. I know LCM fell in love deeply with one woman, maybe a second before his "arranged" marriage with Donna. I think Donna tried to play at loving him and being a good wife, but her women friends were always more important. That would drive a man nuts right there. I know one of Donna's friends told me, shortly after they were married, when he learned she was still sleeping with her best friend (not Rosie - this was earlier) while he travelled, he was shocked, hurt and upset. LCM was in way over his head when he was nominated President. He was lost. When POP came out, they had him on medications and were afraid he'd commit suicide. He was totally drugged out that corps week and rock. Both sets of parents (Donna's and LCM's) had severe reservations about them taking over the ministry. They thought they were too young and immature to be handling such money and power - this was told to me by one of Donna's sisters. They were right. I don't know, now that I think about it, its not as cut and dried as VPW. I am only talking about up to '84 when I left staff at H.Q. - then on the field I rarely saw him. Personally, I think as a youth, Craig did love God. I think he fell in with the wrong ministry. He was not a womanizer, that was something VP had to teach him and make him see it was ok. Under VP's tutelage, LCM became corrupted. I think after the fog years, it sounds like LCM came back with a vengance and decided he was Joshua and every woman in the kingdom was his. He was twice the child of hell VP was. His conscience was seared. I do not think he was the con man VPW was. VP started TWI to make money - period. LCM joined because he loved God and thought he had found the answer - two different motivations.

Jonny, you did exactly the right thing. Raging hormones, dumped by a girl he liked, humiliated at the prom, night spent on the mountain drinking to forget the pain, embarrassment and humiliation - like everyone else here has says, he lost it. Then, another woman wants to come over - he's thinking, he can redeem himself, she'll make it all right, she'll make him feel like a man again - he had a desperation to see her - NOW - it was almost a need for him - she can make it bearable. Like you, he too will remember this days as long as he lives. But, that said, there comes a day in every family where the young man goes up against his father, as someone said, its almost a rite of passage. As assertion of independence. What happened is nothing unusual, I saw it in my own family. How did you respond? A headlock - you didn't hit, punch, get enraged, yell or scream, or whatever many a father may have tried, as the above poster said, he is too big to hug, you did the next best thing - headlock. You handled this in a mature loving way - you may not think so, but he will down the road. I have a feeling, you will never go through a situation like this with him again. I have a feeling, he has a heart, realized what he did was wrong and has grown from it. Quit beating yourself up! You and millions of fathers have been through this. He's a great kid 'cause he has a great mom and dad!

Hello Danny, always nice to see you! Well, those were just my words - I don't think Christ was gloating. I will go over your verses. I'm at work now. They do say these things were around before the flood. I used to think they had caused the flood (that's what TWI taught). But from what I've read, especially from Enoch, its makes sense Christ would preach to those spirits in prison who are being held for abominating mankind. Stuff to think about. I also find fascinating the Sumarian pictures of their "Gods" or, as Enoch would say, the "watchers" who ruled over them. Giant, different types - unearthly - who ruled before and in the days of Noah. There's a fascinating book I need to find, I forget who wrote it. I believe it is by a Christian. His premise was that since Christians take the Bible literally, let's also take the drawings and pictures people had made and their descriptions of these kings of the pre-flood world, literally too. His findings were astounding - if you take it literally. Interesting stuff. I'm also tending to think, as Revelations says God will kick Satan and his angels out of heaven to the earth in the last days. That's an astounding thought if you think about it - cast down to earth. Earth will see a reappearance of these angels again. I think most people will welcome them as "Aliens." I think true Christians will be appalled and repulsed. I think this reappearance is the Great Delusion God speaks of, which he will send to mankind that they should believe a lie. Mankind will believe these are benevolent, godly creatures here to help. Of course, who knows!! For me its food for thought. But, if we are truly in the last days, it seems God is awakening Christians to what is written in the Word, that really wasn't paid too much attention to, to prepare his children for what's to come and not to fall for the "great delusion" God will send. Its fun to read and think about. ok, that's my .02 cents. And no, I'm not going off the deep end!

Hi Mark and CM. Yes, I am talking about Nephilim. At first I thought it was nuts, but there seems to be a general awakening in Christianity, so to speak, about them. I think maybe because Jesus said, when asked what it will be like in the last days, he said in Luke 17:26: And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man. He said this when asked what people should be looking for in the last days. Noah was rescued because he was perfect, i.e., not morally, but he was a descendant of Adam and the only man who's bloodline had not been corrupted by Nephilim intermingling with mankind. Thus, the need for a flood. Why was this intermingling done? Because Satan knew the Messiah was coming through Adam's bloodline. Thus, if you can corrupt the bloodline, there could be no Saviour, then this world would be perpetually his. Anyway, some verses of why I think you still have seed floating around today. Gen 6:4: There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (Noah's days); and also AFTER THAT (after the flood), ... So, after the flood there was a second, smaller, irruption of these fallen angels. This became the nation of Canaan. That's why God was always telling Israel to kill all these tribes and not mingle with them. I used to think we were dealing with a genocidal God here - now it makes sense. In Isa. 26:4 the Rephaim (same seed) have no resurrection - they are deceased - dead. Isa. references several places they, even though living, are called "dead" - not in the sense we know it, more as, they have no soul, they are hybred, there is no resurrection for them - just death (i.e., not written in the book of life). Their offsprings' massive strength is seen in some of the monuments still standing today. For more info, see Bullinger's Appendix 25 from the Companion Bible. As for the mingling part: See Daniel 2, he has the dream regarding the "miry clay" (mankind). "And whereas thou sawest iron (nephilim seed) mixed with miry clan (man), THEY SHALL MINGLE THEMSELVES WITH THE SEED OF MEN; but they shall not cleave one to another (i.e., they won't like each other, will be at odds), even as iron is not mixed with clay. Israel failed in its charge by God to rid and destroy the remaining seed of nephilim in the tribes, thus, I believe we see this seed in action today and throughout history. Men who do acts that are so far beyond human comprehension - whether its a Hitler or a Dahmer. I think that's why the Tares (nephilim seed) can only be winnowed out by Christ. Humankind will be saved - the promise was to all. Why did Christ preach to the spirits in prison? Who were they? Those were the angels who impregnanted the women they wanted. To show them, look here, you lost. Remember, their offense was so heinous, they were not thrown out of their habitation, but they left it willingly, to cohabit with humankind, that God had no recourse but to destroy the world that was. This is amazing. We are told in Revelation the next cleansing with God will be as by Fire. When you see this, the Word makes so much more sense.

The lake is for those who will perish (satan, the sons of perdition, etc.). I must ask myself, who are those Not written in the book of life, who will perish? Who are those tares who have grown with the wheat that Christ will destroy at the end, who are these tares destined for the lake? Who is the seed of iron that has mingled with clay (mankind)? The seed of iron is destined for the lake. It it these ones (the tares, the seed of iron) whose names will not be found written in the book of life, who will perish. They are the ones spoken of in Isaiah, who are rapha - dead, they have no soul and no resurrection. Yes, there will a cleaning fire that will annihilate all evil, but I do not believe it is for mankind. It is for those whose seed not of God or humankind - it is for those who have "mingled" with the clay (humankind), who will be winnowed out at the end. Average Joe sinner is not spending eternity in the lake of fire. If the punishment for sin was being in Hell, or the lake of fire or whereever it is, for an eternity, than Christ would still be there paying for our sins. We could not have had a redeemer because he would have had to paid for an eternity for our sins, if that is the penalty for sinners. We would all still be dead in sins for eternity.

That is so sad, that a little mini-corp child's biggest worry was, who hits the hardest? This is just sick. I wonder how many adults know what the kids went through? I love hearing this from your perspective minicorpsconscript. What else was it like for you and the other little guys, or what did you guys worry about?

Wordwolf, I wasn't there for TWI II (left in '88), but that was one of the best analyses I've ever read of what happened. Thanks!

When I was on staff at H.Q., I was at the local New Knoxville gun dealer one day (bet you guys didn't know there was one, he was fully licensed and ran it out of his home). I noticed a picture of him in high school with his basketball team. It was the senior class basketball team photo for the yearbook, except this was a blowup photo they all got as a keepsake. He knew I was with TWI. I looked at the picture and he said, see if you can spot Vic there. I was very surprised. Turns out they were on the NK basketball team together - and there was VP in the photo. I asked him if I could borrow it and have our photography dept. make a copy - as VP would probably be thrilled to have a copy. He said o.k. I had a copy made and sent it to VP - he was thrilled. The next time he saw me, he asked me to ask the guy if he remembered the names of the teammates. So, I returned the picture and the guy named the ones he could remember. So, yes, VP did play high school basketball.

Wow Cowgirl! Congrats! I didn't know you and Goey were engaged - I love reading his posts, his picture also shows he's quite a handsome guy! I hope you two are very happy.

Well outofdafog, I don't know if they're facts, just some logical conclusions. Thanks, it is a different viewpoint. I also think the "abomination" in the temple will be some sort of "fallen angel" type being, pictures of which you can see in ancient sumarian pictures. Iknow that one's off the wall, but food for thought!

Panzer Pope! That was the nicknames his German constituants gave him. I guess he is quite unyielding in his devotion to church doctrine. He has an iron will. I like the nickname - the Panzer Pope :)--> One of my best friend's fathers in NYC was Hitler youth. It was something you literally did not have a choice about if you were a "good" german. The alternative was "mark and avoid" - by everyone. I find it unusual people find it odd he will uphold the Catholic dogma - that is what Pope's are supposed to do. Supposedly he and John Paul II had decided they would rather be faithful to the church tenants and lose people, than modernize and gain. Remember, Panzer was hand-picked by JPII to be his right hand man. Panzer played bad cop so JPII could be seen as the good guy. They also very deliberately picked an older person. JPII's shoes will be extremely hard to fill. Panzer is an "interim" Pope. They figure he has 5 or 6 years left (watch, he'll live to 100), this gives them time to seriously consider what kind of changes and what kind of person they want for the long haul. I don't think any Pope who has to follow JPII can possibly fill his shoes. To me it seemed, JPII was a very real, deep, spiritual man of prayer who had a true love for people - all people - there was something about him. Also, I believe the anti-christ will be a Jewish person - not the pope. Christ's prophecies in the OT were to his people. Jewish people would never follow a pope, or even consider one to be the Messiah. Nor would they let a non-Jew into the temple when it is eventually rebuilt. I sometimes think the great Babylon spoke of in Revelations is the USA. We spread our culture, decadence, commerce, etc. all over the world. No one else comes close. I think it will be interesting to watch this Pope in the days ahead.

Igotout, tell me that couple who inherited a million dollars didn't give it to TWI...

Johnny Lingo, as I was a little high school "groovy Christian of Rye" kid, I did not know Mr. Doop. But I knew Steve and Sandy Heefner - I loved them. Those two had a wonderful evangelistic ministry. They were open to the kids, we could go over to their house and hang when we weren't fellowshipping - there were no rules - to us young kids they were so cool and wise, like real biblical saints come to life. I will never forget them. Steve's teaching at my first fellowship at Tim Bishop's house opened my eyes. I believe it was a true revival of God - hippies, dopers, kids and adults being reaching by God in a way our tumultuous society and the church could not at that time. I am glad I lived to see a "true" revival in my lifetime. I saw Mr. Doop here and there in later years but never knew him. I am much looking forward to reading your book.

After that, I didn't bother to read the rest of your post. Maybe you should try less insults next time.