Sunesis

Chas - a couple of those Esteban reviews are hilarious - its made the rounds under Electric Guitars on HC. Tom, no, sadly I never did. Let's see, they're almost $3,000 new now, in '62-4, I think they were $1,000 - one/tenth of the worth of my dad's house! But, a pattern was set... Johnny Winter is amazing, I learned most of my "fast" blues playing from him. I used to wear out his albums, especially Johnny Winter And Live figuring out his licks. He was one of my main heros and influences on guitar. True story - My band in NYC rehearsed at a place called Rocket Studios, a very popular rehearsal studio on 30th Street - a lot of famous people rehearsed there. The old hippe metal head, Scotty basically ran it. Anyway our band did a slow blues tune, which we practiced. I went out to take a break and heard someone playing in the large studio next door. I said, Scotty, that sounds an awfully lot like Johnny Winter - he was my hero. Scotty says, it is Johnny. I almost fell over. I begged Scotty, please, please let me meet him! Scotty said, we'll see. So I went back to rehearsal. Rehearsal ends, our time in the room is up (in NYC, you pay so much an hour for a room). We packed up. Scotty comes in our room and says, would you like to meet Johnny? I looked at the rest of the band and said, well, the rest of the guys have to be allowed to come too. He said, ok. I went into the huge rehearsal room, there was Johnny with his band (Frankie Paris on bass, forget the drummer), in his black t-shirt, tattoos, a large glass of orange juice (with vodka), his black cowboy hat - Wow!!! He looks just like the legend he is!!! The first thing he said was, who's the lead player? I said I am. He motioned me over. I told him how much he had influenced me and had been my guitar hero growing up. I asked a couple of questions. Then he said, well, when I finish here, I want to jam with you, I'll come over to your room. I nearly fell on the floor. I said, I'd love to jam with you, but our time is up, how about I stay here and jam when you're finished your rehearsal. He said he was getting ready for small tour and had to keep playing, but maybe next time when he was there we could jam. I thanked him and walked out of there floating on a cloud. I mean, having Johnny Winter ask to play with you!!!??? On the way out I asked Scotty, why did he want to jam with me? Scotty said he had gone out on a bathroom break, heard you playing a blues song and wanted to know who it was and meet you. I guess that's why the first question he asked is who's the lead player. I think he was a little surprised I was female. I've seen him quite a few times, the Beacon in NYC was awesome, and a surpise appearance with I went to see his brother Edgar. He's just awesome.

Wow, where to start with everyone else's posts? I'll tell you some about me. I have been a "gearhead" all my life, actually worked at Sam Ash and was one of the stores top salespersons in the guitar department, still ravage the guitar and store catalogs. It has been a life long love. My first guitar that I asked my parents for at 7 years old, after carefully reviewing the only catalog I had, the Gretsch Guitar catalog, was - the White Falcon - LOL (for those of you who know what the White Falcon is). Naturally, they said no, but, it was a start for me. I Consistently played in bands through H.S., here and there in TWI, then after TWI in NYC - at that time it was the "hardcore thrash" scene, so I jumped right in. Now that I'm older and living in the midwest, I have consistently been in bands - so, its been a life long thing. I have also over the years, picked up instruments I thought may be collectible in the future. In my "collectible" collection I have: a '69 SG, a '71 SG, a '79 antigua strat (mint), a '79 cherry sunburst strat (ash body, rare color), a 1980 "The Strat" in red, another in Blue (for you collectors, these are under the radar right now - if you can find a "The Strat" get it - they are the best sounding strats I have ever played - amazing, the pickups were higher output); recently acquired an '86 Kramer Baretta with rare graphic (all Kramers are starting to skyrocket - the Barettas, pacers and Focus, if you have a chance, get one); am currently working on acquiring a late '60s Gibson SG special (with P-90s). For those of you talking about great sounding, but relatively inexpensive acoustics, the Martin D-15 mahogany model is excellent. All mahogany, beautiful for fingerpicking - $500-600 - its a Martin. Socks, the Epi Elitists are excellent Epiphones, check out Musicians Friend for them, they are blowing them out because they are so good, that everyone was buying these instead of the high-priced Gibson, so naturally Gibson is discontinuing them. They are made in Japan - just excellent. I recently picked up the Elitist faded SG from them and love it to death - much better than the two Gibson SG '61 reissues I have been through. DMiller - you have a great collection! That mandolin is awesome, plus the other guitars you mentioned. Also, that Yamaha you have by Soldano is very sought after - hang on to it. If you guys ever want to read about something you are thinking of buying, whether guitar, amps, effects, etc., go to Harmony-Central.com. Go to guitars, and go to reviews. They have reviews by people like you and me and you can check and find out if something's hype or the real deal. Its an amazing database. OK, I've talked too much now, hope I didn't kill this thread!

Well, I'll chime in here, great thread. I have wayyyy too many guitars. I counted them up the other day - 36! But, I love them all! They are all unique and different. They all get played too. Sometimes its a strat day, sometimes, out come the LPs, sometimes my pointy metal guitars, sometimes the hollowbodies, sometimes the SGs. I think its compensation for all my years in TWI. But, I have been playing in bands regularly, they've accumulated over the years - they didn't all just appear overnight. Last week, a Kramer '80s Barretta with a Kline graphic fell in my lap for only $350. I wish I had played these years ago. Just when I think GAS is over, along comes something else! But now that I'm older - I really don't care if I ever play in a band again. I've been thinking of whittling down the collection. I'll still be playing when I'm a little old lady - through my Marshall stack and Peavey XXX! Guitar is a wonderful thing.

I disagree with Martindale's take on forgiveness. In life, people do terrible things and will never "pay" for it. Many of those wronged will never see "justice." Just as Christ forgave those that killed him, I'm sure the perpertrators never paid for what they did in this life, they just went on about their lives. To me, forgiveness is not for the other person, they'll probably never know if I've forgiven them or not. Forgiveness is for me, for my benefit. The Word tells us to walk in light and not in darkness. In my life, I forgive so that I may walk in light, not darkness. When we have anger, rage, something gnawing at us, in some ways we walk in darkness - there's always a cloud hovering in us in the back of our minds. We truly cannot be free to walk as free as we may desire to. Forgiveness I think, is more for a person's own walk, is more to free the individual wronged, and not the one who did the wrong. Its for my benefit, not necessarily the other person's benefit.

Actually, I tend to agree with TempleLady here (even though I am trinitarian :) First, I need to do more study on the sacrificial lamb that had all of Israel's sins put on it and was sent to wander the wilderness and die. I believe it was cursed, alone and forsaken. Christ was that lamb for us. At the end of the psalm, when Christ says, "It is finished," he gave a loud cry and gave up his spirit (KJ says ghost, but I believe spirit is a better translation). He willingly gave up his spirit, as God's son, as the only human who ever comprehended him, as one who had been with God before, shared God's essence intimately, and had since the beginning, to purposely separate from this and give up his spirit, must have been agonizing. Yes, I agree also he spoke the Word so people would know, this was truly him, but he was also the cursed lamb redeeming mankind. I believe the Psalm was appropriate to him, he was forsaken, he knew it, but it was something that must be done, but he knew, even in this condition, he would be entering into God's city. He would not be forsaken forever.

I read this "trilogy" in psalms yesterday. It is just amazing. At the end of chapter 24, its entering into God's Gate - total triumph. These three psalms begin with the total depths of human suffering, when it feels God has forsaken mankind, to the victorious hope, knowledge and glory of God. How they build from total despair to total glory. I find it fascinating this is possibly what Christ was thinking of when he died. Christ was the sacrificial lamb, the one, who according to law, had everyone's sins laid upon him outside the camp. Christ took the world's sins, yes, he was forsaken and estranged from God, just as the first Adam was in the Garden. I have no problem with these words, whether to begin the psalms, or Christ's recitation of them before his death. Read the three chapters in psalms (22-24), then go to the gospels and read of his crucifiction and death, it "fits" very well.

Dmiller, that is awesome, makes a lot of sense. I didn't mean he literally died right then. I think the "It is finished" phrase at the end - interesting. I saw a show on TV recently about some people who had been stranded at sea adrift on a raft. One woman died, but as she was dying of thirst and infection and almost out of her mind, she started quietly singing in tongues, the other two survivors were amazed. I know its conjecture, maybe Jesus was doing the same thing.

It almost sounds as if Jesus was reciting this to himself, he starts off the first line then gives up the ghost.

Ex10 - yes, it makes total sense!

Top of the world, when I left, I kind of gave the Bible a "rest" for awhile. Like you, through that, I still had a bedrock core that no matter what, I could never give up God and Christ. Over time, I would get some thoughts, concepts, impressions and go to the Word. God continued to work with me even without "likeminded" TWI believers. I have realized, we humans can not inhabit the spiritual, heavenly realms. We were not phyically made for that, although some think mysticism, knowledge, renewed mind, believing images of victory, etc. will get us there, or bend the spiritual realm to our will. Our job is to live here and now where we are, in the flesh, in the material world and yet, at the same time follow Christ. No wonder the angels desire to look into this. They must wonder what gives a human the ability to trust and follow that which they cannot see. One day, we will have new spiritual bodies, we will be clothed with the proper clothing to enter into the spiritual realm. Christ has to bring us there, it is not of our doing, will, "believing," etc. VP's teaching of "believing" makes it your fault if something goes wrong. Its a terrible burden - because you were not believing - something must be really wrong with you - you're such a failure in your own and God's eyes because you just can't do such a simple think like "believe." And of course, people learn to keep secrets and only project their smiley face. This is not God's will.

I had left after being corps and staff at various locations, and, after being fed up with being staff and the absolute pettyness I witnessed amoung the "spiritual heavies," fled to the field, where I was able to ween myself out of TWI. I made the final break in '88. I went on with my life, but it was about 10 or so years after I left, it was slow at work one day so I decided to search for TWI. Well, I stumbled upon Nowayout and trancechat. All the emotions I thought were over bubbled up. I think the first time I posted on trancechat, even though I had been out for years, was a really nervous experience. I don't know what I thought would happen. After time, hey, I even argued with people! Than came Waydale, then here. I think its a fabulous site and does a great service. I almost sometimes feel like GS is a continuation of TWI - we're out, older, wiser, but many of us still love God. I feel like its the body of Christ chatting amoung ourselves - we're still dialoging - its our fellowship in some ways. Face it, TWI was so intense - who really could understand it unless they were in it themselves? Also, people in other groups and denominations are so surprised we are still going strong after all these years. They wonder what had such a hold on us - maybe us little "jesus freaks" really did experience God's love and Grace and have never forgotten what once was and what should have been.

Ex, regarding your question, sometimes in specific situations, there is no "revelation" - yet, as I look back over things, in hindsight, I can see God was somewhere in the situation. We are to trust him that He knows our need for that situation, even if we don't yet. I think TWI, with its control, taught people that we are to be always in "control." Well, the truth is - we aren't. That's why so much is by "faith" or trust. I too have realized over time that TWI overcomplicated so many things, I can now understand why Jesus used the illustration of children, you really have to keep your trust in him simple, yet steadfast. We trust the promises in the Word, which to me, aren't so much "specific" but more large - that Christ will return - no matter what, that he loves us no matter what, that he wants the best for us no matter what. Sure, if there's a specific situation, I pray about it, and give it to God and thank him for taking care of it in his way, but I think a more day-to-day walking in the knowledge of his love is maybe what God also had in mind for us. Its an unshakeable knowingness in your heart.

Years ago in TWI, I started having doubts about the "magic of believing." I did a word study and found the word faith (or as TWI translated it - believe or believing) has nothing to do with what TWI taught. Rather, it is much more closely aligned with the word "trust." Sure, we can ask for something, but instead of getting the mental mind picture, dwelling on it and "believing" for it to come to pass, God instructs us to trust him. I had realized, while in TWI, that when I was believing for something, the answer always came in a way I never thought of, and had nothing to do with my mind picture or what I was staying my mind on. I eventually got the message. I never use the word "believing" or "believe" anymore. Its trust. I am not such an arrogant creation to believe that my mind can order or direct God, the creator, about and make him do my will. When I read Hebrews with all the great "believing" victories, or faith or trust stories, I realized that: Moses just didn't get the idea to part the Red Sea then "believe" for it to come to pass, God told him He would do this. Moses "trusted" God's word and the miracle came to pass. The walls of Jericho didn't fall because Joshua mentally decided that's the way he would defeat the city, and kept an image in his mind. No, God told him he would make the walls fall down. Joshua's job was to trust God to bring it to pass - in God's way, even though 5 senses-wise, to most people it seems like an absurd idea. My point is, it was God who FIRST gave the revelation and men believed, or trusted that what God said would come to pass. If you or I want to move a mountain, it will not come to pass unless God first tells us to move it. TWI has taken that verse way out of context. You can "believe" until you're blue in the face, but it will not move. It is so much easier to "trust" God, give it to him and not worry about it. Let him bring something to pass in the way he sees fit, and not as I direct him to do. That's the great thing about faith, or trust - you must literally step out into his arms - you will not fall. The whole "law of believing," "magic of believing" or whatever you want to call it has its roots in theosophy, and ancient "mystic" occult practices. In many ways, TWI was a gnostic ministry - something for another thread.

From what I've been reading lately regarding the history of "pretribulation" and rapture (gathering together for us) movements taking place before the tribuation, Scofield was a huge, possibly, "THE" major influence on America's Charistmatic/evangelical movement (of which TWI is). The rapture of Christians BEFORE the tribulation - or, the great escape - is a very recent, new doctrine in church history. Its a "new" doctrine, less than 200 years old, gaining momentum in the 1830s or so, because of several prophecies. Several people took that and ran with it. Scofield was a disciple of this new "revelation." So much so, that he redid the Bible and put his own notes in there. This version of the Bible became dominant in America over time. It has had a tremendous influence in America. All Christians who believe they will be raptured before the tribulation and before Christ's Second Coming in the US, are pretty much a direct result of Scofield's influence. I recall VP mentioning Scofield's name. I'm sure he read it. Other disciples were people he mentions as being friends with. From other reading, I have come to realize TWI was a gnostic outfit. Maybe I'll post some stuff on that on another thread.

I wasn't thinking of dispensationalism at all reading Peter and Jude. I've come to the conclusion the Bible is not divided into dispensations or administrations. My point is, sometimes, it seems the world is going to pot and we get to watch its end coming in the comfort of our easy chairs as we watch the news in the evening. It was just a thought that struck me as I read, and for me, the books seemed to open up much more. Also, if you've read the book of Enoch, which Jude quotes, it makes even more sense. Just my thoughts.

Rascal, it will be interesting to hear your thoughts. I found it interesting I Peter starts off with, well, I was going to speak to you about something, but its urgent for me to now speak to you about this... and he goes on. As I said, it just struck me as to what specific time period these books were for.

Coolness, I was on staff at H.Q. when CG was ordained. I think it was done after a SNS, before he was getting ready to leave for Europe. It was a small, private ceremony. Someone who was there told me he and VP were giggling together during the whole ceremony. I thought that was weird. I felt surely, something that great (as we were taught to believe), would have been a serious, solemn, dignified occassion.

Rascal, read the book of Jude, then go to I and II Peter. Jude first. I rarely ever used to read those books until recently, when after reading them a light bulb went off in my head - those books are for us now, today, in this specific age, right before the Book of Revelations kicks in. Read what it has to say about who is really leading the church, and much of Christianity. That's why I ask, where is your Pastor leading you? Also, the men who grew TWI, Heefner, Doop, Fugit, et al., there is no doubt in my mind these were true Christian men, who's ministry was literally grabbed from them. Once it grew, VP told Doop and Heefner - the money goes to me know boys - they were smart enough to see they had been conned and said, see ya later. Us "regular" Joe believers, I believe most of us were born again. Most people did not want to go corps, wow, or hang with VP. Top leadership, those who seemed to have no problem kissing VP's butt, zooming to the top - well, it takes one to know one. I always think of CG and VP, when he was privately ordained, both laughing through the "ceremony" like it was a big joke. To them it was - sadly, the joke was on us.

I believe true, profound change, comes from God working in our lives. It is the holy spirit that convicts us, and enables us to change. When we follow Christ, we will change. In TWI, we studied the Word and retemorized it, or memorized it, or repeated a verse over and over, like a mantra. Most of us never really changed. I realized years ago, retemories, renewed mind, or whatever rule was in vogue in TWI - it was futile, it was a work of the flesh. Flesh can never be, become, or be transformed into, spirit or peer into God's kingdom. Anyone can memorize the Bible. Wasn't it Nikita Kruschev, who had the gospels memorized? Just because LCM, with a photographic memory, can memorize and spew it and wow the corps, what good did it do him? What good did it do VP? We are flesh. We are a fallen race. Occassionally, God gives us a glimpse into another place. This carries us. This is why it is grace - the only way we can know anything of the spirit is by grace, what God chooses to reveal to us, what we certainly don't deserve to know. We are flesh, for anyone to think he can raise himself up enough to peer into the spirit realm, they are fooling themselves. That's why its grace, and that's why someday, we will be a new creation - sons of God. We will then have the new body, mind and tools to enter the spiritual kingdom - freely given to us by God - not of our works. All of creation waits for this - for our true, new selves to be revealed. I long ago gave up on doing this or that. It was very freeing. I acknowledge God and he honors that. Any change that is needed, trust me, he will let you know and he will give you the desire to carry it out. And that is why, I cannot comprehend how some of our leadership was cruel, destructive and psychopathic in their total lack of empathy or heart. They had no knowledge of God in their soul. I really believe, someone who is truly born again, could never act that way towards others. I just think it simply comes down to, some in power simply weren't born again. That's why they got an almost sadistic pleasure in leading the flock on some strange paths.

Well, the scripture that says it for me, is no marvel, Satan's ministers are transformed into angels of light. I truly think, as in many churches, many times, the leadership is not born again. Rather, they lead their flock away from the truth, Christ, than towards the truth. Ask yourself, where did TWI lead you? I honestly believe some high-ranking TWIers, including VP, were not born again. They loved the power and men's adulation. I also believe many higher ups were/are born again, but have had to squelch the small voice within to survive the TWI lifestyle. Give them a couple of years out, and their true, authentic self returns. They shed the false spiritual "persona" mask they wore for years. And it is liberating - there's nothing better than to be your "true" self. I think the vast majority of us regular believers, and even corps were born again - I know the people I hung out with were wonderful and would never dreamed of treating people in the callous way leadership did. In TWI, the saying was illustrated - birds of a feather flocked together.

I wasn't raised in a church. I got in TWI when I was 15 in 1970. I just went along and agreed that Jesus was not God. After I left, around '88, I continued to read my Bible. About a year or so later, I read the first part of the Gospel of John and was electrified - saw it like I had never seen it before - I can only say it was a "mountaintop" experience. As time went on, this interesting idea, or concept started forming in my thoughts. I mused on it for about 6 months. It was totally different from anything that was taught in TWI. Finally, one day I was talking to a friend who was ex-TWI and had left and was in a divnity school studying for her masters so she could pastor a church. So I decided to run it by her. She listened and then told me I had just described the trinity. I didn't know, I just thought I was seeing some interesting things. I also found, there are several different thoughts on the trinity. Its not the simple cut and dried thing VP taught. Is it an issue with me regarding other Christians - of course not. Each person's walk with God is their's alone. I do agree with the above poster though, that VP terribly misrepresented the trinity. I've found its probably the only topic, even if someone has been out for years, they are truly either afraid to look at or stand in cement by what VP taught - they will absolutely not consider anything else. I think that's a great disservice VP did.

I think a great point made was, most of us in the early days did come directly from Doop's or Heefner's ministry, not VPW's ministry. In fact, without them, I doubt VP would have made much impact at all. I just cannot see us little hippies following a 50 something year old guy. VP was smart and used the men with true ministries, Doop and Heefner to build his ministry for him, then co-opted it.

Top of the World, maybe read my post again. I do not have a problem with anyone's sexuality. I do have a problem with hypocrisy and witch hunts - which we know DM helped lead enthusiastically. That's sick and hypocritical.

I understand about some type of bondage. If DM and R are a couple, I have no problem with that, people's orientation is their own business. I would think it would be a lot of pressure to keep up the pretense of being straight to the TWI folk. I also find it terribly hypocritical. Its a terrible charade and will take its toll. Someones true self eventually cannot be hidden and must come out. If they are a couple, if they were honest, they would leave TWI and live their lives happily together somewhere else without the lies they must keep up. They'd be a lot happier. More power to them if they did that.

Ahhhh.... Its good to be King!