Sunesis

Yes, Joyful Noise was ordained and had a few married guys who would lovingly "service" women who's marriages were going bad, and who TWI did not want to see split up. DM offered my friend this option.

Georgio - what a heavy burden you've carried all these years - glad you could confess it here. Amazing the trivial things, that in TWI are lifetime issues. Actually, you did the right thing. If I had done something like that, I wouldn't have said anything either! They could always glue them back together.

I would say, in the 1-4 corps, most of them did, and probably one in the 5th corps did. There were other women in the 5th corps who were harassed into sleeping with VP but were not ordained. Its very simple, look at who Donna's best women friends were - they were all part of the "special" VP sex club, as I call it. If you did not sleep with VP, there wasn't a whole lot you had in common with her. I know one woman in an early corps who refused and was thrown out and everyone was told, and us on the field who had known and loved her, that she was possessed.

Hi BluzieQ. The first time I sat through the Christian family and sex class, I think I was 19 or 20. When it came to the submission part of the woman, I literally got up and walked out. They tried to stop me on the way out the door. I think I'm one of the few women who did that. As I said, I had been with TWI since 15 in 1970, so in those few years, I had seen first hand the "submission" doctrine at work in some early corps couples and others. Do a search on Google for the "Jesus Movement" or "Jesus Freaks" - there's a wonderful article I found with a great history and overview, plus other great stuff. Your parents were at Kent State huh? That explains a lot. I know young people today think this country is on the verge of revolution, but I think the reason us "older" folks seem so calm about it, is because nothing yet has compared with the times in the late '60s-early to mid-70s, when you really did have white college kid bombmaking groups, campuses were being bombed, banks, etc. I was reading recently how many bombs were exploded during that time period by our own "homegrown" terroists - it was amazing. the peaceful hippy movement didn't bring about the "revolution" as hoped, so it got more and more violent. Most young kids have no idea about this. So, I guess, since we don't have the street chaos, cities burning (I grew up right outside of NYC - I remember the race riots), leaders being assinated and on and on, we're all pretty calm. I still have not seen in my lifetime days like those. It was like, us young 12 and 13 year olds were totally into the hippy, peace, love, pot thing and life was "groovy" - but it was like there was always this sinister music playing softly in the background you couldn't shake. OK, enough about that - hey when I was your age...

BluzieQ, I've been reading your thread and your thoughts with great interest. I wasn't raised in TWI, but I got in at age 15 in 1970 and left in 87-88, so most of my life was spent in it (including corps, WOW, staff, etc.). I loved your last point about how white heterosexual males were treated the best, they were the top of the food chain. This is an excellent and overlooked point, and very true. I've also noted on here, the diehard defenders of VPW are in that category. As a female, I never could buy into the "submissive" thing and basically dismissed it. I looked around and saw too many marriages where the wife was demeaned, patronized, talked down to, etc. But these corps men were taught this attitude and to do this by VPW. VPW was a misogynist, I believe. College is a wonderful thing, history, philosophy, sociology, etc. - can really open one's eyes and help shake off the Waybrain. Also, in the "early days" of the late '60s, early '70s, TWI was not so controlling. It was basically a bunch of young kids doing their thing loving God. PFAL basically made the Bible understandable to us. It was the time fo the hippie. You really must take the times (hippy, vietnam, race riots - the country is falling apart, revolution, bombings all the time, Kent State, etc.) into account. For many TWI has a peaceful haven in a crazy Amerika. If VPW had tried to control us, we would have fled. I know to look at TWI now, you could never imagine that. Also, it was a time of great revival (do a search on the Jesus Movement and Lonnie Frisbee - the whole movement basically was started by this young man in California) - the "Jesus Freaks" - Jesus - offered an alternative to the chaos in the large cities. There's a great thread on what it was like in the early days of TWI - real signs, miracles and wonders, etc. So, your parents saw something they wanted (love of God?) and sadly, have stayed "committed" darnit, through thick and thin. You also have to realize, your father got so angry because he does have some doubts. People who get angry when challenged are that way, because down deep they know its the truth. If someone truly believes something, he does not have to get angry or argue about it. The best thing you can do is live your life. You are never going to change their minds. Everyone I know who left TWI, it began with a small thought, a still small voice, basically, a move of God in their hearts. I'm always so glad when a TWI child grows up, thinks and moves on - you go girl!

Belle, I noticed that young Moneyhands has quickly risen to the top. I also thought it interesting that his buddy is on his way too? Another case of not what you know, but who you know. Sounds like the Moneyhands are making inroads for the future. Donna in charge of housing? Is that glorified housekeeper - or just in charge of them? How the mighty have fallen.

I've never had it leave. Stuff still thrills my heart and soul. The Holy Spirit is still alive and works in an individual who seeks, even though TWI is no more.

Steve - don't worry - I didn't really think you were. And if you don't like them - fine with me, there's lots of great music out there of all types. I think I was saying, I can totally understand how he'd love Metallica. Justloafing, yes, the higher ups did laugh at us. One time, one of the tip top leadership offhandedly mentioned to me that they had all been in a car driving by where some corps were working and they were joking about the slaves working. I got very annoyed. I said to her, so you all think we're slaves - that's what we are to you. She said, oh no, we were joking. I dropped it, but I've always believed what Shakespeare said: Many a true word is said in jest.

As a long time rocker, who still plays in bands, even now, I have to say, The Beatles, Led Zep, REM, the Stones, U2, Van Halen and Metallica are the top selling bands of all time. I'm not defending LCM at all, but Metallica is an awesome band, I've seen them live in arenas and smaller places - they are just one of the tightest bands I've ever seen, like a machine. For the 90s and even now, they are still the biggest band in the world. Even in TWI, I always kept up with the "secular" music, books, movies, etc. I learned just not to tell anyone. It would always surprise me when they would tag something as "devilish" or "from the pit" and then your top leadership loves it. They were soooo spiritual, they could enjoy anything, but we were dummies, or would so easily get possessed - what bull. They really thought so little of us. We were their dumb keeds.

Outandabout, the reason its just like the white separatist groups think, is because that's where it came from. VP was a member of the Liberty Lobby - the front for white supremist groups in Washington, D.C. That's where he got his books on Jewish people, his revelation about the Illuminati, his revelation the country was going to fall in the late '70s, etc. I've written about this in other posts, I won't rehash it now. From what I've read, DNA has now proved that the Jews who were dispersed and are in Israel, do have, whatever the characteristic genetic marker is. In other words, those books, the 13th Tribe and the myth of the 6 million are wrong about who the jews are - most of them are not from a tribe that converted. So, scratch that off the list.

A lot of my little friends in my NY neighborhood I grew up in were jewish. I remember the first time I went to one boy's house and met his mom with the black numbered tattoo on her forearm. I asked his mom where she got it, and she just said Auschwitz, and said nothing more. As I grew up I was friends with people in H.S. who's parents or grandparents went in, living in NYC I met several older holocaust survivors. My professor told me what her parents had told her about being in the camps and how they survived Krystalnacht before being caught later. One lady I worked with at my law firm in NYC, was from Holland and had been in the Bergen-Belsen camp from age 6 months to 4. I found this out at lunch one day. Since she was Jewish and from Holland, I asked if any of her family had been in the Holocaust. That's when she told me where she had spent the first 4 years of her life. I was horrified - that was the famous one with the infamous female guard Ilse Koch, who for fun, siced the german shepards on the little kids and thought it funny when they were mauled to death and eaten. She remembered very little about it (or didn't want to). They had been rounded up, her Father sent to Auschwitz, mother to Treblinka. He died, mom survived. She had been taken with her 18 months old brother and some other kids - about 14 of them - and put on a dump truck. The truck pulled into Bergen-Belson and dumped them in the mud in the middle of the night in a rain storm. Her 18 mos. old brother watched over her and did his best to protect her during this whole time. I was horrified, I asked her, how did you get over this? She said, you must understand, that's all I knew - I thought it was normal. When she was liberated at 4 years old, she spent a year in the hospital recuperating - at 4, she only weighed as much as a one year old. She celebrated her first birthday at home with family at age 5. A Russian woman and another woman took the kids into the barracks, where they risked their lives and kept all of these kids alive. They kept them quiet all day so as not to annoy the guards. For some reason, those guards were just too ashamed to go slaughter the kids. She told me her family and the other survivors had made great efforts since the end of WWII to locate these two women over the years. About two years later, when I had moved back to Ohio, there was a huge article on them with pictures as adults - there was Stella smiling in front. They had found one of the women and flown to Europe to honor her. The lady received a hero of Israel, Righteous Gentile award. Readers Digest several months later did an article on it. The woman who kept them alive had already lost her own 14 year old son in Auschwitz and was damned if she was going to let these little ones die. There are too many survivors. Their stories must be kept alive and documented. These camps were the devil's playground - literally. For someone to dismiss them or prove it didn't happen is just being willfully ignorant.

Too Gray Now - yes, you nailed it. One of the best explanations I have read. PFAL had to take us to the mountaintop also, to keep TWI growing. It did. I also remember mountaintop checkbooks, and other, as VP would call them "mountaintop" experiences. The problem was PFAL was purposely designed to take us to the mountaintop, the one he viewed, and it seems, the rest of our time in TWI was spent trying to get back up there. But we never really could. HCW, great post as usual. I should rephrase, quite a few of the hippies attracted to TWI were down and outers and throw away kids. Also, the "Jesus Movement" of the late '60s-early '70s also attracted middle and upper middleclass kids - definitely not throwaways, but it gave them an "in" so to speak, or an entrance into the "hippie counterculture" they had seen from afar and would have loved to participate in. You had a mixture of the two group.

Sirguess, I love your thoughts, but, sometimes I think you're giving too much creedence here to VP. I agree, anyone with fasting, a desire to know, etc. can have a "spiritual" experience. The question is, which god did they touch - there are many. When I look at the little I know of his life, from childhood bully, troublemaker, rebel, etc., I do wonder why he decided to become a pastor. Maybe he couldn't tolerate a job where he had to answer to anyone? Sure, a Board every few months, but not daily. He did seem to admire other men's ministries, which later turned to jealousy, he made up his own spiritual visions (gas pump, snow in July, snow in Tulsa), in a desperate desire to give himself credibility. The people around him were treated more as things (what man leaves his 6 month old for a year to go traipsing off to India - most men would have left the wife to stay behind and care for him), while the things he had were treated lovingly. I do believe he was simply a wolf, he negated Christ's divinity, made Christ more of a special "man", VP took Christ's place for us, and substituted himself and knowledge of the Word instead of a relationship with Christ. His teachings back then and today are considered "unorthodox." Most of us are now spending our lives learning things bibilically or spiritually that should have been basic. We are searching and seeking. I don't believe he had any spirituality or any relationship with God. I have grown over the years to believe he is more like those mentioned in Jude, or someone seeking whom he many devour. His methods are very similar to the Children of God leader, David Berg - though not as overt. Interesting to see though how false prophets think so much the same and say the same things.

Excellent posts HCW - I enjoy reading them. You have an even, balanced perspective. I was just thinking, and I will have to read up more, that we (most of us in TWI) got in the Word during the "Jesus Freak" movement of the late '60s, early '70s. During those times of anger, rage, constant bombings, etc., millions of us came to Christ - the peace amongst a society seemingly falling apart. I wonder how many, what I shall call "wolves" were attracted to this, saw an opening, and took it. I think some of the biggest leaders, when you think about them, were predators (Children of God, TWI, a few others). HCW, I really liked what you said when you said teens and young people do have sex, but with each other. VP was not one of US. That is so true. There's quite a difference between being with someone your own age and someone twice to more than half your age. I have a 16 year old neice, to think of a fifty-something VP pulling his act on her - he wouldn't have lasted long, jail is where he would be. But, also, back then, as Jesus came to the down and outers, TWI attracted so many, down and out, throw away kids, who would have believed them? I believe the late '60s early '70s was a true evangelistic revival and movement of God which I feel fortunate to have lived through. I think it attracted the wolves and they fed off the flock.

I think what also angers me about VP is that he went after teenagers - starting in Rye during the "groovy" christian era and never stopped. I work with young people at work. Even though some of them are in the early 20s, from my aged viewpoint (when did this happen?), they are babies, little kids. They try so hard to please, do a good job, etc. For someone in a position of authority like VP was to prey on these young, naive, innocent kids (and most of them are naive) - is sickening. They're like little lambs making their way. To try and destroy a little 17 year old's life and estrange her from her family - if that's not a wolf, I don't know what is.

I was a WOW in Harvey's area when he got in the Word. I'd go over and play guitar with him and jam. We were friends until I left staff in '84. I've heard he was terrible in later years, but, he truly was one of the nicest, kindest, giving people I ever met in TWI in the earlier years, before his rise to the "top." I think if anyone's eyes would be opened from reading GS, it would be his. I never thought he was of the same ilk, or cloth, as VP, CG, RR, etc. I have a feeling he may be planning a getaway, or at least away from H.Q. Working with RR would probably be an eye opener for anyone, no matter how "committed" they thought they were to TWI. Is JR still on staff? He was another kind, gentle soul. If he's not, good for him!

Hi Ex - I always enjoy your posts! I was raised under Steve Heefner and his wife Sandy, they were wonderful people. I think you're right, VP did eventually try and control, and possibly without realizing it, destroying these men's ministries. Heefner was right to tell him to shove it eventually. VP's ego wouldn't let him have these tremendous men, in his mind, competing with him. Though I never knew Doop and saw him from afar, and in a few meetings later, I would love to hear his history in TWI.

Good points Satori. I saw the ledgers Mrs. Wierwille kept during the early years. They were sad, down to the penny. They were poor, he barely eeked out a living. I think money was a huge motivation for VP. I think the power came later and he was quite surprised at the growth of TWI, but enjoyed it and went with the flow. Hey, if a bunch of naive young kids think he's an apostle or the MOG, who was he to shatter their naive misconceptions. He always used to talk about, how in the early days, he just believed God for 50 faithful men, that's all he wanted, just 50 faithful men. I ask myself, why only 50? Well, if during the '50s, 50 men were ABSing 10% of their income, that's enough for him to live on comfortably - very comfortably. All he has to do is preach on Sundays. One of the first things he did when money started coming in was buy himself a very nice, new Harley. One of his old timer assistants (PW? I think), asked him point blank where did he get the money for that as the ABS was to go to TWI and there was no way VP could afford it on his meagre salary TWI, his non-profit organization was paying him. The man quit when VP admitted it had come from TWI funds. When VP died he had 4 or 5 extensively and expensively tricked out Harleys, an airplane, motorcoach, the H.Q. compound, properties and farms all over New Knoxville, campuses all over the US, properties in Europe, limb homes, only the best clothes, top dollar suits guns, leather motorcycle riding outfits, cowboy outfits and stetson hats, a corps chalet, a big fancy world class auditorium, a historical center and mansion, a Way prod. building in new Bremen, dog kennels, top breed dogs, etc., that's all I can think of off the top of my head. As long as everyone thought that with VP, the spiritual was the most important thing to him, the money kept a rollin' in - and he lived his lavish lifestyle. I agree the MOG status was very important to him. But he sure did acquire alot of stuff as he humbly moved the Word. I guess it can be looked at both ways.

I believe everything VP did was for money. VP was a member/fellowshipped with a group of preachers from Tulsa. In U.S. Church history, they are know as the "renegade" preachers. All his friends, Star Daily, Glen Clark, etc. were members. Remember it was in Tulsa he learned to SIT. He looked up to these men. After WWII, when the nation started to become very prosperous, these men met and all decided, they could all make much more $$$ if they started their own ministries - which is what they all did, they left their churches and started their own ministries - why? for money. So, I feel, VP went on a quest for a product to sell. He wanted his own ministry, wanted to be his own boss. Didn't you ever find it strange, he talked about reading the Word by himself for years and "working it," then he takes B.G. Leonard's class, and within just a few months, PFAL magically appears. He found his product and gave it a new name and passed it off as the results of his years of research. Now he has a product to sell. He starts selling. But he still has that little sex problem, whether its people in his congregation or some of the people who were involved with him in the early years of TWI (yes, one of his co-workers who had been around for years). He heads out to CA in the '60s because he hears there are some Christian groups practicing "free love" and wants to somehow, make sure its ok and get scripture to back it up. I think he was truly surprised how the class took off and the ministry grew. It attracted young, rebel, hippie, free love kids, it offered a respite from the crazy times. But, it was all about him, and the money it made for him. I never thought he was a particularly spiritual man. I think the love thing, from the early '70s was what attracted so many of us, and kept us going trying to recapture it or keep it alive. I think he was a con, an angel of light masquerading as a man of god.

Oldies, I'm putting you on my ignore list. You've been po'ed at me for several years now since we last discussed this topic. Get over it. I don't care about your halitosis, or whatever other problems have and insults you consistently throw out. If you can't respectfully "agree to disagree" then I will not be responding to your future insults and comments. As for you being all ears - its obvious you have not thought about the posts and thoughts others here have shared - you're just rushing to defend your precious "believing = receiving" doctrine without stopping to consider. So, you are now on my ignore list. Rascal, Belle and others, its quite clear God has been working on our hearts and teaching us right doctrine. Its fascinating to hear how he worked with each one of you.

Years ago, on staff at TWI I did a word study on the word faith (as translated "believing" by TWI). I realized it had nothing to do with "believing" but trust - giving the situation to God and Trusting that he will do the best thing. Its like a diving board - you take a leap, a leap of trust, and God will catch you. Its a leap of "faith" because your five senses, your reasoning, your logic, has nothing to do with it. I also noticed, the "hall of believing" in Hebrews had nothing to do with their "believing." Joshua didn't say, hey God, I think it would be a good idea to have the walls of Jericho fall down - so I'll believe for this, you bring it to pass. No. Just as Moses didn't come up with the idea to part the Red Sea. What happened was, God said, repeat, God said, I will part the Red Sea, Moses, hold up the rod. I.e., Joshua, Moses, and all others trusted that what God said was true and had to step out. They were not directing God. Trust is basically trusting God in every situation - letting him run with the ball. Believing, as taught by TWI, was us telling God what to do, the way we thought a situation should be handled, then, getting a "mind picture" - and holding it, until God accomplished our desire. Basically, we, the creature, were directing and telling the Creator, what to do. In the lowest common denominator, it made God our errand boy, we, his masters. He would do our will, if we just followed a few rules. Once I saw this, and was able to trust God, just give the situation to him, I saw amazing results.

Sirguess - excellent post. As usual, very insightful and profound. I think you see many people get glimpses of grace and have no idea how to "get it back." Rascal, I agree with everything you've said, and have always enjoyed your posts and totally understandable anger. I think what Sirguess is presenting here, is not an excuse for VP's actions, nor a black/white explanation, but more of a subtle, spiritual, shades of gray observation. From VP himself, it certainly does seem those "struggling years" - his "vision" (snow - which I disbelieve), or whatever was going on back then were for him, his "glory years," that he never could recapture. Another perspective is, he was a truly evil man, and God gave him a glimpse, a last chance, to walk with him, and he turned it down. But it is certainly a different perspective Sirguess has put forth that I don't think I've ever seen here.

No oldies, not in my dreams - in VP and TWI's dreams. How many times were we told if we renewed our minds, we could walk as Christ walked, we could be like him. Renewed mind was the key to power - what power? Walking as he walked. The more you renewed your mind, the more Christ like you could become, the works he did, we could do. We were to put on the mind of Christ - remember that one? We were to walk as he walk via the renewed mind in manifestation. Christ was perfect and had a perfectly renewed mind - Remember that? Thus, the more our minds were renewed, the more like him we could be. You must have been sleeping during all of this.

That is just a beautiful prayer Coolwaters. And yes, Christ may not be with us in human form, but he is here, spiritually. Read Revelations, he is with the church - even today. He is the head, he directs it. TWI left him out of the picture, except to use his name after a prayer. VP magnified the Bible in Christ's place. TWI, even today, worships "the Word." It has taken the place of their very absent Christ. TWI's greatest disservice was also negating the divinity of Christ. To most, Christ was a figure way up, somewhere in the universe, who will someday come back. Since, in TWI's thinking, he was a perfect human - it meant we could become as "perfect" as he is by our works, or renewed mind. This is not true, we can never be like him in our limited bodies, to do so is to try to become "like god" - which, as we read in Gen. in the Garden, is a no no. In order to be like him,and to "see him as he is," we must have new spiritual bodies, I would also assume our minds will be included in that. It is something God will do - not us. Beautiful prayer.

Nice post Danny!