Sunesis

The imagery of KAG as a flaming minister with the sword coming out of her mouth, and thus compared to Christ as he is described in Revelation when he returns - well, I think that's going just a bit too far - in fact, its insane. Thus, if you disagree with M & KA, you have gone against God and his son. I guess she truly has become like a "god." It seems to me God has pulled the plug on this ministry. The sad thing is, to them, this seems normal - another crisis - its the adversary attacking us. The strife, false prophets, the drama, the inane longwinded letters - I feel like I'm watching a bunch of 8th graders trying to figure out what to do. They will never figure it out because Christ is not their head. They are running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Its over.

Excellent post Clearwaters - really, I loved it. I read a great book once on dreams from a Christian point of view. The Bible basically divides them into visions (what you and I would consider lucid) which is not a dream, something else, a lucid state. The other categories are "big" dreams and "little" dreams. There are times, when in a dream, God does obviously talk to you and show you something - I believe this is for the individual. This is a "big dream." The rest of our dreams, regular "little" dreams, are basically products of the mind. For more explanation, I think Karl Jung had it correct, in his studies of dreams, which are the regular every day, little dreams. They do have a purpose, a reflection of yourself by your unconscious to your conscious. They reveal yourself to you, in ways, when your conscious mind filter is on during the day, you do not realize. Their purpose is to bring wholeness. I like the above poster's point also. As Christians today, we have Holy Spirit, not just upon, but literally, in us. Thus, there is not really the need today for visions, big dreams, etc. like you see on the O.T. The Bible does say, though, in the last days your children shall see visions, dream dreams, etc. Once the "restrainer" (i.e., the Holy Spirit) is taken "out of the way" - or back to whence it came, when Christ promised the comforter and sent it here on a mission, and once the church is gone, and there is no more Comforter in the role it played during the grace administration, then, in those last days, thus you will have the need for visions and dreams again, as it was in the O.T. Just my 2 cents. I may be quite wrong. But its great food for thought.

From my perspective, after being out for almost two decades now, this just all seems like like pointless drama - don't these offshoot leaders ever get tired of this? what a waste of time and life. These little groups are so insignificant. I am so sorry for the people hurt by this. VPW ordained these men. By law, those who left TWI years ago and were no longer affiliated with TWI could not retain their "Reverend" title. But they still use them anyway. Why, when I saw so few of these men with "gift" ministries in TWI, do they feel they need to go off and start their own offshoots? Sure, JAL had a gift of gab, and thought he was funny. But so are a lot of other people. I think if someone really felt called of God to serve, they'd attend seminary, get credentialled, and work within a church with real boards, psychological evaluations, open meetings, etc. as some I know have done. For some reason, TWI fostered this MOG mentality, gotta follow someone. Or if someone was a MOG, well, they now have to take the package, purify it, make it better and sell it. What gives these people the right with no real theological educations the right to even do this? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. CES was founded on shaky theology, and will never recover from this. Lots and lots of head knowledge, but no heart for Christ, oh sure, lip service, like all of TWI was. I think, on this thread, so many who have left these groups and have moved on talk about Christ - because he has become living and real to them after they got rid of the rules, guidance, packages, etc. and were humble enough to let God lead and teach them. Following a MOG will not get you any closer to Christ. You have the Holy Spirit, let him work in your hearts. Nothing more to see, time to move on. I think the only one with a truly weeping heart in this situation is Christ.

Ckm, who made you God? Who made you judge, jury and executioner? Do you know HCW? He gave you the respect and dignity of sharing his heart and life and you s.... all over him. How dare you mock him? I hope HCW never throws his pearls before swine again so you can trample them. Do you feel like a big man now? You say he failed You say he's dumb (in nice words of course), he couldn't figure it out You say he's so dumb he still can't figure it out to this day You say he's going to commit suicide (with joy and glee on your part) You say he's a waste of time and energy You say you would never mentor him Nice accusations there. Who are you really working for? Your hatred and arrogance are shameful. Who do you think you are? Did you say you were a Christian?

I don't think we're being critical or judgmental - we're just appalled. For those who have been out of a controlling religious environment for years now, when we look at see what has gone on with CES - it just seems insane. To those still in, I guess this is just another normal everyday thing, or something that, well, if we make a change, all will be better and we can continue on. But from an outsider's perspective, one who has been away from cults and free from their bondage, it is very understandable - our perspective. The evil hatred of the "Prophetic Council" that was manifested against an individual, how much different, really, when it comes right down to it, is it different than the little group that ran the inquisition, the Salem accusations, etc. Same spirit, same little groups, different times. I truly believe TWI did not teach a personal relationship with Christ. Thus, its leaders had no knowledge of Christ. Remember, we are his body, we are supposed to be and live in intimate communion with him. Its not about studying the "Word" constantly and loading up with head knowledge. It is about having communion with Christ and allowing him to unfold the Word to you. These leaders never knew Christ in TWI, as many of us did not. The "Word" took the place of the ABSENT Christ. God, in his grace and mercy has allowed many of us who have left to have that relationship, via the Holy Spirit working in our hearts. All the research in the world will not fix this situation because this church in particular has become disconnected from the head - Christ. As Christ says to the churches today - wake up! It will never get better. Why do you feel the need to follow men, dreamers, prophets, those who feel a personal relationship with God and Christ does not offer enough and therefore must run after the dreamers for more? Why do these people feel they are prophets, apostles, etc. (of course, in TWI, Prophet was the most "coveted" ministry one could have). Why do they feel they must set themselves up as "leaders." I think Christ has said depart from me. There is a reason sudden calamity has fallen upon this organization. You can sit here and blame it on us, on people, on the devil, maybe its just God's way of getting people the heck out of a idolitrous situation where Christ is absent. This isn't being judgmental, this is just good old common sense, or "prudence," as the Bible also exhorts us to use. You can say we're judgmental, but truly, these are not "Godly fruits." Yes, we shall judge angels, and there's no reason, if something is so obviously screwed up, we cannot comment on it.

They should just let that organization die and be done with it. No good can come from it anymore. There's nothing to save. As I explained to someone, the word Apostasy comes to mind. In the latter times, many will leave Christ and the doctrine, and with itching ears, go after a lot of other crap. Look at the running after Momentus. I believe these "personal prophecies" opened the door to the evil we've seen now. I am starting to believe, just as in churches today, so too in TWI, there were quite a few who were not born again. No born again Christian could have stood by and let this go on. The fact that there needed to be a secret prophecy council - kinda reminds me of, oh, I don't know - the illuminati - these little, oh so spiritual people in their nice little inner circle. We see satan's ministers acting as religious, spiritual men in so many Christian churches. Ask yourself, where is your pastor leading you? Towards Christ and his kingdom to come, and us as new creations, thus, treat each other kindly down here? Or are you looking for devil spirits behind every rock and judging? Are you manifesting the love of God and building up or the works of the devil and tearing down? I liked Richncripy's mind pic - children smearing s**t on each other. Except the s**t are truly evil works - they are not of God. God doesn't like his kids throwing this and smearing each other with works of evil. I think of the verse, Lord, didn't we do this and that, etc. IN YOUR NAME???? and he says depart from me, I never knew you. Coolwaters had it right - they have no, none whatsoever, relationship with Christ. Any Christian, any true child of God would be sickened by what they have done. As for these dreams, yes, I have read every work of Karl Jung's, many of Freud, etc. But Jung in his exhaustive study of dreams had one thing totally correct: dreams are your mind telling you what is going on in your life under the surface. People, animals, and things in your dreams are representations of certain aspects of your own personal life. I.e., say I dream of a bully I once knew - what aspect of ME is that representing? Or there's a monster chasing me - what in my life needs to change? Anxiety manifested as a monster. That's just super simple examples. For KA to be taking these symbols - these symbolic representations - of HERSELF in her dreams, these aspects of her self, and projecting them onto this woman, and smearing others with her personal s*it and projections is unconscionable. This is disgusting. They need to come to Christ. Sorry for rant - I'm not crazy, just still poed about what they have done. I wonder how many others they have done this to. Let this group just wither and die.

Am I the only one who almost got physically nauseaus reading Elizabeth's letter? The demonic accusations this woman has had to endure under the guise of "prophecy." The - ok, I'll say it, though I hate to - the "devlishness" of the prophetic council - truly, satan's ministers have been working overtime masquerading as ministers of light. The hate, creulty and condemnation they have driven into this woman's life to the point of contemplating ending it - this is not of God. I don't care how "strong" JAL is in the "word" - anyone can memorize verses and chapters, but to allow anyone to gossip and accuse one's wife like that is disgusting and shameful in my book. The sad thing is, I used to be great friends with KA - she did some loving wonderful things for me in residence. As of this point, she is not God's instrument. Did not anyone else get sick readings these prophecies that sound like they came from the pit of hell? The hatred and animosity towards this woman Elizabeth. Sure, it takes two to tango, but no one deserves what has been heaped upon her by the Accuser. May she wipe the dust off her feet and move on, and may these people have their eyes enlightened and fall on their knees and beg God forgiveness for the shame, hurt and evil they have done. Lest he say... Depart from me, I never knew you.

Sons of Sunesis.... I like it!

So CM, we're all the devil now, and you're staring us down? Thus, we're all possessed? You know all of us individually, and you can say without reservation collectively, we are the devil. [Name calling edited out] I think you need to take the beam out of your own eye first. Until you get a little more humility and understanding of people with out seeing devils everywhere, or seeing the devil in any opinion you happen to disagree with, God cannot get through to you. You sound a little puffed up. Read the rest of that section and apply it. I'm sure you've gained a lot of book knowledge, mental assent, but without love, you are nothing.

PM sent.

That is a wonderful testimony to your father. You should show him what you wrote. The strength it must have taken not cave into the pressure his family must have put on him and face being left out of the family's "inner circle" of "likeminded" believers. You have a great dad there!

Awesome post Dot - that was one of the best summations of the inner circle I've read in a long time. Thanks for sharing that.

Motherof2, the behavior you mentioned is so very, very typical of TWI. You must realize, TWI is a cult. Also realize, you are never, ever, going to change them or talk them out of anything. Of course you are born again - but to them, anyone outside of the "household" is suspect. They believe, truly, they are the only ones "really" walking with God. Sadly, they do not know Christ. Way people are taught that the "Word" takes the place of the "absent" Christ. Thus, they worship the "Word" and pick it and nitpick it to pieces. They are puffed up with knowledge, yet, have no love (See I. Cor. 13). When you are with them, don't even try to bring up the Bible, Christ, etc. with them unless they ask. And then, are they asking because they truly want to know, or do they really want to argue? The only thing you can really do is pray for them for God to open their eyes. Most of us, even the most loyal and hardheaded got out because God worked in our hearts. Maybe some things had happened and there were doubts forming, whatever, it is a spiritual move of God. Keep them in your prayers. Your walk and joyfulness in Christ is a witness. If one ever starts having doubts, they'll know who they can talk to. Until then, I really would make any discussions with them re the Bible and Christianity off limits, because, for now, to them you are "possessed" or allowing "evil spirits" into your life. Don't be mad about this, have compassion, they live in a narrow box and cannot see out. God will break the chains that bind them when and if they desire to get out. Hope this helps.

I find it interesting VP saw children as no more than an animal - a dog. A man who has no mercy on his beast has no heart - proverbs (paraphased becasue I don't have my bible with me). VP had no heart. Seeing people as things to be used, equating children with animals, women are only good for sex (deep misogony) and then to be discarded after he vanquishes them and goes off on the hunt after the next conquest, what you see is a sociopathic personality. The fact VP had no problem beating animals, advising the same for kids - shows a sick dominant will - a huge ego, that his will must be obeyed no matter what.

Allan, either, when they left their habitation behind and came to earth to do their destruction of the Adamic line so the Savior could not come, I don't know, maybe they could have had sex, just as they could eat, drink, etc., or maybe, since they were with God and knew many secrets of creation to them, playing with and manipulating DNA was easy. I just read a fascinating article in National Geographic how in DNA, there are certain ampt genes that control others genes below it. It can tell something to grow feathers, or a horn, or beak - basically whatever you want. We are told when these things came to earth, they taught mankind knowledge. I think that was the attraction when Satan in his magnificent glory offered Adam and Eve this incredible (to them) knowledge. I really can't answer the question Allan of exactly how they did it. There have been many discoveries over the last centures, and recently in the US of giant skeletons - bones 12-13 feet tall. They disappear into museaums, never to be seen again (i.e., the Smithsonian), because it would throw human history in a tailspin. I find it interesting that almost every culture in the world, has their story about the gods who came and mated with women and created offspring. All the pyramids and giant buildings all over the world, were made to the glory and worship of their Gods, I'm almost starting to think after the 2nd, small irruption, they went and staked out certain areas. If you read about the serpent headed god worshipped by the Inca, Maya, they are similar to other gods around the world. The worship always included blood, sacrifice, death and amazing cruelty. Columbus was welcomed into the new world because they thought it was their god returning. Interesting stuff. I highly recommend Patrick Heron's book, which you can find on Amazon, he gives a good overview.

Yes, I think the House of Acts was where it started. Over time, as these groups grew, the movement went up north and to Canada. Martin's group, I think, and the one Lonnie stayed with became the Vineyard, which is still going strong and growing today, after all these years. There was a lady associated with them who went to Oregon or Washington and did great things there. I do find it interesting that those in that early meeting with VP in SF, when he got all 5 of the "leaders" of this movement together, Martin, Wise, Frisbee, Doop and Heefner, and played the class for them, that Jim Doop told me after session 2 or 3, Martin, Wise, and Frisbee got up and said, no thanks, we will not affiliate with you, we will continue to do what we have been doing and left. Heefner and Doop went with VP. The rest is history. TWI is dying, Vineyard and others are thriving. Jim Doop also wrote his own manuscript, which was never published. I would love to have read that.

I think its interesting that many people take the Bible literally, take other writings from ancient times literally (i.e., Epic of Gilgamesh, Egyptian Book of the Dead, writings on temple walls, egyptian, babylon, sumaria, etc.) - everything is taken literally. Except, when it comes to the pictures of the "gods" - fallen angels and nephilim (their offspring). All of a sudden, those are supposed to be taken figuratively. I think, those things were so amazing, that people did take the time to portray them. They also took the time to portray the hybred animals. There is a reason, when the fallen angels were placed in chains, and the offspring were destroyed by the flood, that God also made a point of destroying the animals. If you read the account of the animals going into the ark, it was God who called them. God picked which animals were still "pure" so to speak. The corruption was not just humans, but animals. Every time you read of destruction, or a cleansing, in the Bible, it is always because of what Satan and his fallen angels have corrupted. There are four of them, 3 have happened and one is future. 1. Gen. 1:1 - earth is flooded, God has to recreate because of Satan's fall and corruption. Remember, the earth was the "jewel" of the Universe, all the "sons of God" (angels) shouted for joy when it was made. It was Satan's to steward, watch over and cultivate. Whatever it was he did, it must have been monumental. 2. Gen. 6 - Noah warned flood coming to destroy mankind and animals as a result of Satan and his fallen angels once again trying to corrupt and defeat God's plan for the promised Redeemer. 3. Sodom & Gomorrah - destroyed because they went after "strange" flesh (genetically strange). 4. Coming destruction of the earth in fire - the wrath - this will be when the "tares" are winnowed from the wheat. This is when the comforter, Holy Spirit which Christ sent into the world, and the Church are removed. There is no more check on evil - Satan and his angels thrown out of heaven, cast down to earth, it is as the days of Noah again. Evil runs rampant. This is "man's day" - but, the earth is the Lord's. Its like a house. The house has been trashed. It will be cleaned out and restored to perfection. My point is, these 4 great judgments were/are the result of something Satan and his angels have pulled off and is such an abomination to God (because he did not create this), that it must be destroyed. Roy, I will ask, if this is referring to the Sethites marrying the Cainites, as you believe, why were these regular humans giving birth to monstrosities? I used to think as you. But take the time to fully read this article, and tell me what you think, especially the end. http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/110/

Roy, I will find you the pic of the mouse with the Human Ear growing on its back, done with a mixture of human and mice genes. Humans and animals can be intertwined. Here you go: Mouse with ear: http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/mouse-ear.jpg Here's two mice with them: http://www.danwei.org/images/mouse_ear.jpg How about a glow in the dark rabbit? http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0009JRF...SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg There are many fun things we'll be able to do with genetics! We're in the baby stages, the fallen angels were way ahead of us, but I'm sure we'll catch up.

There are many appearances of angels in the Bible. They appear as men, they converse, they eat and enjoy a good meal, etc. If you read about the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, it was because the people wanted to go after "strange" flesh. Fallen angels are "strange" flesh. I believe their area still had fallen angelic beings visit. They knew that what could be done with an angel - strange flesh - was way beyond anything humans could do, thus, the rush to get to the angels - probably thinking they were fallen. The point is, they knew they were angels, not mere men, and they knew they could have sexual relations with them. Also, I believe the fallen angels were experts at genetic manipulation - remember, they were there with God in the beginning and were once holy creatures. This why, when Satan offered mankind "knowledge" in the Garden, God was angry, what should not be, was revealed to men. We see examples of genetic manipulation today in glow in the dark rabbits, mice with human ears growing out of them, etc. We will soon see hybred animals - it will be as in the days of Noah. I wonder if when God says that when "knowledge is increased" he is talking about the ultimate human knowledge - cloning and playing with and mutating genes - to create unnatural abominations. This is what the fallen angels were doing way back then, and now, man is finding with his increase in knowledge, he can do it to. Patricks book was excellent.

Hi LZ. From what I have read about him, he was pretty much the first one to the youth - his peers. I agree there were other missions springing up, mostly run by adults (or anyone over 30 who was not to be trusted). Lonnie was out on the beach coming down from an acid trip when he got a message/vision he was to preach and win people to Christ. Which is immediately what he started doing. I agree, others, older folks were establishing little places, and he hooked up with Martin, but none of them won the kids like he did. Jim Dopp told me the story, of how Lonnie lived in a little basement room in the house they were living in. To get to Lonnie's room, you had to come in the front door, go straight through the living room and down the stairs to the basement. Jim said you'd be sitting in the living room and a steady stream of kids would come in all night. Lonnie would pack the kids in his little bedroom, they would just keep coming while the "adults" stayed upstairs. At the end of the evening Lonnie would come up and say "150 born again tonight!" or "38 born again tonight!" and then go back downstairs. Jim laughed about it, this went on every night as long as they had that house. Those were just the evenings. I'm glad I got to talk to Jim about Lonnie. Jim had nothing but total respect and affection for him.

Thanks Bliss, glad someone thinks I'm not crazy :) ! Actually, I stumbled across this a couple of years ago too. Many Christians have started to figure this out in the last decade or so. When you understand what was going on, it is a huge missing piece of the Bible "puzzle" so to speak. Yet, this was all common knowledge to the OT people and early Christians, and I believe its something God wants us to understand now. Also, in Gen 6 when it says these being irrupted after the flood, you see Israel finds them dwelling in Canaan - the land God had promised to the Israelites - gee, what a coincidence. When Moses sent Joshua and his men to spy out the land, they reported the Nephilim - Giants - living there (the offspring of the fallen angels, literally "fallen ones" in hebrew). If you read the geneology in the OT about the tribes, God specifically in the OT tells us exactly which tribes were descended from the Nephilim - these are the tribes Israel is told specifically to wipe out because they are, the only word I can think of is, hybreds - half human, half other worldly. This is why Israel is told specifically never to mingle with them and to wipe them and their animals out. These were the men of old, men of renown, heros of Greek and other mythology. I believe many of them traveled all over the world and ruled over Inca, Mayan, and whoever. Their "gods" are all very similar - and utterly evil. I think of Kokopeil listed as one of the Gods in, I think Babylon, and see a great similarity to Kokopeli who led the Hopi nation. These beings are imprinted everywhere all over the earth for those who want to check it out. Thus, God is not a "genocidal" monster of the OT, he gave Israel a divine mission to wipe out the much smaller irruption of these beings. Every tribe they wiped out was a Nephilim tribe. At one point, Israel did mingle with them and the prophet laments. I believe cannibals like Dahmer, people who love to kill, like a Bundy or Gacy, or Stalin are modern day Nephilim - genetic throwbacks. As the head of the FBI Behavioural unit once said, the only way he can describe these people is like, an alien inhabiting a human body. There is something not human about them. Humans just cannot comprehend them. Roy, Christ said, in the end days, when his disciples asked for a sign of what they would be like, Christ said, it would be like as in the days of Noah. When you realize what was really happening, and how inhuman the times were, it makes sense that when satan and his angels are cast out of heaven for good (Revelation), these same beings will be manifest again, and there will be drinking and giving in marriage (i.e., them taking whom ever they want). It will again be as the days of Noah.

Well, on this one Roy, we're just going to have to agree to disagree! :) Bless you too Roy.

Hi Roy. I believe the "sons of God" (fallen angels) left their habitation - the spirit realm and came to earth. They are fallen angels. They are now the ones kept in chains until judgment who Jesus went and preached to. They are the ones who tried to corrupt mankind so the Savior could not appear and Satan would always have dominion over the earth. That's why Jesus appeared to them - sorry boys, I'm here, you plan failed. Noah was "perfect" in his generation. That word "perfect," means, genetically perfect. He wasn't saved because he was such a wonderful guy, but because him and his family were the last of humankind that were not genetically corrupted by these beings - they were the last "true" descendants of Adam. The Seth argument is for those who can't believe fallen angels can manipulate DNA - as mankind is doing now. Pictures of these beings (fallen angels), when they ruled over people and told people they were gods, and people worshipped them, are all over the place, from ancient sumerian and babylon - pre flood, and the post flood irruption. Note how small humans, lions are - they are tiny beside these beings. Look carefully at some of these sculptures. Look here for some pre-flood pics: http://www.stevequayle.com/GG.Images/neil_freer.jpg http://www.stevequayle.com/GG.Images/6.fingers.jpg http://www.stevequayle.com/GG.Images/winged.jpg Here's some great pictures of Sumerian pre-flood Gods: http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html These are not just man's "imagination" - these were/are real beings. There are more pictures of them all over the place, including hybred animals, etc. There is a reason a flood was needed and these beings must be kept in chains - what they did was just evil. Read all of Enoch - he is quoted all over the Bible. I think, in these last days, there is a reason that the book of Enoch was kept hidden until recently. Both the Jewish leaders (who were of their father the devil) and the Catholic popes did their best to make sure the book of Enoch was totally destroyed. Can't have God's people figuring out what's really going on now, can we? Who do you think built the giant monuments, pyramids, and easily moved 100-500 TON - yes, that's 500 TON blocks all over the place? Even our modern equipment can't lift that much weight. You have the bronze age, and iron age, and a mercedes sitting there, quite out of place, in the middle of these ages. Wouldn't want God's people to figure out what's really going on, would we now?

You got that right Trust and Obey. When I was on staff at H.Q., I did make noises about money, I was getting raises every 3 or 4 months or so. Me and C*r*L Fr**b*rN were the two highest paid single women on staff, and good buddies. A ninth corps woman was a distant third. I know this because I worked in payroll :) I was nothing special, a little worker bee, but, for some reason J. FW liked me and always got them pushed through. When I left I told a couple of my 7th corps female buddies who were just coming on staff, what to ask for, they were amazed I was getting that much. But CF - she had asked for something like $500 a pay period (this was '82 or 83 mind you). When she got her first check, she went back and said, no, not net, I mean gross - I want $500 gross. She got it - she was the top. I really believe, if you were friends with J.FW and HA and they both liked you, they were generous. At TWI, so much of it really was, who you knew. And, oh yes, about those perks. We were always getting notes from people like, DM, saying: I am going shopping tomorrow, please have $500 ready for me. All the nice clothes, toys, motorcyles, cowboy hats and boots - depending what the fad was at the time, never came out of their paychecks. Just send a note to Finance telling how much you wanted and it was waiting for you.

Good talking to you LZ. Yes, because of fondness, I'm sure DM will make time once a week/bi-monthly, to go visit RR in the extended care facility. You're right, who can tell?