Sunesis

I was lucky in that I lived in an area with RD, had family there on the east coast, and a relative who was a leader. What I appreciated was how open and honest RD was. He called a meeting with us corps, I think VF was there, I believe it was for the state. He just laid it on the line, what was going on, and we were losing the Ministry. I also had other connections. Then came the terribly sad corps week. When I got home, quite a few "regular" believers asked what was going on and I told them all I knew honestly. People have a right to know. This year was my physical break - I had already been gone mentally. I told my leadership I could not guarantee I would be with TWI at this time next year. I had had it. Then came the LCM loyalty letter, that was when the leadership were all fired. Oddly enough, none of them seemed too upset. The exodus had been brewing for a long time, God was working in people's hearts to get them out. Then in my area anyway, you had the war and battle for people between LCM and CG. CG, who I detested, won in my area.

WM was a region leader, 4th corps grad, W**ne M**ri*l. VF's legalism, from my vantage began after they were all fired after LCM's letter, and he decided to go with CG. Little things like, using a metronome to stay your mind while meditating on God. Telling a wonderful family of believers at WOW training they couldn't go WOW - after they had given up their apartment - do you know how hard it is to find a large apartment in NYC? He didn't tell them beforehand - nooooo, he waited until they got to HQ to spring it on them. When I found out from them at the rock I went to his room and let him have it. I told him he should be ashamed, how could he do that to people? They were devasted. He basically had no reply. Things like running "secret" CG classes, you had to be "spiritual" enough to ask if there was anything else available. Things like, they were checking everyone's believing. They really got into believing. The last time I saw him I told him God was about love and not believing and their judgmentalness was way off the Word. Never saw him again after that. His true legalism came after he left, he started a group with some corps guys - I don't know what it is now, but from people I know in that area, its kind of weird.

That is an excellent post Coolwaters, I totally agree. Good food for thought. I gave up years ago trying, via my renewed mind and believing, to become as Christ. It is as ludicrous and expecting that by careful training and nurture, my cat can acquire a human nature. No, sadly, he will always be a kitty. He cannot change his "cat" nature. As you said, the carnal mind is enmity against God, or also, who shall deliver me from this dead body (our old man nature?). Only Christ - when we put on our new bodies and our new nature. What ever it is we are to be, ALL of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God. Creation cannot wait to see what will be revealed, what we will be. Right now, we are a fallen race, all we can do is enjoy and walk in the gift of Christ's love and grace. Someday, our true nature, and a new creation shall be revealed. Until then, just love God and enjoy life. TWI did really put us into some strange ways of thinking.

There was no revelation in the name Takit. They brainstormed the name at H.Q. I was there for a bit in my last year in residence and I told VF after lunch one day I thought they should do a rock band to reach out to the kids. He thought it was a fabulous idea, conferred with other musicians, and the next week, announced the formation of the new group. From what I understand, VF was not part of the adultery thing. There were a few top leadership (RD, VF, WM and others) who were never approached, they found out with the rest of us. I have a feeling that's why they were so angry when stuff came out. I can imagine if VP had approached their wives, they would have been confronted by some very angry men - I wouldn't want to p.o. RD, VF or some others I can think of. VP was a predator, much of the time, a predator also knows who not to mess with. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding they were not part of the inner "sex club."

Sprawled Out, I think VF's appeal was he was a streetwise Brooklyn punk - he was a tough guy - but funny and fun. I liked him alot, we always got along great and joked around. That's why I was so disappointed to see the path he went down. He went way overboard into legalism. I confronted him twice about it. After that we never talked. He has his own ministry now. It has gone into legalism.

Well, for us Columbus folks, Columbus has made nationwide news! Here we go, get ready. Columbus is now the No. 3 city in the Nation - in having the most drunks. We are only behind Milwaukee, and I forget the other city - it too is in the midwest. Can't wait for the buckeye tailgate parties to rev up again shortly. :) Just thought I'd share!

I'm trying to think. Was that weird CG tape to the corps in 87? If it was, I was the only one in the room of 20 something corps who publically after listening to everyone say how great it was, gave a differing opinion. I said he was full of cr*p - literally. After that I was a marked woman. CG basically that year drew away all of NYC and the surrounding areas corps - VF was his representative in NY and he had gone totally into legalism. I had left in my heart. corps week 87 was so weird, I went back for one more time in '88 because my family was there. I think I left after the 2nd or 3rd day - just took one last look around, knew I was never coming back, and walked away. It was hard for me because the NYC corps were totally enamored with CG, so I was ostracized by them, and I knew the LCM remnant were also full of it. Finally, one other corps person came to her senses and we became great friends walking in freedom and out of the stifling legalism.

My thoughts as to why Mrs. W didn't leave after VP passed. Wasn't she in her '70s when he died? I think she was, although I am not sure. She was elderly. At that point, I would think, hey, he's gone. I have the house I've lived in all my life (have any of you had to try and get your parents to leave a place they've lived in for years? They don't want to). I have the farmland and countryside I love and have spent my life in. My children can come visit, but they're adult with their own children and lives. I think she was just too old and tired, and bound by roots, to even want to consider going anywhere else. She had friends there, her sister was there and her family, she knew people in the community outside of TWI. Was TWI going to buy her a house somewhere else? Doubtful, her kids were gone. I think she decided to enjoy some much earned peace and quiet in her later years. Sure, she was trotted out occassionally for meetings and public display, but she'd done that all her life, no biggie for her. If that's the price to pay, so be it. I probably would have made the same decision if I had been in her shoes.

Her and VP were dirt poor. Where was she going to go if she left? In those days women just did not leave their husbands. She was from a small town and would have been shunned. From what I heard back then, she couldn't go back to her family's farm, some of them had mental problems. I think she married VP at a young age to get away from her home. She had no money, nowhere to run, little kids. Yes, she knew what he was doing and it broke her heart. She had no power. I also think he would have made her life hell if she wanted to leave and would have made sure she was never allowed on grounds or to see the kids again. I'm sure there are reasons we'll never know as to why she stayed. I think she is given a pass because of the times, and because she treated people so wonderfully and graciously, she made the best of a bad situation. She carved out her own niche in intererior decorating and VP basically left her alone to do what she wanted. Plus, she was in charge of nursing and took care of people when sick. She never had to wish she had been the person she knew to be at the end of her life, as the above poster said. I guarantee you she felt great relief when he was gone.

I think in the beginning, VP needed leadership, as pretty much everyone in the early corps, 1-4 were ordained - men and women, all except DM for some reason, or if it was an already married couple, it was the man who was ordained, but VP was ordaining women. Then, we see, for the 5th corps, it was an invitation to all, or at least many, as several women accepted. I too, was told in the early days, the person who was ordained had a ministry, and of course, us peons would try and figure them out. I do remember, the women were always "pastors" - looking back on it, I think that was the generic ministry if they didn't have something obvious, but were nice people and played well with others. From 6th corps on, you had virtually almost no women ordained, I can think of two off the top of my head, but it became more rare. By that time, it had become the top reward a man could get. From then on, it was an incredible carrot incentive. I think the 7th was the last corps a woman was ordained - just two of them were, none from the 8th on. By then, I noticed, especially on the field, ordination became more of a reward for running lots of classes, or, if there was an area that needed a Rev. and someone was like by the people, and was in a branch or area leadership position, they were recommended for ordination. I knew many men in later corps, who would tell me over coffee, they were going to graduate the corps, run a lot of classes on the field and get ordained. Ordination became a big goal. They had their lives mapped out and by then had observed, and knew exactly what they had to do to win the big prize. One of the few women I knew in NYC who had a true evangelical ministry and won people and ran classes back to back and who was adored by her people, was promised ordination. She was 10th corps I think. She was just amazing. I ran into her at the last corps week where they had ordinations at corps week, or the rock, whenever it was, and she was devastated. They had told her that, now that they had men who had risen up to "believe" - women were no longer needed as reverends and would not be ordained. It was sad, she had a ministry, did more that most men in the state, but was denied. By the 9th corps on, corps women were to be twig leaders, support their husbands, or, if they were single, their mission was to support the local leadership. That was the leadership line by then. By then I was also wondering why some true a**holes and other idiots were being ordained, the whole thing was becoming suspect. My brother, who was a 12th corps grad, who was doing a great job as an area leader in a large city, was offered ordination. He also had a job doing what he loved and was doing very well at it. It had been his childhood dream to do this career, and he was in a place where it could happen and he was becoming very successful at it. He asked me what I thought, should he or shouldn't he? I honestly replied, no, don't do it. He asked me why, and I said, you will have to give up your career. You will belong to TWI, they will own you. They will probably ask you to go to a root location and coordinate or be an assistant corps coordinator, or go run a limb somewhere or go on staff. I told him if he didn't do what they asked, he would be considered a cop out. I said, you can do your career and still serve God's people. The funny thing is, everyone thought he was a reverend anyway - his inner city believers, but they thought he was humble because he never mentioned it or used the title. He decided not to, and is darned glad to this day that he didn't accept. I know there were some great clergy, men and women who truly deserved the title, but as time went on, I rarely saw anyone who had an obvious ministry. I think most of them didn't. they were more bureaucrats.

So you are saying the Judgment of the four horsement is specifically in that 1/4 of the earth around Jeruselem? Very interesting. Thanks for answering my question.

I appreaciate your studies Revel. Boy,there sure are a lot of "coincidences" in there aren't there? :) I think so many coincidences means its not coincidental. I'd like to see a part 2 - the rest of the feasts. Thanks for sharing. Great food for thought.

Thanks all. Hello Catcup, my fellow scum of the crik alumni! Yes, that's the point, which Catcup pointed out, that I was trying to make. The other ministries are still going strong and growing to this day. TWI has crashed and burned. I do not think the reason can be anything but spiritual. I agree, we were part of this genuine revival, under Heefner and Doop. My belief is it was hijacked, with a well planned and thought out strategy, by a wolf in sheep's clothing. That does not negate the fact, that God still loved and blessed us as much as possible, and gave us a way out - it was an exodus. I know in the first exodus, it was like, we all woke up at once - it really was like an awakening. I have to believe it was a move of the Holy Spirit among us. I also like Wordwolf's point that the remaining youth in TWI, if they want it to revive, will have to do it covertly. I do not believe any kind of revival of God is covert, if anything, its obvious and overt. Thus, a covert uprising of young TWIers will not work. Can you see San Francisco street people being welcomed at TWI? 35 years ago they were, but never today. The BOD wouldn't want any "impurity" in the household or on their hallowed grounds. The young TWI kids will have to break away. They will have to get to know the "absent" Christ. If there ever is a true spiritual hunger among the younger generation, God will raise someone up - it won't be TWIers or its offspring. P.S. Just saw your post Freeatlast - great points. Its great hearing from the younger generation what you were thinking. I'd like to know more.

From reading the history of the "Jesus Movement" revival and its beginnings in the mid-to late '60s through the early '70s, it got divided into basically 3 groups. The young man who started it, Lonnie Frisbee, and others, are the two groups who were not influenced by VP - they are still going strong today - the Vineyard and I think its Calvary church? I forget the name. But they have continued to grow over the years and today. When VP went to CA, he met with Lonnie, the other people and Steve Heefner and Jimmy Doop. He met with the men called to lead this revival, I think it was 5 men total. He played the class for them. Lonnie and the others left after the first few sessions and decided not to throw their hat in the ring with VP. We know what happened with Steve and Jim. I think the reason we got involved was because the origins of the movement were on the west coast. It spread up the coast, into Washington, Oregon and into Canada, it eventually moved out. But, VP, the marketer was the only one to have a ready made "product" to spread the Word with. He let people run the class, and as the kids became excited, they went to Kansas and NY and points in between. With the Way tree, he was able to put a structure in place quickly. He was into making money, after living in virtual poverty for years, saw his ship come in and was ready to move quickly. Thus, he was able to get the product rolling. Remember, most of us were kids, HQ had no control over our areas, and we were basically self-governing, with only Steve over us in the east, Jim in the West. Because we had no constraints, it grew massively. VP bided his time and waited a year or so (70-71), let things grow while he sat on his duff on the farm, until there were enough people in place, that he could clamp down, causing Heefner to walk, but by this time - that was ok, he now had other men who could take their place. I think, as long as VP appointed "leadership" was not in an area, it flourished. Once structure came in, the growth started slowing. I think, yes, God did want us to hear the Word. For us hippies in that point in time, and in that culture, with classes run by our peers, it was probably the only thing that would appeal to us. God called a segment of our generation, and even though most of us are not now in TWI, our love for God, Christ and his Word has influenced our friends, family and others. I see very few young people turning on to God today, in fact, on some discussion forums I frequent, I see a total hatred for God and religion, and they are open about it. I have to wonder, maybe our generation was the last one to really believe before the end times. I know there are great churches, youth groups, etc., but from where I am, I do not see really, any seeking from too many of the Gen X and Ys out there. I've digressed... So, from talking to people who worked in the Trunk, I think at one point TWI in the '70s-80 ran something like 10,000 people a year through the PFAL class. Out of those, they lost 2/3rds every year. The people enjoyed it, were blessed, but moved on with their lives, they did not stay. I think a total of maybe 100,000 took the class during the peak years. Which leaves roughly 30,000 people "standing." I was also told, out of that, only 1% went into the corps - which averages out to about 3,000 corps grads, which is about right. Who were those who hung in? I think many of us were from dysfunctional families and were looking for a loving family, some saw an opportunity for spiritual power, some just needed a place to chill after the hippie drugs and sex. Those who moved on were relatively well adjusted, healthy friends, family life, jobs, etc., they just did not feel the need to get involved. Now, if there has been no intermediate class, or advanced class, who really would have stayed after awhile? VP had it set so that, if you want to grow, take the next class, and the top class was the advanced class. Note, no one was allowed to share what was in it with someone who hadn't taken it. It kept us around and gave us a goal to pursue - everyone wants advanced spiritual knowledge, they have from the dawn of civilization, whether it be mystery religions, mysticism, inner sanctums of knowledge, etc. By the time you got to the advanced class, you were pretty much indoctrinated into TWI, it became a lifestyle. One of the great things about TWI was the vast network of believers. You found them by the green bumper sticker, no matter where you went. If you wanted to move to another part of the country, there was always a place to crash, people to feed you, while you got settled, and even maybe use their connections to get a job. TWI became a way of life. I think, if it had just been PFAL, many of us would have moved on. I think, if you look back, God tried to get you to move on. Whether it was through friends, family, teachers, people concerned. But, we would hear none of that. So, I think God finally made a way for us to leave without losing "face." You have the mass exodus of '86-87 after POP was read. I believe that was of God. Because the peer pressure was so intense to be a "doulos," a dog soldier, comitment, commitment, commitment, that God just made a way for all of us to go together. Before I left, I talked to new corps, the younger generation - late teens, early 20s, and said look, its time to go. They all said, hey, Craig's a great guy, we will support him and the ministry, etc. I realized they were where I was at one time. They would have to grow up to get the blinders off. Sure enough, 10, 12 years later you had the Allen lawsuit, that was the second open door, God gets the younger generation out - another mass exodus, maybe not en masse like we did it, but they went. I think God tried individually to get us out. Look back on your time there, there must have been times when you just wanted to walk, but we didn't. When people were sent to you to talk to you, but you listened and ignored them. People who weren't there don't realize the massive peer pressure for those in the Corps. People who were asked to leave even committed suicide, because the shame of letting down God, not being good enough, was too much. But, as Paul said, either way the Word is preached - we're still here, and that will count for something someday. So, PFAL taught me to read the Bible and have a close relationship with God. That was the good. That and the wonderful people I met. Simple answer to the question, I think is - VP had a marketing scheme for his classes that tantalized us with more spiritual "knowledge" (we were young and naive) that kept us coming back for more and he was able to market the classes all over the country by using us kids to do it. The other groups didn't have that. Of course, they didn't have an "absent" Christ either. I've rambled, I hope this makes sense.

No, I do not think any TWI kids can revive it. The movement in the late '60s-early 70s was a true revival of God, of which VP was able to grab onto a segment through its true leaders - men who were called of God to evangelize, pastor, teach, and undershepard the hundreds of thousands called out and added by God. A revival, like the other poster said (which I think is a good analogy) is like a roller coaster ride, once it gets going it doesn't stop - you hang on for the ride, which for many of us back then was thrilling. God was alive! We saw it, in the little things and the big things, and most of all, in our hearts. For something similar to TWI to happen again, you would need a true revival - a movement of God. And if it does happen again (I tend to think they are once in a century things - several generations are affected), I can guarantee you, it will not be led by anyone in TWI. TWI is dying. TWI has made a mockery of God's word. TWI are Pharisees who will only lead one away from Christ into the worship of the "Word." TWI's Christ is absent. No, God will not give TWI another chance, nor will anyone in TWI or their offspring be a leader of another revival, nor will God give TWI the fruits of another revival. TWI will not be allowed to destroy hearts and lives of God's kids ever again. It is drying up, and will continue to dry up. Its days are numbered, their offspring will eventually drift away. If these kids want to see the "good ole' days" live again, they must shake the dust of TWI off their feet and move on.

Great food for thought Revel - that answers my question about 4 horsemen. I notice, the 4 horsemen affect only 1/4 of the world - i.e., that around Jeruselem? I have other questions, I'llthink of them and ask you later. Thanks.

Boy, sounds like times have sure changed since I was in the WC. We had to hitch all over the place (LEAD, to H.Q. in Ohio, Gunnison, etc.). The only "plans" we ever made, was, stick out your thumb and get there. Now, that I'm older, when I travel, its - got the credit card? Some cash? Gas in the car? Mapquest driving directions? Go!

I remember when it was almost done, the 7th corps were in-residence, we all had to meet with VP there in the evening up in this big room and then have a slumber party. I hated slumber parties. Anyway, he went on and on about his heart, it was for the corps, for us to use, blah, blah, blah. That's why I was so surprised when it later went to the LCM & family and it was off grounds for us. Can you spell liar boys and girls?

I totally agree Oldies - I think our hearts were right, we loved God and wanted to serve him and TWI seemed the best way. I also believe it will count for something.

OK Oldies, I'll bite. When you refer to doing "great" things in life possibly to come, what exactly are you referring to? This life here on earth? If so, I think most of us are baby boomers, we've slowed down - what are you specificallly referring to? What are you thinking of that may "surprise" us? Or, are you referring to the gathering, when it will be awesome to meet face to face and dwell in a new heaven and earth, which to us earthbound, physical dimension beings, we cannot even begin to comprehend - I agree, that will be surprising. As of now, I am thankful for what God has given me and strive to be a blessing to those around me - if there's anything else God would have me do, I'm sure he'll let me know, but I do not see myself doing anything "great for God" as TWI said we would do.

LOL Catcup! Yes, our meals and weight training schedule - we did get majorly buff that year, did we not? Like you, I also had to deal with DM who would "rather die than quit an assignment" - as I thought to myself after that stupid remark - well, I guess being the b*** for VP does have its privileges, life is easy for one in that position at HQ, but since I rejected that offer, I almost think I'd rather die than deal with the psycho downstairs (our Auntie) - time to leave soon... The only reason I stayed another year at H.Q. in finance was so I could prove to myself, that I was not screwed up - they were. Luckily, I met some great kindred spirits there and pretty much spent no time at H.Q. other than my job. Dean Don stood up for me, I will always be thankful for that. He told Auntie Em to sit down and shut up at assignments when she started accusing me of - well, who knows. Anyway, all I can say is, I'm still standing!!!

I get exactly what you're saying Coolwaters. When one is young, they search, they try different things and roles in finding out who they are and what they want to be and do. TWI took many of us who were searching and told us that God had a plan for us, with Christ in us, we would do great things for God. In the WC, I always had "leadership" telling me, give up this, sell that, do this, why? Because God had "great things in store" for me, and others. With Christ in us, everyone from young leaf to WC had a purpose. As I grew older, I came to realize this was B.S. I had to ask myself, what does God really want from us? He wants our hearts. He wants an exchange, if we give him our lives, he will give us his - that's all he asks really. I know Paul tells us to be content with what we have and be thankful for it. This doesn't mean we can't have ambition, but if life, circumstances, education, background etc. mean you will never be "rich," "powerful," famous, etc., well, that's o.k. I also realized, the only people who can do "great" things in this world, are either military leaders, or very wealthy people, and politicians. The rest of us, have neither the resources, nor a great, almost sociopathic lust for power (which can allow a poor person, say a Hitler, Saddam, Stalin, etc. to go from poverty to great power, or, just to run for president), nor money to effect great "change" in the world. As I mused on this, driving into work one day, I was skipping channels and heard a preacher preaching - which never happens. But this morning, he asked his fellow Christians: Can you be happy if you are never rich, if you have a job, housing, a car - a regular life? If you never do a great thing for God, if you aren't "called" to a minstry, in other words, can you be happy and content being a regular person? That was very freeing for me, because I had been taught that if I wasn't doing "great" things for God, I was surely a failure. I realized that most Christians are average Joes! We are not of the world, therefore the world will never love us, live walking with God, do your best and he will walk with us in the midst. He was telling me it was ok to be "regular." That took a weight and condemnation of of me, which had been there courtesy of TWI. Tell your daughter, what does her heart say? Does she need to return to school? What is it, really, she would like to do? She's still young enough to make it happen. Maybe she needs to volunteer and help people less fortunate, she may regain a thankfulness for the life she does have. Give it to God and tell her to just live.

Catcup - LOL! It was an honor to serve with you as one of the "scum of the crik" elite in Auntie Em's dysfunctional bookstore that year. As being WC scum, well, I know you sure weren't. You and KL kept my sanity together that year. I have often wondered if that wasn't our sign to walk, then and there - I know I almost did. My theme song for that year is Elton John's "I'm Still Standing" - everytime I heard that, I'd think, I'm still here you M**F***er (meaning Aunti Em). They used to play it alot at H.Q. that summer. Even now when I hear it on the radio, that's the first thought I think, it takes me back. As for WC being scum - yes, some truly were and are, but the vast majority were just young kids who wanted to learn to be their best for God.

Excellent point Sprawled Out - it truly was the "ministry" VPW was concerned with, the "truth" was secondary. Everything that was done, at the root of it, was to build the ministry.

Wordwolf, I never knew VP said that before died. That shows me, a) the "law of believing" doesn't work, and it didn't work for VP either; and (ii) he was not all there - how could he, at the end of his life, wonder what he had done wrong? If he didn't get that adultry, fornication, etc. were not becoming a man of God - well, I'm just incredulous that he didn't "get" that he had done anything wrong. He thought he was a-ok, didn't he? I do not believe he was born again. An angel of light maybe.