Sunesis

You definitely have a point LZ. But, since they are not married, DM has kids, I think she'd put her family first. I think my point is, they owe allegiance to no one, and I think if DM ever got in RR's way or threatened her power, RR would turn. I wonder how it feels for DM to be under RR's authority now? Yes, they may be friends but the balance of power has changed.

Well, RR's what, in her 70s now? Or close to it? She will have health problems - they are unavoidable with old age. What's she going to do when her "believing" doesn't heal her? HQ didn't take care of Mrs. VP, I can't see DM taking care of RR in her old age. When reality sets in what its like taking care of an old folk (like my parent), I just can't see DM doing it. RR will be placed in a facility where they can take care of her. HQ folk will come and visit. I wonder who will get RR's house?

You know, it doesn't surprise me RR just stabs everyone on the back eventually. HP was one of her favorites, she ordained him, gave him a word of prophecy that made him smile (I was watching). He kissed her butt like no one else. Then she turns on him and he's demoted. Anyone who gets in her way - a nice stab in the back on the way out. Eventually, it will happen to everyone she is associated with. Even DM.

I was a WOW in his area when he got in the Word. I used to go to his play and jam on guitars and we'd listen to Roy Buchanan together. One night we went out, all the money he had could only get us a donut (seriously). He was broke, but a great musician. He was one of the sweetest, kindest guys I've ever met. I think the change came when he went in the corps and PL got her hooks into him, then at HQ and he fell in with RR and started climbing the heights in Way Productions. I remember one time on staff I was riding my motorcycle in New Knoxville and something went wrong with it. He stopped, we took it to his house and he fixed it. He had a wonderful, kind heart. He let power corrupt it. I agree, he turned into a pr**k. But, he's on the field now in the "real world." Many people come to their senses away from HQ, hopefully he will too. I'd love to see the "real" H again.

Yup, that was my WOW handbook. I thought it was kind of cute - but unrealistic. That's where I met you Johnny, and HP. You were a great guy (still are). I wonder whatever happened to all of us WOWs from Silver Spring, Bethesda and Wheaton. I made a lot of great friends on the field. The hip sub shop where I worked was owned by older hippies - yes, we sure did party! They had this huge communal house, I felt like I was back in NY in my hippie years, hanging with the cool, older hippies. I met quite a few musicians and did a lot of jamming. Tacoma Park was next door, it was a great area back then. Financially, at first my family did great because I held the pursestrings. I have always been very good with money. Then, some in my family got upset, because even though I was working the same hours, I was making more money, and had some to burn. We contributed to the family pot for food, expenses, rent, etc., but whatever was left over was yours. They got upset I had more leftover. This was my first lesson in how communism/socialism doesn't work. Some of them were quite jealous/its not fair/attitude. I told them, you don't have to stay working at a gas station, go get another job, they didn't. One guy, who had wanted to handle the finances in our family since the beginning kept needling the branch leader. Even though I was family coordinator, eventually that spring, the branch coordinator caved because he was a guy, and should have a chance. I knew it was a huge mistake. We went from having all bills paid on time, money for nights out, movies and fun, to bounced checks, bills not paid, electricity turned off, etc. I had to leave early for my in-residence corps work pre-ROA, but I guess it got pretty bad after I left. I was so glad when that year was over.

I really look forward to these posts Revvel. I have read a lot about the end days theology, but this makes it very simple to understand. Looking forward to the next installment!

Lonnie was the founder of the "Jesus Movement" or "Jesus Freaks." A wonderful young man. One who knew him told me he won hundreds of kids to Christ weekly/monthly. I am looking forward to seeing this movie. The original founders of this revival were Lonnie, and Mr. Wise, Martin, Doop and Heefner. Dopp and Heefner went with VP, while the other 3 didnt'. Either way, all true men of God, called to lead a revival to the lost hippie youth, these men led an entire generation to Christ. Some of them I have spoken to - as to me, they are historical figures. Some of the conversations have been profound.

Grand-daughter, I thank God you're out. Maybe you could share your story on the "My Story" section. I'd love to know how you got in, and how you found the strength to leave. I hope you are doing well now.

Grand-daughter - oh my!!! I must have missed something, I see you're new here. What group were you with? That schedule would kill anyone! I'm glad you're out.

Sorry I upset everyone. I was not meaning to insult anyone. I think sometimes, we get great threads going, then - here comes the poetry. Sometimes, I'd just like a regular discussion. I note hardly anyone posts in this section anymore.

Great post T-Bone. I have always thought God opened two doors to exit TWI so we wouldn't all lose "face" in front of our corps brothers and sisters. The first one was POP. After this was when all us hippies who had grown up and now were in our late 20s, and thirties all left together. It was like the Holy Spirit just whispered in everyone's heart at once - leave! We did. The other was the Allan lawsuit. It too opened the door for the younger generation, who thought us "old hippies" had become cop-outs. They made their exodus then. I agree, we can look at events, but the meltdown, I also believe was God's doing.

It seems to me, we have two lines of thought going here. Those who believe in God, Christ, and the existence of Lucifer - or Satan. Those who believe the Bible is a book of prophecy - past, present and future. Those who believe God is unfolding his perfect plan for restoration of things that were marred and corrupted, with a goal of restoration back to the perfection of pre Gen. 1:1. He has offered us the grace of being a new creation in the coming perfection. What seems like a long time, or that its taking a long time, is to God a drop in the bucket of eternity - its a blink of an eye. We also have those, who think this is all nice superstition, but perfection is to be found within ourselves. We have no need of a savior, because, its all within, the spark of the divine and the poetry of it. Its nice, its lovely, its flowy, flowery and pretty, we can be as gods. But, you still have a decision to make. Satan was humiliated for all angels and the universe to see in Gen 1:2. Whatever catastrophe he and his minions created on the earth - it was so terrible God had to destroy it. God then says to him, you're so great and powerful - fix it! Restore the earth, bring back the light - recreate it. He couldn't - what humiliation, what a loser - and all the angels now knew it. Now, God puts the earth back, and its given to this man - this puny man made out of clay? How dare God. So, he goes and gets it back from Adam. The Bible says the whole world lies in wickedness (it is Satan's realm). That word "Lies" is like a mother holds a child in her arms. Satan doesn't care about mankind in general, they're alreay his, he hates them, they're just cannon fodder for his destructive plans, they are nestled in his breast - so to speak. Satan cares only about those that are God's and Christs - or will be. You can find him in church. Or anywhere people are looking for God. Yes, some of us believe God has a plan. You of the flowery speech may think we're idiots - so be it.

Good points all, but I must take exception that those who are Christ's can be "damned" at his return for us and the clothing of our new body given to us by Christ. We have already been judged - and forgiven, by what Christ did for us. You and I as God's children will not be going through a "judgment." That is why it is so important that we not use this grace as a license to sin. Revelations - when the body of Christ appears in heaven at the 6th seal. John and the angel see the multitudes of every nation and tongue standing there in heaven - us. We have been washed, cleaned, covered, and our deserved judgment was paid for by Christ's death. There is nothing to suggest the gathered church in the 6th seal went through a judgment. Yes, there are rewards for standing in certain times and situations, as described in Churches in the beginning of Revelation. But, there is therefore now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ. Those brothers and sisters who christians so gleefully want to see "judged" and "get theirs" - I wonder about them, are they really born again, those who want it, do they really have a real relationship with Christ? I'm not talking book knowledge, which can make you think you've got a great relationship with him. I'm talking from the heart. Who knows, as Christ said, there are many mansions in his Father's house. We will know soon enough, I think.

Wordwolf, midst of the stones of fire = planets. Lucifer had dominion over all angels and the Universe - that includes planets. Note, many of the "gods" in ancient myths (actually, the fallen angels of Gen. 6) are all named after planets and stars. In order to manage and steward something, you must have free will to do so. As steward of the earth (which I believe is the "eden" planet of the universe), Lucifer must have had the free will to steward it. If a farmer has a manager for his farm, but won't let the person run it, what good is that? In the beginning, you had one will - God's - perfect harmony and perfection. With Lucifer's fall, you now have two wills running the universe and clashing. Lucifer's whole goal has been to reacquire his dominion - and God's throne - which means a clash, hatred for God's newly created man, attempts to hybredize the gene pool so the Savior could not appear (Gen. 6), killing children under 3, etc. The reason he is "evil" is because his will is in direct contradiction with God's. His will is to overthrow God, his will is to destroy mankind. Now that he knows he has lost and Christ sits in his stead that he once had, and is doomed to eternal destruction, his goal is to take as many with him as he can. Just as we are children of the material, 5 senses realm, I have no problem with spiritual creations living in a spiritual realm, or dimension.

Its a tough one and one I've thought about over the years. Here's kind of what I've come up with - for me. I know that those who will enter into heaven must be a new creation. The coming new Heaven and earth is home to the new creation (we know not know what we shall be, but it shall be revealed, as our true life is currently hid in Christ, and our true life shall be revealed at his return), which is what we become when we are born again. That is why it is grace that we will be able to be with and in God and in his perfection. God loves all mankind and sent his Son to offer the invitation to come, enter into his love, perfection, perfect love and the heavens with him eternally - to enter into his coming kingdom. Those who are nice and wonderful and do good works, of which there are many, but who consciously reject Christ and his offer to be an inhabitant of the coming new earth and heaven and to abide with him, will receive the desire of their hearts - which is, to not be with him. God cannot override someone's will and make him accept the invitation. Maybe yes, to our sense knowledge on this material plane, it does not seem fair, but it is, because one has free will to decide - to accept or reject. Works and niceness have nothing to do with our entrance into God. No man can ever be holy enough to stand in God's presence by his works. Ever. That is why Christ did it for us and brings us with him into heaven. Christ is our entrance. That does not mean, as a Christian we don't do good works ourselves. On the contrary, because we have this grace, mercy and an entrance made for us into God's Kingdom, we should do all in our power to make people around us blessed - which includes good works. Christ stands at the door of each person and knocks. If one answers and opens it and invites him in, he becomes a new creation. Note, Christ does not kick the door down and demand entrance, it is the individual who must invite him in. If your friend has heard about Christ, and the salvation that is available from the wrath to come and the invitation to dwell with God through eternity as a new creation, that is his choice. it may sadden you he does not want to accept this invitation. Thus, it seems, unfair. But it is not, it is his choice. Christ knocked, he has refused him entrance. Our planet and universe, pre-Gen. 1.1, was perfect. It became ruined. God is in the process of restoration - legally - back to that perfection. We on earth are a fallen race - separated from God. We are as guests in someone's house, while the owner has stepped out for awhile, and we have trashed it. The coming wrath (of which we are saved from) will be the cleaning and restoration. That's why it is grace we have been invited back, to be fully connected and restored as a new creation. I also know, those who have not heard of Christ, shall be judged on their hearts and works. Hope this makes sense!

Danny - LOL!!! I love the new, future version of Genesis! Anyway, I used to be a devout universalist - all would be saved without exception. But I am not anymore. Yes, Christ came to deliver mankind, but not all have chosen to be redeemed. I read other boards, some boards where people rail against God. Like it or not, there are people who absolutely hate God and Christ and the vileness that they speak of him with - well, it wasn't like this years ago. Anyway, not all humans will be saved. The holy spirit was sent into the world to convict the world of sin. I believe every human being, at some point or another is convicted and has to make a choice, or, if they are in a position to never hear of Christ, at least think deeply about God. Even Christ, when he prayed, said he did not pray for the world - but those that were given him. In order for God to "save" angels, he would have to recreate their nature. But, it was their choice to not follow him, but Satan. In order for God to "save" them - he would have to overpower them and go against their free will. He will not do that - it is not just.

Ah... Thanks Alfakat!

Hi Danny. Going back to your statement. I do not think Satan and those who sinned will be redeemed. I believe a nature corrupted cannot be rehabilitated. yes, maybe they could be forgiven and allowed entrance into God's perfection, and yes, maybe they could be on their best behavior - for awhile - but eventually, the true nature must come out. God will not allow corruption to taint his glory or heaven again. Satan did it once and it took the creation of mankind and a savior to bring about the restoration of the creation back to its perfection before Gen. 1:1 - of which the process is still continuing. Some things and people are irredeemable - but - its not God being unfair, as it was the being's choice to do so. I believe God will give them their own place, apart from him, where they can rail against, and hate God forever. This is called the lake of fire. Is it a literal fire? I don't know. I could be a symbol for a place where words can't describe. To me, a place without God and his light and love - that's unimaginable and indescribable. God cannot kill or destroy his creations - he is the God of the living not the dead. They will simply get their wish - to be without God for eternity. As for the nice little quotes by Greg - to believe there is no evil in people is to be extremely naive. Was it not Christ who told us to be wise as serpents, yet harmless as doves?

Thanks again for another great post Revvel. I read recently that satellite photos have shown the outlines of the original temple at Jeruselem. Where the Muslims have their mosque, supposedly on top of the temple, is in reality, the outer court - the part "trampled by the Gentiles." The Mosque is not on top, but outside of it. The antichrist - the "peacemaker" will give the Jews permission to rebuild. I had always wondered how they were going to remove the mosque to rebuild. But now that its known that the mosque is built outside the true temple location, its pretty obvious that the temple will be built adjacent to the mosque. Once it is rebuilt, it will have outer courtyards. It is there the Jews will come in one day and see the abomination set up there - their sign to head for the hills. I wonder if they will know to do that. My question to you is, how long is a generation? If we go by the 40 year definition, than these things would have started in 1988, 40 years from when Israel became a nation. But some are saying is was the 7 day war in '67 that solidified Israel's state, thus, bringing us to 2007. What's your take on the length of a generation?

Sprawled Out, I should have defined it better. Yes, critters are wonderful, awesome creations. I'm talking about agencies with free will, and the ability to apprehend God and to choose. These creations Angels, Adam and Christ were charged with stewarding God's creation. In order to steward and care for, you must be given free will to accomplish the job. If I own a farm and it needs care, I must allow the manager freedom to best manage it. The Angels with Lucifer as their head had it. But Lucifer thought he could do what God did - i.e., create, better than God could. He lost it. Adam had it. His charge was to rule this jewel of a planet together with God, and God could dwell with mankind. He lost it. Christ came to redeem, and takes Lucifer's spot ruling now and in the future - he succeeded. We do not know what we shall be as of yet, but someday shall know. So, I'm talking about those created with free will to carry out a charge. Doggies and whales, sadly, don't have it. But we do love them! I suspect, before the "dread" of man fell on them after the flood, they were to serve, in the sense of serving the planet by each fulfilling their roles in the ecology, thus, serving man.

Hi Evan. I'm thinking of the scripture in Romans - who shall deliver us from this dead body? (sin nature)... there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. I'm at work so I don't have my bible with me. Years ago, it hit me - like a lightening bolt, that since we are covered and washed by Christ's blood, and, at this time since it is not revealed to us what we shall be when we enter into our perfection as a new creation - a son of God - there is still now, no condemnation to us for having our old man nature. Or for being a fallen race. The only condemnation comes when one rejects the one who has come to bring us to God as a new eternal creation. Just as, if I wanted my cat to act more like my dog, no matter how hard kitty tries - he can't. In the same way, we can't. Our nature is fallen. Yet, we are not condemned for this, in fact, to any who asks, eternal life and the promise of being a new creation is given. That is Grace. I find it amazing how (as far as we know), God has created (not made - but created - totally new) only 3 types of beings, with a fourth to come: Angels, Adam, and Christ. And now, presently the universe and all of creation groans waiting for the revelation of - the sons of God. The universe waits for us. We are to be a new creation - the 4th creation.

Separation from God is mankind's sin. Mankind is a fallen race. Adam's sin was in eating of the tree of knowledge, i.e., a different knowledge than Gods. He could take of this knowledge that was offered and looked soooo much better, or he could freely receive that which God freely gave. His choice: to take illegitimately, or to receive legitimately. Only reunification with God via Christ enables us to enter into God. Man is fallen - he can never be holy or clean enough to enter into God. Thus, the need for the free gift of life Christ came to offer. "Sin" does not mean being a "bad" person or doing bad things - that is fallen man's nature, he cannot change. We are told there is no condemnation for having this sin nature. The sin is in staying separated and fallen willfully. Mankind's sin is separation from God.

Separation from God.

Excie, I think its a couple of choices. One choice could be, child molesters, predators, etc., via porno (which VP did like), have many of the same, standard lines. VP heard it from someone else who was into what he was. Just like for women, there are very few new, "original" pickup lines. We've heard them all. Or, if you still believe in spiritual evil, they had the same spirit, thus, the same lines are commonly used.

Just awesome Revvel. Lot's to think about and study. The Bible truly is a book of prophecy. I appreciate your shareing, please continue to do so, even if others disagree.