Sunesis

Awesome sharings Catcup and Dot. Yet, somehow, I am not surprised. Oldies, after sharing their hearts on their lives and marriages, that's all you have to say? All you can muster up? Shallow.

Great post Revvel, please continue, many are reading...

Wow Tom, thank you for sharing that. I think you are right, drugs were being pushed out by the Holy Spirit. I know several people from my high school who did them and after a few fellowships stopped doing them. The part about Heefner, as you walked in, thanking God for deliverance from the drug heroin - that's what I saw, things that maybe applied to one person, walking with God, they knew, they followed the guidance of the Holy Spirt, and people got delivered. And you'd watch these guys, called by God to lead us, and the things they did and said that were from God. There was a sense that the Holy Spirit was with them and us. They were our older experienced teachers. They taught, and their actions backed it up, people were delivered - and they did it so naturally - true ministry of evangelization in action. People saw power in their friends' lives and deliverance, they wanted the Word too.

Waytomuch - yes, that thought had crossed my mind :) I see, looking back in hindsight, where VP, in order to be successful, hijacked two ministries. The first, was B.G. Leonard's - he stole his class, almost word for word, charts, etc. This class gave him a product to sell. The second, was his going to CA, and finding men who would win the youth for him. He knew he never could. VP could be very loving and charismatic and kind to people when he wanted something or their allegiance. I do not fault Doop or Heefner at all. They heard the Word in PFAL, which was Leonard's teaching and realized this was a great way to get the message out. It was a tool for them to spread the Word. All of the members in TWI were a direct result of Doop and Heefner. As we kids moved, we told others. The hippie kids got in TWI because of these two in CA and NY, some travelled to Kansas and other states - over a couple of years it moved out all over the country. Remember, the sixties and early '70s was a time of wandering, hitchhiking youth all over the place, a nomadic generation. Once Doop and Heefner were gone, you never had quite the explosion of the early years. Yes, people were won for a while after, mostly by men who had been with Doop and Heefner, but that leveled off, the explosiveness was lost. Once VP took the reigns it became rule oriented. I remember I was sorely disappointed in '71 when I was told I couldn't fellowship in Rye anymore, I now had to go to Larchmont fellowships. All of a sudden, the go where you want, fellowship with whoever, was being taken away. The rules started coming down, many of us started drifting away. It started becoming corporate under VPs rule - and I believe he knew exactly what he was doing, since, with the expulsion of Doop and Heefner, it was now "his" ministry. Yes, I have wondered what would have happened if VP hadn't stuck his finger in the pie and siphoned off, maybe one-third of the movement to himself. He would have been a little preacher on a cornfield with a handful of followers. VP could never have attracted the hippie youth people by himself. Never in a million years.

jr4jc - LOL!!! That cracked me up.

If you do a search on the net re: Jesus Movement or Jesus Freaks, you can find the history of a true revival among us young kids that was a true movement of God in the mid'60s through early '70s. As time goes on, I believe it is us who have loved God since those days and our kids and grandkids who may be the last generation before the Lord returns. The Jesus movement was a true revival, which has not been seen since in the U.S. Wise, Heefner, Dopp, Lonnie Frisbee, and a few others, were the ones God worked with to bring this about. It all started with a vision and revelation to Lonnie Frisbee, who won literally thousands to the Lord in California. He was 18, 19? I consider Jim Dopp to be not only a spiritual man, but a founder, and historical figure of this movement, along with Frisbee, Heefner and a handful of others. Jim Dopp is living history. My take, from what I know is that these men, inspired of God, started a true revival. VP reads about it and went to California for the sole reason of finding these men. He did not go for loving reasons. He plays the class for them, Frisbee and others leave after a few sessions and decide to keep doing what they were doing, the result is the Vineyard here and in Canada. Dopp and Heefner liked the class, go to H.Q. and one does the Way West, the other the Way East. I was there - a "groovy Christian of Rye" in high school in the Way East in NY. I have never seen another revival like this in my lifetime. It truly was amazing. VP promises them there will be little intereference in their ministries. Then, VP sits back and waits. He waits for these men to grow THEIR ministries. Once it gets big enough, he fires them - publically. He humiliates, shames and demeans them, in front of the body of Christ, and the money is now sent to H.Q. VP now takes over. My feeling is, VP hijacked these mens' ministries. VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing, - he waited until the evangelization these men and their ministries were doing for God resulted in thousands of people being won to Christ through them. VP waited until it was exploding then fired them, and took their ministries for himself. He was able to get two of the founders of a true revival of God to our baby-boom generation, away from the true movement and into his. The men were young, they loved God and his Word, and were manipulated by VP. They woke up soon enough though. Compare the fruit of those men who, in the meetings and class VP ran for them when he first visited, decided not to go with him and continue with their ministries. Result? The Vineyard is still thriving and growing today, TWI is a dead ministry. Regardless though, Dopp, Heefner, and others will have their rewards in heaven.

Dmiller, the special forces and Iraqis had the house surrounded and quite a few other locations. The military then called in the airstrike. The Iraqis went first to the house to check (probably so no one could say the americans murdered poor Zarqawi) and found him in the basement under a slab that had fallen and brought him up. Of course the military was there, why wouldn't they be?

I think God gives individuals many chances in their lifetimes. I ran across an interesting website awhile ago. It was a book written by a preacher in the 1860s. His "hobby" was collecting deathbed stories, and the difference between those who were Christians and those who weren't when they died. There were a couple hundred stories. The Christian deaths became pretty much the same after awhile, sad to be dying but looking forward to being with their Savior. Some even had visions of him and/or heaven before they died. The fascinating ones, to me though, were people who didn't believe. Many of them would be on their beds and family and friends telling them, its not too late, accept Christ. Most of them would not. The main reason was, they said, was that they had had their chance and rejected him. Many even told exactly when God had reached out to them, the exact moment of decision. Family would say, well, its still not too late, and they would be adamant that it was. there were also some of them who had a vision of where they were going and were horrified, they would be told its not too late, you don't have to go there, and they, almost to a man said, no, I chose this, this is what I deserve. I think it can be too late. I note in the Bible, the free gift of eternal life is available to all that call on Christ, or, I think to all who truly call on God, whether they knew/or were allowed to know Christ or not. Thus, we read peace on earth, good will towards men. But, Christ also said he prayed not for the world, but for those the Father had given him. The NT basically divides mankind into the "world" and those who are Sons of God - we are to be a brand new creation someday - up there with Angels - no wonder the angels desire to look into what shall be - I've digressed. I have also read contemporary stories of people who also knew exactly when the choice was offered. I really do think God gives us many times and places for choice. If Zarqawi did not accept, that was his choice. I think we are told to pray for evil men also so that the holy spirit can keep their deeds in check, or if they are in power, that they will one day topple. When we are taken,and there is no more holy spirit and comforter upon the earth, and the wrath commences, I cannot imagine living in a world where there is no living christ among humans to keep evil in check. I do thank God we are saved from the wrath, as God moves to restore the earth and creation to the perfection it once had.

I agree, its great to have you here. Its great to hear an "outsiders" perspective on TWI and its classes - and its absolutely right on. I will say though, I did learn quite a bit of Word from the classes, and if it had been left at that, it would have been fine, but you had this hierarchy, more classes, and I watched as TWI became more structured. I got in when I was in high school in NY, during the "Jesus Freak" movement - we were all little hippies - back then it was great, no big leadership, go to fellowship, smoke a joint after, love each other with the love of God, it was a couple of years later when I saw the changes start to happen, such as, you can't go to this fellowship anymore, you must go to one on your neighborhood, uh-oh, watch out for devil spirits, etc. - subtle changes, that kept getting worse over the years. VP sat back as the kids won each other to God, waited for it to grow, then clamped down. Keep sharing, and don't be afraid to put your 2 cents in on the "About the Way" threads or others. This man John, sounds like he was very unstable before he found TWI, and TWI has exacerbated the problem. I agree, set your boundaries and limits and do not allow him in your life - at all. We cannot "fix" people, they must decide to change thier own life. Certainly pray for him, but it will be God working with him. If he ever heals, maybe he will remember your example one day. But it sounds like he's been in TWI for so long, maybe since his youth, that he has no clue how people in the "real world" actually are, what's appropriate, and what's not. As for kids, and your town being a college town, I would possibly see if an article could be run on TWI in the college newspaper, so kids know what to look out for. I am sure there will be "witnessing" on the campus, especially if there are new corps coming to town. Probably one of the reasons they were sent there is because it is a college town and TWI needs new, young members.

Dancing, you're new here, but I don't understand your hostility. Sure, Revvel posts on a lot of other boards, so what? Why are you so angry at him? I for one, and others, have enjoyed reading this, its food for thought - whether one chooses to believe it or not. This is the "Doctrinal" section where doctrine is discussed, and Revvel has every right to post. Revvel, I've really enjoyed this, I can't "discuss" it with you because I pretty much agree with everything you've shared, and hope you will continue to share with us.

I saw a special on Discovery, A&E, National Geographic - one of those channels on the bloodline and DNA of the descendants of Jesus and Mary. They were able to get DNA from Catherine of Aragon (I think that was her name) who is entombed in a church in France, one of those european countries, who died in 600 AD and is considered one of the direct descendants of the union of Jesus and Mary. Her offspring are also descendents - they are Merogovians. The thesis was, that if she was a direct descendant of this union, she would have DNA markers of middle eastern people in her DNA - a remnant. They then took DNA from one of the last remaining peoples who speak aramaic in the middle east, descended from the area Christ came from. Well, anyway, Catherine turned out to have no, none, nada, middle eastern DNA genetic markers - she's all european, all the way. So, the whole thesis of his book is shot. It had a lot more things that were easily debunked. Good show, if its on again, I'll let you know.

What memories you dredge up Excath and Igotout. Yes, a whole year on Romans 1:1 (it seemed like) - talk about boredom. Could you imagine how different it would have been had we had text messaging? It would have been a riot, random giggles breaking out here and there. I imagine they would have been banned.

Nice Ramble Sirguess! Just as Eastern religion and its accompanying mysticism has been around for a few thousand years, while Christianity is relatively new, I feel if the Lord tarries, eventually Christianity will evolve and acquire its own mysticism. I mean mysticism in a spiritual sense, not an occult sense. I see many Christians today "waking up" out of their sleep, so to speak. God and Christ are not limited to a book. As the Gospel writer stated, all the books in the world could not contain the things Christ did. I think Bible gives us the truth, points the way and the Holy Spirit, which Christ sent into the world and gave to us who believe, carries us beyond, in a spiritual sense. We need the Word, but the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and gives us a glimpse of another place.

When you sleep you dream. You are still aware - you are still there. But I cannot compare sleeping with being dead and loss of consciousness and loss of the soul.

Interesting points. I think my point about Lazarus and this parable Jesus taught, is that, every other parable Jesus taught, had a deep truth. They were all based on truth. A mustard seed, a fig tree, etc. I cannot understand why Jesus would use something not true, or false, to illustrate his point that there is more to life than what we see on this earth with our 5 senses. I cannot see him lying about this other place. His going to sheol and preaching to the spirits which were imprisoned (the ones held who tried to destroy mankind in Gen. 6 by hybredization), those held captive, and releasing them and bringing them with him to Heaven, i.e., the firstfruits, the first sheaf, I find not so far fetched. As to those who are "dead in Christ." Where are they now? In Christ. When we are told they will be raised, I believe this is when they receive their new bodies, right now they are seated, then they will be raised. But they are with him now. I also note Paul believed when he died he would be with Christ. If we have life and consciousness from the moment we are born, I think it odd, that God would blot out our consciousness when we die, then bring it back at the return. If we have eternity and eternal life, we can not be blotted out for a little bit. If that is so, then we do not really have eternal life. And if we could be blotted out so easily, what's to stop God from doing it again somewhere down the road in eternity? How can you totally trust a God who blots you out here and there for a bit? This "sleep," blot-out doctrine we were taught in TWI, is called the doctrine of annihilation. Most mainstream Christian churches, organizations and early doctrine do not agree with it.

Sorry I haven't responded, I've been working and taking care of some family things. I realize I should have explained my thinking on Ezekiel 32 more. First off, I do believe, in Ecc. 3:11 where it says that God has put eternity in our hearts, that he means this literally. We are eternal beings - our flesh is not, but our soul is. For the last couple of years I have read quite a few "near death experiences" ("NDEs") - its an interesting topic which for some reason, I became interested in. The more you read, the more you see the similarities and commonalities in these experiences. The ones I found very interesting though are the ones that were not so nice - in fact downright terrifying, where the person found himself in hell (no, not a burning lake) - a place where there is no God, a nightmare that only Christ could rescue them from. Many of these have eerily similar commonalities. They describe a descending pit, with cubes on either side stacked or lining the walls of the pit. Each person has their own cube where they await the final judgment. As, in Ezekiel 20, 21, these people wait on their "bed" (or literally "chamber" in the Hebrew) for the final judgment. They are in torment. It is not God tormenting or torturing them, it is their mind. While in their cube, or chamber, they live in a world without God, as was their desire, and relive the lives they have led. The best work I ever read on this was a book called, The Unknown Land: Hell's Dominion (available on Amazon). But it is a common theme, that people who survive these unpleasant journeys, describe the pit, the cubes, or some call them cells, that people are in, while fallen angels, demons or whatever you want to call them play with them in their cells, maybe pretending to be a relative, friend, and afflict the same things on them they did while on earth. That's why I mentioned Ezekiel 32, it is similar to these experiences, the ones who have gone to the grave, down into the pit, and are awaiting final judgment, like as with the queen upon her bed (or in her chamber) in Ezekiel. The account Christ gave regarding Lazarus is also interesting. The rich man had a memory of this life, could hear, could see, could remember, could communicate - he was consciously aware. There was a gulf between where he was and "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise (Abraham's Bosom was another euphimism for paradise, before it was available to enter into heaven). When Christ died, he went to this place - the grave or sheol, and preached, he also released those in Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise and, by what he had accomplished through his holiness, he brought them to heaven with him. Imagine their surprise, those OT believers when the redeemer they had believed for, died for and been martyred for, whom they had believed in, a promise afar off, but never lived to see on earth, when he came for them. So, to me, the latter part of Eze. 32, from verse 20 on, seems to give an interesting description of life in the grave and corresponds in some ways to what people have experienced and come back to write about. Christ also admonishes us to guard your soul. Don't worry about he who can kill the body, but he who can destroy your soul (in hell) - note, it does not say kill your soul. I also believe God means it when he says he is not the God of the dead but of the living. The eternal soul is that, eternal. Where it chooses to go - he must give it its desire. No matter where it chooses to go - God will not, and cannot kill it. He will give it its own habitat, fitting with its nature, but he will not kill. That's why I think when people say, oh, when you die you fade out, its oblivion, there is no "hell," etc., its basically putting off a choice. There is much more about the soul in the Word, and about sheol, the grave, etc. I do believe, in these days, God is calling people to him and bringing to light things that were once known and understood, but lost, or swept under the rug, and trying to get people to see the seriousness of their choices. Anyway, as some of you know, that's my opinion, and of course, as time goes on, it is subject to change. :)

I believe in the OT they most certainly did know where the souls of the dead went. Read Ezekiel 32 - the pit and its description. Many times the psalmist, David and others prayed God their souls would not go down to this "pit" when they died. Jesus talks about it in the Gospels, the place of darkness and the place of paradise, and the great gulf between them. I believe much of what they commonly knew has been lost, especially the seriousness of this place. The whole concept of "hell", or as I like to think of it, the place without God, has been turned into a joke. No one reeaallllyyy believes it, not a sophisticated thinking, modern man. I think God is revealing it once again (read: Hell's Dominion, my Journey into Hell - on Amazon.com). There's plenty of information on this. I like the flowery, symbolic interpretation of the Bible as much as anyone, but it seems, it also obscures the true intent of the Bible - to bring one to Christ. It can be another way of avoiding making a decision.

Ok Sprawled out, enough. You just reiterated it was a story - again, a 2nd time - right before this. Then, for some reason, you think I should discuss it more. Ok, whatever. So what is there to discuss????? Its just a "story" you don't like. Not much to discuss there. Then you give the line: It is typical of Christians.... Well, I'm glad you know what's typical of all Christians everywhere, especially if you don't agree. I've been on message boards long enough not to like veiled insults. Yeah, ok, we're all stuck in waybrain land, according to you - believe what you want about all of us "typical" Christians. I guess we're all just typical Christians, and you're not. Must be nice being a special Christian, so untypical like us unwashed, ignorant, ex-twi masses. I think you need to read the posts that have been shared and try to understand people have been trying to communicate with you, sharing their hearts, and you just could care less. This "typical" Christian is going to bow out of this thread.

Well, my feeling is, I put a lot of time and thought into my first post. Sprawled's response was, its a nice story, but basically no dice. Ok. Fine. There was no discussion. It was dismissed. It was just a nice story. No discussion, just dismissal. So what more is there for me to say? We don't agree and nothing I say will change that. I've seen over time, the only thing that has ever changed my mind, is Holy Spirit working in and teaching me. If you've seen my posts over the years, you've seen me go from Universalist, a deep crisis of faith about if Jesus even existed, and the one thing I believe God let me find, an article on the net, that sealed it for me that he truly did exist, from non-trinitarian to trinitarian, from dismissing Gen. 6 to realizing it was true and how the Bible fit because of it and the ramifications, for Israel, the earth and the end times and the delusion to come and the apostasy, to believing God was cruel and unloving to realizing the opposite, to believing Revelation was a fairy tale to a somewhat understanding of it - the list goes on. But its been a continuous journey of seeking and searching and God has honored my desire to know him and led me to the people and/or information that's out there written by other Christians to slowly put the pieces together and answer my questions. I also think people overlook the fact, that many people in TWI were not born again Christians. There were other great things, like the people, the love, the fellowship we had, etc. that attracted people to TWI. There are posters here who will tell you they've rejected God and never really, in the depths of their hearts, did believe in Christ or God. That's not unusual, you'll find the same thing in churches. So maybe that's what Sprawled or others are coming to terms with - maybe you don't believe. If so, shake off the chains of Christianity that bind you and make your own meaning in life. Or, if my views seem silly, or just a nice story, do a google search on a topic you'd like to learn more about - there's plenty of great stuff on the net (and crackpot stuff to), but search it all and hold fast the good. I'm no great or learned person, but all I'm saying is that I took the time to think out and try to give a coherent answer to the question and it was dismissed out of hand.

Sprawled out, I responded twice. I've been busy and just returned. From reading your previous posts, it seems you already have your mind made up. So much so, that I now wonder why you even bothered asking your question. I don't think you want to hear what others believe or have to say, I think you are looking for someone to validate your opinion. That's fine. I'm sure you'll find someone. Plenty of people don't believe in the big mean ol' God. You're in good company. I mean that seriously. You're on your own journey and nothing I can say is going to change your mind, sway you, make you see something with a different point of view, and that's not up to me either. Its the Holy Spirit that works in us and allows us to see. Not man's words. I've swung from being raised in the occult, to a LaVey fan, to near athiest, to agnostic, to believer - don't worry, nothing anyone can say puts me in fear of my belief system being challenged. I like honest questions, and I like to be challenged, but you still seem to be in the beginning of your search, that age old question, asked by mankind - why is there evil? Why does God send us to hell. This is hardly a challenge to anyone's belief system. But a few posts up, you told us what you thought, so I see no point in responding further. You read what I had to say, and thought it was a nice story. Fine. You don't like what CM has to say - fine. You've pretty much dismissed anything that's not what you want to hear. What's the point in me sharing anything else? None.

Well Catcup, that's a darned good opinion - I wholeheartedly concur. Signed, Your fellow Scum of the Crik

Happy Birthday Jonny! Its been great knowing you since we were little pups in MD!! Have a great one!

I have not felt led to seek out a church. I left TWI in '88 after being in from age 15-33. I feel I have had enough "meetings" to last a lifetime. I feel the same as others, I will not allow anyone else to control my life, try to tell what to do, what is "spiritually best" for me, what they think God wants me to do, etc. I have never lost my love for God and Christ though. I believe God still works with us and teaches us - I do not need a church for that. Actually, I have met some wonderful Christians who do not go to church either. We can sit and talk about anything doctrinally, no matter how out - there's no church to say you can or can't consider this or that idea. In fact, I came to the conclusion years ago, that I think many of your "true" (for lack of a better word) Christians are not in the churches. Organized religion is stifling. I really believe there's a difference between a personal relationship with God and Christ and what organized religion has to offer. So, no church for me.

Sounds like a plan Jonny, but I would consider several variables. Sounds like you want to live out in the country, or far suburbs. You would have to consider how long your commute from there would be into the city, with gas, and travel time. Some of the bigger cities in Texas have massive traffic. If you lived in the country would a one hour or two hour drive every morning and every evening, every single week day be ok with you? How much cheaper would it really be than alaska? and you're right, it is more "uncivilized." Would you really be spending every weekend fishing and rafting down the river? It could be a trek to get to those places. We are older. Sometimes you gotta stay where you are, make your money for retirement. If I were in your shoes, I figure when I could retire and with how much, and buy a home near where you want to do all the stuff and do it every day. Also, its not easy starting over at our age. You'll find your expenses down there a bit more than you think. also commissioned sales is not easy. Many people are great schmoozers but not good sales people. In sales, its not a 9-5 job. You'll be meeting with and wining and dining with clients during the evenings, be expected to show them a good time when they suddently pop into town, meet with them on weekends, etc. Your life will be less your own. You seem to enjoy the sea and the life you have now. I wouldn't be so quick to walk away from it. Just playing the devils advocate - You should do what makes you and your wife happy. Maybe you just need a vacation for a month or so. If you can deal with all that, go for it.

What's the alternative? Create robots? If one does not have free will, he is a robot, he would be a slave to the creator, not an autonomous being, where is the love and joy in that. One thing a creator does is create - like an artist. An artist must create, that's his mission, that's his joy. God's plan seems to be unfolding nicely. In the context of eternity, this hasn't taken all that long. One thing I have seen lately is the unique importance of an individual's soul. There must be something inherently awesome in the soul for God to go to the trouble of rescuing it, or reconnecting it, so to speak. As Christ said, don't fear them which can kill the body, but fear him which can destroy the soul, i.e., the important thing about a human is his soul. Since God cannot kill (yes, I know, people are killed everyday, but they are the victims of other men and their wills) that which he created - life - the soul, he has given you a choice to make - the onus is on you. I don't believe when you die its oblivion, that's it lights out. That's a nice cop out, a nice excuse to not have to make a decision. I have seen, that that which was created perfect was corrupted. In order to have a steward over his creation (Lucifer, Adam, Christ), the steward must have free will to make decisions. God's plan is simply to return to the uncorrupted perfection and free will, love and joy with his creation that was before Gen. 1:1. We live our lives here for a split second compared to eternity. Where do we want to go? Those who in their hearts chose not to know him, to not be with him, will not be. There's a lot in the Bible about this place where God is not. I'm not talking about a place of burning fire. I sometimes think God uses images to represent a place that cannot be comprehended. If people seriously thought, what would it be like to live in a place where there is no God, what kind of life would it be? A place where you and the disobedient ones whether human or angel, live in a place that has no God - no love, no light, no kindness, no possibility of crossing the chasm into "true" life with God, knowing you chose to be there and to make your abode there, because this was your true desire, I think people would possibly think deeper. There have been several books written about people's near death experiences who did not go to "heaven" but went to the place of no God. I think God is teaching people who are teaching it to others - that this is serious. I think the time is short and people are being given revelations and visions in order to win others. Things that were commonly known in the OT about this place are being revealed again and brought to light. But, the invitation has been offered, now the ball's in your court, the choice is up to you. Its God's will you come to him and be with him and enter INTO him through Christ. That's his will. But, he cannot, and will not, override your will. As I said, who and where do you want to spend eternity with?