Sunesis

Shazdancer, I don't know exactly how long it took her to leave after that. But finding out the snowstorm was a crock, was definitely a jolt! She was very loyal to VP and TWI. I think it was an event that opens up the doors of doubt. I left around '88. My sister was friends with her after they left, which was late '80s, so I think BH left sometime around then.

I was good friends with BH. She was a branch leader in Tulsa, or somewhere in OK when she researched the snowstorm. She was one of only two ordained 7th corps women (the rest of us were slackers I guess!). She had great respect for VP. I remember when she told me the results of her research, and VP brushing it off. It was a great disappointment to her. She, at that time, didn't know quite what to make of it. She left TWI a couple of years later. Also, if you read your history of the big American religious leaders, Jimmy Swaggert, Baker, Roberts, etc., they all claim to have had a vision - an annointing where God told them they were chosen to teach and lead. I have absolutely no problem with VP's made up "visions" - he was just doing what they all do. If you want to set up your own group, you must have had a communication with God that makes you special, the top alpha male. Look at the leader of any religous cult - not just Christian - they all had some kind of special, spiritual communication - which they will teach and impart to others (if you stick around and give them your money).

Me too, Columbus here. Lancaster's not too far from here.

Second James, regarding Sodom & Gomorrah. Their sin was in wanting "strange" flesh. For some background, read Genesis 6 - "sons of God" (i.e., fallen angels, "strange flesh") cohabitating with man - the daughters of Adam. There's mucho stuff about this, see Bullinger's appendix on this topic. I don't want to get into all of it right now. Suffice it to say, the consequences of this required a cleansing of the earth via a flood. There was also another, smaller irruption of these beings after the flood. These beings were the "gods" of old people worshipped and served. The townspeople of Sodom & Gomorrah wanted the angels, the "strange flesh." They knew what could be done sexually with fallen angels. Except these men who arrived were not fallen angels, they were God's standing angels. But, to the town, they were strange flesh. In this light, I don't think S&G is dealing with homosexuals as we would think of it. Also, Jesus told the disciples, if the town rejected them and didn't receive the Word, it would be worse for that town than for the inhabitants of Sodom & Gomorrah. So, rejection of the Word, is a much bigger sin then homosexuality - right? As I've grown older, I think, have come to believe, if you are in a loving relationship with someone, God does not make as big a deal out of it as religious people do. Also, there are many, many Christian homosexuals. God does love them. Just be her friend. Quit worrying about who she prefers in her bed. Isn't it ironic that the number one sex fantasy for men is two women?

It seems the only women VP ever had any kind of respect for were women he considered his "intellectual" equals. For some reason, he could be in awe of them. In all my years in TWI (1970-1988), in the corps, staff, etc., there is only one time I ever heard him speak well and respectfully of a woman. We were having some small staff/corps meeting in the BRC and he started talking about a woman who was late - how smart she was, how intelligent, yadda, yadda - it was EW - the author of The Way Living in Love. I was amazed because I'd never heard him talk of any woman before in this respectful a tone. Yeah, I too am very suspicious of the at night, when everyone was in bed, we were sneaking around, relationship with this woman. Sounds like they had a special, close relationship. Sounds very typical of him. Then of course, he never saw her again. If they were so close, you'd think we would have met her. Wonder what happened.

Geogio, that's nothing. You should see the all white, silky parachute material outfit he wore visiting us on the field. It was meant to inspire and put us in awe of him. Its right up there with the camo outfit.

I cannot believe LCM walked around like that! I saw the movie on DVD, American Beauty the other night. LCM reminds me of the repressed ex-marine father (those of you who saw the movie know what I'm talking about). If I saw a guy dressed like that walking down the street who wasn't military - I'd think he had a screw loose or was a walking timebomb and avoid him. Rosie and Donna's outfits are very color coordinated - they match and go well together. If a stranger saw that picture, who would they say the couple were in that picture?

Thanks WW - I had tried to use the copy and bold function - I had wanted to use the quote from the book - thanks for doing it for me! I'll figure it out sooner or later.

Here's a great statement when he was talking about Rinker and how she pushed him: ...but the Bible is the Word of God... in all my years of school-not believing it anyway. Note: "Not believing it [the Bible] anyway." I can't believe he let that slip. I have often thought he was not born again - here he basically admits with all he education, he did not believe the Bible. This is no wonder, many pastors, reverends and people who make a living pastoring their flocks don't either. VP's concern was his ministry and his people. His "product" was the Word. It paid off handsomely.

I can look them up at home. I remember II Thess. is one that wasn't. It was written by someone else to shore up I Thess. (which was written by Paul). I'll let you know. I think out of his epistles, 5 were written by someone else.

I was very surprised at how many forgeries there were in the 1st and 2nd centuries. If someone disagreed with someone, or wanted to make a point, they'd write an "epistle" using an apostle's name and make their argument or apologia. We now know that some of the NT books in Paul's name, were not written by Paul. So you also had all these letters circulating who were not by the "real" apostle. Fascinating.

No problem Irish eyes. I can understand how you feel. This month my father fell, spent a week in the hospital, two weeks in rehab, at the end of that time his wife, my stepmother, was dying - we all spent last week at viewing and funeral. Been a rough last few weeks.

Ah Danny - to the victor goes the spoils! - and rewriting history and cohering the church and deciding which books would make up the canon. The leadership who "won" in this case was the fellowships of Rome. Why? All roads led to Rome. Rome was the center of the empire and everything emanated from there. People had money, power, contacts, networks of people, etc. Things naturally spread out from Rome. There were also large conflicts about, should there, or shouldn't there, be elders over the fellowship. In the very early church, the only recognized "leaders" were ones who had been in direct contact with one of the 12 apostles, or travelled with him - someone who could be directly traced to the apostles or Christ. Why? Because they did not have the written word or epistles like we have now. There was no "Word" or Bible in the early fellowships. There were letters were sent from not only Paul, Peter, but people like Barnabus, Thomas and many others that are not in the Bible today. They'd read and copy it and pass it on. Because there was no Bible to speak of, it became very important that those over the fellowships had had direct contact with Christ, or the apostles who had been with him. When that elder grew old, the person who worked closely with him was appointed, so the "lineage" was kept constant and close to the source. There was a big hubub in some of the ancient letters and writings because the church of Corinth had gotten rid of some of their elders and replaced them with new ones who had not been with an apostle, and the large Roman fellowship, said, whoa - not so fast, put back the old ones who have personal experience with the apostles and can keep the message of Christ pure. That's why "Apostolic Succession" became so important. There was no Bible, you had to hope whoever was teaching you knew what he was talking about and not adding or taking away from the doctrine.

I find it interesting how Christ reveals himself to those in cultures other than our westernized Judeo/Christian one. In India, you will see colorful pictures of Christ dressed just at Krishna with flowers, etc. He appeared to Black Elk (see Black Elk Speaks), as an Indian with the great Eagle feather in his hair. There are other examples, but these are the two I can think of right now. He is who he is to other peoples and cultures, that maybe, had Tertillian and others had lived today, they would find heretical. I think it does not matter to God if one is a trinitarian or not, or is of one denomination or the other - the main question, is, have you accepted him as your Lord? I too am went "trinitarian" a few years after I left TWI. There are varieties of Trinitarians too. I was just saying, I understand the great need there was back in the 1st and 2nd centuries to solidify who Christ was - or Christianity would have become and small footnote in history.

I just finished a book called "The Lost Christianities" by a Professor at one of the huge divinity schools. It was a very thorough, objective look at all of the different types of Christianity that appeared in the first and second centuries, from manuscripts that have been found - scholarly, but a layman can easily understand. You can read about Paul fighting all of these different types, some quite large, in his epistles. It was fascinating. It looked at the Marcionites, ebonites, gnostics, proto-orthodox (what we are today), and other groups. Also, other things. I found the trinity interesting. The church found it necessary to describe who Christ was because you had several influential groups saying many and various different things about Christ and who he was. One group said he was a phantom - he appeared real, but was not, he was more a spirit in bodily form; one group said he was totally human and the "Christ" spirit came in at his baptism by John and left during the crucifiction (can you imagine the horror of the poor guy who's body was "borrowed" by the Christ spirit coming to his senses on the cross, wondering - how did I get here?!); one group said he was totally divine; one group said he was an emanation; plus various other beliefs, there were a lot of differing opinions on who he was. We think Christians today are divided - the first and second centuries were amazing. Anyway, the leadership had to decide who Christ was in order to combat these heresies. He wasn't a "god", yet he wasn't just a "person" invaded by spirit, nor just a perfect person. On the whole, I think they came up with a pretty good way of explaining who he was that effectively combated the heresies. Most ex-twiers erroneously think trinitarians think Christ is God. This is wrong. They do not believe that. We can thank VP for this. They believe the ESSENCE of God was in Christ reconciling men to God. Therefore, he was human, yet had the essence of the Father in him. To think of the essence concept, think of a block of silver (God). Think of the corner being chipped off and living on earth. God and Christ were of the same essence. Christ was not bigger than God or God. Trinitarians tend to use the term, or say that Christ was God. What they mean is Christ had God's essence - its a shorthand term, just as TWI had many they use that others go, what?. I finally understood why though, they call Christ the "incarnation" (note, I did not say "reincarnation"). So, many may dislike the trinity concept, but imagine how Christianity and society would have been different today if the other views had won out.

Hello Roy. It used to be everything after its own kind - until modern DNA mapping and research. Now, modern DNA and genetic research have proved you can take strands of DNA from one kind and insert it into another kind and come up with some very wierd mixtures, they have already done it with animals. Pigs, rats and monkeys born with human DNA. They have done it with pigs so their organs can be used that are compatible with humans and can be transplanted into humans. Humans won't reject these organs because of the human DNA mixture in there. They have taken the DNA from jellyfish that makes them glow and transplanted it into rabbits. Turn off the lights and they glow in the dark. Are we not becoming as "gods"? there's much debate in the scientific community about, what if the animal accidently turns out more human in thought and emotions? Then what? How far do we go? Those "myths" of ancient civilizations, Sumaria, Bablylon, Egypt, Greece, Native American Indians, Inca, Maya, of all cultures all over the world, of giants, ancient gods who ruled over the people, who introduced human sacrifice, cannibalism, destruction and violence, the "myths" of hybred animals due to fallen angels playing around and experimenting, I believe are based on fact. If we take the bible at face value, why not take the pictures, sculptures and what the people back then said at face value? Roy, read the book of Enoch and get back to me. Enoch explains in detail what happened. He was Noah's grandfather or great grandfather. His writings are quoted throughout the Bible - old and new. It was destroyed by the Jewish religious leaders (gee, I wonder why - don't want people knowing the truth), but not all of them were - some survived. Enoch was a very commonly known book. when you read it quoted in the bible, it was assumed you had read it or knew about it. I find it interesting this info has been sitting in the Bible for centuries and is only now being understood. As Rev. says, when "knowledge" has grown his return shall be close. I believe Satan gave humans "knowledge" in the garden which they were not equipped or created to know or handle. Humans are toying with knowledge which can have catostrophic consequences, knowledge previously in the domain of the "gods." I believe it is because God wants his people to know what's coming. They didn't need to know earlier. Also, read Bullinger's appendix on this topic.

Good question Irisheyes. Jesus, I believe knew who these descendants were when he told the religious leaders, they were of their father, the devil - I think he meant that literally. He was also the redeemer - I think spirits knew that and they showed themselves much more readily. I do find it interesting Jesus called the religious leaders white washed sepulchers, and of their father the devil. Sound familiar - and no marvel, Satans angels are transformed into ministers of light. I think you will find descendants in many religious organizations. That's why I ask, where is your pastor, or whoever leading you? I do think the seed of the the adversary in the material world here on earth, would be the descendents of the beings that ended up mingling with Israel, contrary to God's express forbidding to do so.

Roy, the Seth explanation is one, but I do not believe it is correct. I believe fallen angels, watchers, whatever you want to call them did mate with females of the Adamic line and produced giant offspring - Nephilim, hybreds. Why did they do this? Satan had been given this world, and dominion over it by Adam. Satan knew the Savior was promised through the Adamic line - Adam's descendents. Adam was created by God. This future redeemer would reclaim all for God and must come through Adam's line. If Satan could corrupt Adam's genetic line, there could be no Savior. If there were no Savior, this world would always belong to Satan - there would be no redemption available - God loses. Why was Noah called "perfect"? It was not because of his morals. Look up the word. Its a physical perfection. Noah was the only one left on earth who had not been genetically corrupted - he still had the Adamic DNA from which the Savior could come. The situation was so catastrophic that God deemed it necessary to rid the world of this corruption. The corruption was astounding, sexual perversions, hybred animals, hybred people, etc. These beings are clearly shown in the temples of ancient Sumeria and other places where the people worshipped them as "gods." Fast forward - Gen 6 - "and after that." There was another smaller scale irruption after the flood. God clearly names the tribes who are these descendents. It became one of Israel's divine missions to wipe these human/hybred abominations out. When people say, why is God so genocidal? He's not. There is a reason. God also commanded Israel not to mingle with them - which, of course, Israel eventually did. Daniel speaks of Iron (nephilim) not mingling with clay (humans). God says these people have no souls - there is no resurrection for them. Sodom and Gomorrah - why were the people so eager to go after "strange" flesh? They had been with fallen angels and knew what could be done with them - they recognized the two men as angels - what could be more natural than wanting to have sexual relations with them? That's what fallen angels did. It was the "strange flesh" they were after. Jesus, to his disciples, talked about God patiently waiting while the wheat and the tares grow up together (wheat = human, tares = nephilim descendants - those with no soul). The express purpose of the wrath of the end days is to rid the earth of the "tares" that are among us. Jesus also said, when asked by his disciples, what will it be like in the ends days? What sign will there be? Jesus replied, it will be like the days of Noah. We now know what was going on in the days of Noah. What are Nephilim today? They are the psychopaths amoung us, the killers who like to eat people and do all sorts of horrendous things - those with no conscience, or no soul. Understanding this, you can clearly see, that when God created the world for man, the Sons of God (angels) rejoiced - except for one. It was a great blow to his pride to think God was creating a new, puny little being that would have dominion over this beautiful planet. Remember, it was Satan who originally had dominion over the universe and "walked among the stones of fire" - i.e., the planets. They were his habitation. How dare he be ursurped! How dare this planet not be his! To me, it becomes quite clear what a great spiritual battle for humanity has been waged and will be waged in the future. The Bible also makes much more sense when seen in this light. These beings have been tinkering with genetics since the beginnning, continue to do so now (UFO abuctions anyone?). They are racing against time, they know they are doomed. Revelations tells us that Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth at the end times. I believe we will see these fallen angels once again. They will once more walk the earth, just as the ancient sumarians, bablylonians, etc. saw them and worshipped them as Gods. Humanity will worship them as benign "aliens" come to help us evolveand teach us great knowledge. As God says in Rev. - he will send humanity a delusion that they should believe a lie ("Ye shall be as Gods" anyone? from Gen.) - except for those people, Christians who will not accept them as gods. Call me crazy....

Nope, that's not him. Maybe its the Lust Killer - I will go to her site and find it.

Yes, there was one. I used to read a lot of Ann Rule's true crime books. The guy was the subject of one of her books, I think its called, the I-70 Killer - something like that - The I-something Killer. As I'm reading this book, I kept thinking, this guy looks very familiar - but could never place him. About 3/4s through the book, after one of his killing sprees he took off for the midwest. Two ladies' were driving back from a TWI fellowship when their tire blew and he stopped and helped them change the tire. They asked him to twig fellowship and he came. I think he was staying with someone he knew in the area. Anyway, he took PFAL and began dating one of the women (I think she was in her 40s) with the leadership's encouragement, and since he was a "believer" no one had any clue. He was biding his time in hiding and was now involved with TWI. They brought him to the Rock that summer. He talked about working in the food tent - aha - no, I wasn't crazy, that's where I had met him! We both worked in the food tent together. Well, he ended up murdering the woman after the Rock. This all came out at his trial when the prosecutor was asking him about his involvement in TWI, since that's where the woman had met him. Its been a long time since I've read the book. Its either the Highway Killer, the I-something Killer. He was an odd looking guy with a prominent forehead - that's probably why I thought I had seen him but brushed it off. Very sad. It was never mentioned by TWI.

Mr. Doop, there is a great deal written about false prophets - woe unto them who lead God's people out of the way of truth and into the paths of the world. Who claim to speak for and about God, yet through subtlety, with God's Words, lead them away. That's why I ask today, where are our pastors, churches, et al. leading their flocks today? On an aside, I was reading some articles on the "Jesus Movement" of the 60s, early '70s - did you know Lonnie Frisbee? I find it interesting he too met with VP, yet did not go along with him, and the churches he helped start have grown and are still flourishing to this day (the Vineyard, and I forget the other one's name). Now, you have left us hanging - you dreamed a dream and saw a vision...

Rascal, to answer your questions on page one, I liken it to the proverb of the wheat and the tares. In this world, humans walk with people who are, well, "Tares." Tares are people who commit evil, hinder God's people, etc. His disciples said, let's get rid of them now. Christ said, don't worry, at the end times they will be weeded out. that's why at the end, the tribulation and wrath are two different things. The wrath is the cleansing of earth and mankind of the tares who have been with us and worked for the wrong god. Many great "religious" leaders will be among them. God does not ask us to forget what has been done or has happened to us. Forgiveness is for our benefit - not the other person's. When we walk in anger we walk in darkness. Forgiveness lifts the burden of our anger and allows us to walk in light. I have always been disgusted with and condemn VP's actions, and it is our duty to let others know about the founder of the TWI cult, but let God judge him.

Rascal, you asked what makes one worthy of contempt? I recently read a great study on the word "blasphemy." Christ himself said, you can speak against me, but the one thing not forgiven is blasphemy against the holy spirit. I always wondered -what does this mean? I won't go into mucho detail, but the essence of blasphemy is to set oneself up as a god - i.e., when satan said to Eve, you shall be as gods, to know... etc. In other words, from this and various other uses, it is people who believe they can peer into the secrets of God, by works, mysticism, new age, channelling, or however they wish to do it - but the key is, they do it without Christ. They do it themselves, or with other teachers. This put me in mind of TWI's "renewed mind" teaching. If we renewed our minds enough, we could be like Christ. If we believed enough, we could move mountains, if we did that, this would happen - we had the power to make God move for us! Exciting.... maybe. The key was, it was all us - our power, our mind, our thoughts - you see the drift. Our "father in the Word," VPW was the master at this, the uber-believer, the one closest to Christ - so far. The one all corps strived to emulate. Blasmphemy, making oneself on par with, or above God, showing one has "spiritual power" - and you can get it too, follow me, I'll show you what you need to do, its simple. For this Satan was cast down. Over the years, I have come to believe VPW truly was one of Satan's men masquerading as an angel of light. And no marvel - why should we be surprised? From his early years, as a bully, not of good repute, to the way he treated his wife, to the destruction of marriages, sexual predatory nature, many abortions, the stealing of the work of "true" Christians and claiming it as his own, when he really didn't have an original spiritual thought of his own, the absent Christ, etc., the fruits of his ministry we see now - I believe he was not born again. I also believe at least one of his top henchmen was not either. As for some of his other top men, I believe they were Christians, but were corrupted and led astray, I believe if they repent, there is forgiveness for them. I guess it comes down to what Christ said, by their fruits you shall know them... To me a false prophet is someone who promises they can show you God, how to manipulate him, how to be one with him, without Christ. I believe that while they believe they are looking into "spiritual" matters - they are delving into the secrets of the false god - which someday will be shown to be nothing, rags. I believe many of these false prophets are pastors, Revs, workers in the church. And why not, who does Satan want to turn people away from? Not Budda, Allah, - everyone else is A-ok, except for Christ. A question I would now ask myself is, where is this minister or pastor taking his people in his church? Where is he leading them? To a knowledge of Christ and his Word, or to a social, feel good, let's align with all the other religions and be tolerant, etc., religion? There will be your answer.

That's very true Igotout. My motto during my time in the corps was: It is easier to get forgiveness than to get permission. This nugget was taught to me by a 3rd corps grad lady, who used it as her motto. I also realized, if you were "discreet," you could pretty much get away with anything in the corps. Some of us did manage to march to our own different drummer - even in residence.

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