Sunesis

Here's the way I understand it. All men have a soul. Unfortunately, when Adam fell, his soul, which was perfect, became, marred, so to speak. Its like someone defaced the masterpiece the Mona Lisa. That's why mankind is enmity with God, or dead in sin. It does not mean, they are a horrible person. Their soul is defaced, warped, marred. When one is born again (since God requires absolute holiness to stand in his presence in heaven and live in a different dimension, heavenly, so to speak), we receive holy spirit. Before it was available to have holy spirit, those who believed in God, it was counted unto them for righteousness. The soul is also regenerated, healed, unmarred, or untwisted so to speak. We also know, from the Word, that God does not kill. One who rejected God, or his son, await the judgment in sheol, the grave. See Jesus and Lazarus and the rich man. Souls do have a consciousness. It is amazing the amount of information regarding this in the Word. TWI was wrong about the doctrine of "soul sleep." When we die, those born again, are with the Lord. They are clothed in white until they receive their new spiritual bodies. I would suggest reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. He had quite a good grasp of what we are now, and are to become.

All that ever came before him? I think it means every Baal worshipper, sun god, moon god, Apollo, Abbadon, Baal, etc., every "god" that was worshipped, every false religion that originated in Babylon (figurative) which shall be destroyed (Jezebel and Babylon) at the end. Israel was chosen (or Abraham, as its father) because, while surrounded by idol worship, false religions, whatever the world was worshipping at that time, Abraham did not. He believed, and worshipped the one true God, the "I Am", him that inhabits eternity. Any religion that promises you can be as gods, or can enter into God's presence by your own "holiness," whether by religious ritual, following a leader, or an idol, the law, without the need of a saviour, I guess includes anything from Cain to present day. Only Christ made us holy enough to enter into God - the holy of holies. Only Christ will give us the new, celestial bodies needed to inhabit this new heaven - no other that came before him - nor after.

Jerry, Dan, good points. I should have clarified. I too believe it is other "ministers" who lead people away from the narrow gate. It is not the devil himself doing this, but those ministers, angels of light, posing as God's minister, whether in Christianity or any other religion, who lead people away from Christ. Excath - to answer your question, yes. If you want, I can recommend several good books to you, available on Amazon. I believe, in these last days, God is revealing to people the reality of what is to come. For me, I was uneducated and did not really know what the Word said regarding the topic. Its amazing what's in there.

I believe this "more abundant" life Jesus is offering, was not an abundant material, physical life here on earth. He came for one reason, and one reason only, to proclaim that there is coming, another place, dimension, heaven, new earth, however you want to imagine it. He came to offer eternal life and a new spiritual body and free access to God. The owner and ruler of this planet has stepped out, so to speak, for a short time. The inhabitants have trashed the house. He will be coming back to clean up. I think what he is saying here is the thief, Satan, comes to kill - here on earth; steal - your opportunity to have eternal fellowship with God; and destroy - your soul. Not in the sense of annihilation, but in the sense of, you will not enter into God's glory and will spend eternity outside of God. Christ was giving mankind then, and now, via the prophets, Bible, his apperance himself, Holy Spirit, creation, and in the tribulation, 2 witnesses and 3 angels warning mankind not to take the mark, the opportunity to choose. Think what that means. A place, outside of God, for eternity. No light, no love, no kindess. A billion raging souls in a fallen, unredeemed state, no holds barred, ego run rampant, no law, no rule for eternity. No hope of redemption - a willing rejection of the offer. As Dante said, in his work the inferno, what is the most horrible thing about hell? There is no hope of death.

What an obit! They just can't stop, gotta advertise TWI everywhere, even when someone's dead. This is pathetic. Catcup - how awful! I hope that poor woman was all right. TWI just turned people into monsters. Hey, they're copouts - God doesn't love them, why should I? Just took away people's humanity.

I apologize if you thought I was being rude to you Ham - I love your posts. But, oh yeah, tell that to JAL and its out the door for you.

Nope she's not. She's an amazing woman. She put her money where her mouth was, got her Masters and now pastors a church - Methodist I believe. You would be surprised how many people, after they left TWI were shown by God, how many of TWI's doctrines were wrong, and the Holy Spirit, who indwells in every believer, leads them towards the truth. I'm glad she got out when she did. Who cares if she was a "star" in CES or whatever.

EP, I have been seeing lately how the whole Bible is essentially a book of prophecy. The prophecies given to the men in the OT, were hard to understand, as they searched dilegently to know more of what these promises to Israel were. In fact, they couldn't quite grasp it, and after Daniels visions, where he wrote down the prophecies, he was told to seal the scroll, it was not time to be known. In the NT, we see a new prophecy spoken by the Apostles - we are now joint heirs with Christ, we are invited to enter his kingdom, we have been made holy enough to do so by Christ. We also see many of the OT prophecies fullfilled in his life and death. In Revelation, we see all of the prophecies of the OT fulfilled, down to every jot and title. We see the seals opened and the scroll of Daniel understood. I believe, for example your verse from Thessalonians, that the early church was being exhorted to seek and understand the prophecies regarding Christ and the coming new heaven and earth and glory, and reject the many false prophets that arose. From an overview, every prophecy was given to mankind so they may see the big picture, life here, is but a speck in time. God will renew it, there will be a brand new creation - us, the sons of God, of whom the universe and earth will glory in. The Bible shows us what was, what is, and what is to come. Without the knowledge of this prophecy, we wander. I think using prophecy, to run people's lives is not of God. To me, real prophecy revolves around 3 things: The OT - it regarded the coming Christ - the lamb of sacrifice and later, fulfilled in Revelation, the Lion of Judah; the NT - we are now included; Revelation - what is to come. We have the Word, we can know. God does not need multitudes of mini, so called "prophets" to continue to add or take away from the Words of the book. I have met only one prophet in my life, and God showed it to me clear as day, and it is someone sense knowledge wise you would never have expected. I won't say they are many, but I think they are quite rare. I do not need a so-called "prophet" to prophesy over me, I have the Holy Spirit within. Christ is my mediator, not a man.

Ahhh... I get it now EP! I was never a Dead fan, more Airplane, Hendrix, Joplin, etc. I think with a name like EP and ranting your first post, people may have thought you have come to set us all straight. No problem, I understand :)

EP, I'm sure many of us are moved by the Holy Spirit to post here, trust me, you aren't the only one. Also, many of us are not moved by the Holy Spirit to post here, but we're here anyway - all TWI survivors. You are just one in thousands and a newbie here. What you say, or believe is your operation of being a "prophet" (TWI's favorite ministry for anyone to have by the way, which for 99.999 percent of those who think they are a prophet, is nothing but ego - huge ego - hey, I'm God's spokesman, listen to me!!!) to us, means nothing. In fact, we will probably figure, you're most likely a false one. Chill out, enjoy our discussions, get to know us. Don't come here in your "prophet" persona, be yourself.

Eyesopen, feel free to jump into as many threads as you want, that's what we're here for! We discuss. We may not all agree, but its interesting to read differing opinions. Thanks for the kind words!

Anyone can memorize a book, whether its a bible, a play, a poem. The Word without the Holy Spirit is useless. It is a book of prophecy from man's separation from God to his restoration to God, as we read, the Holy Spirit unveils it to us. Without the Holy Spirit, its foolishness to men. As men without spirit often say about the bible, "has God said?..." Its nonsense to them. In the OT, the HS was in the world, but did not dwell in the heart of man. When Christ arose, he sent the comforter. The HS's work became to dwell in the hearts of men and to reveal Christ and God and their love and grace to them. Men in the OT prophesised of what was to come but could not understand it. They studied their own prophecies intently. With the HS in us, we can now understand, we can now see the whole picture and the future is revealed (Daniel, Revelation). One thing I recently noted is how we are "sealed" with the spirit. In the same way the blood over the doorway sealed Israel from the angel of death, in the same way the 144,000 will be sealed, in the same way Noah was sealed in the ark, etc. We are told now, that the force, or power - the HS - is what is now keeping mankind's evil in check. We are told at some point it will leave the world, its specific purpose for this age fulfilled. When it leaves, since it indwells in us, we will go with it. Once it is gone, mankind's evil will run rampant - unchecked, there will be nothing to hold it back. God's love dwelling in this world in human hearts will be gone. I shudder to imagine a world like that. Thus, the name for that age - the Tribulation. Its shameful how TWI never taught its people basic truths from the Word. The HS reveals God to you as he opens your eyes in the Word and in other ways. Not your retemories and VP's definitions.

Rainbow, welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear the loss you have been through with TWI, I truly admire the stand you took with your son, many people would not have. There are many of us here who still love God, but have "moved on" from TWI or its materials. The further away I've been and the more study of the Word and great Christian writers, I realize TWI did not teach us the basics of Christian theology and thought. There is much to learn. God will put thoughts, questions and things on your heart to learn about, follow where they lead. I think God is preparing you to move ahead, as you're starting to be a bit "bored" by TWI - maybe time for more than milk?

Drove my beater with no heater for the very last time... LOL! Great parody.

Outandabout - that's a great way of seeing it. I remember when I was in residence and I did a word study on "faith" - or believing as VP liked to call it. I quickly saw, it means TRUST. We are to trust in God. In TWI, we pictured what we wanted and believed God to bring it to pass - just keep that "mind picture" there. In other words, with our minds and our mind pictures, we were directing the God of the Universe to do our bidding. Because by the law of "the magic of believing" - he MUST bring it to pass. We made God our magical genie. We told him what we want, he must bring it to pass. When you think about it, How arrogant of the creature to tell the creator what to do. The book of Hebrews solidified it. All those great acts of trusting in God (or those great acts of "believing" for some of you) were very instructive. First, God gave revelation. The man carried it out, trusting God would perform. I.e., Moses didn't take it into his head to part the red sea. God told him to. He believed, or trusted, what God said. God tells Joshua to march around the walls of Jericho for 7 days. Now, he could have said, you are nuts! I mean, it does sound crazy, but he trusted in what God told him. In other words, the men didn't get an idea in their head and tell God what to do. Its the other way around, God told them and they carried it out. We are now to trust God's Word and God in our lives. Trust he has us in his care. That is much easier than the "believing" we used to do.

Danny - LOL!!!!! Methinks too much study of Nag hamarabi has gone to your head - time for a break!

I just love that old TWI phrase - we have to be "doing something for God," or, God has called us to do "great things." Pray Uptown, just what are these "doing things" for God we should be doing? Specifically - what does it mean to you? I think loving people, blessing them, and worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth is "doing great things for God," i.e., living our lives as Christ would have us. Obviously, that's not good enough for you. So, what is doing "great things" for God mean to you? What is it we should all be doing to make you and God happy?

Its easier to get forgiveness that it is permission. That one served me well for years in TWI - in other words, don't ask - just do what you want, if someone doesn't like it - tough. Just apologize. Why ask to do something when the answer would most likely be "no." Especially if you were in residence.

My sister and her husband - lifers on TWI staff for years did not have the money either to put their boys through college. One just graduated OSU Fischer School of Business Magna Cum Laude, the other CCAD (a Columbus art college). They did it through loans, and working part time and full-time summers for money. Myself and my brother co-signed much of their loans. In this society, a young person must get a degree or tech education, or spend a lifetime in a minimum wage job. It can be done through loans and work. Sure, they will have debt to pay off, but they will always be able to provide well for themselves. This chaps me though to see the big wig's kids go to college with your ABS. I started wondering about that years ago when I noticed VP would not let his kids, Sarah or JP in the corps until they had their college education first. Meanwhile, corps were made to feel like copouts if they wanted to go to school. And the saddest thing of all, is that the privileged innie kids who do get the degree will never use it. They will be owned by TWI. What mega-hypocrisy though.

Good conversation. We know there are bodies terrestial as well as bodies celestial. From some books I've read also, many people believe that the spiritual dimension is much heavier, or denser, so to speak than this physical dimension we live in. When Christ in his resurrected body was able to pass through walls in this dimension, I wonder if it was because his new "true" spiritual body was much heavier, denser, and suited for the dimension he now inhabits. I didn't understand this until I was driving to work one morning through fog. Fog is a substance, but because I am much denser than it, I am easily able to pass through it. Simplistic - yes, because I'm not a scientist, but it makes sense. Angels who just "appear" out of nowhere, help someone and then are gone. They step through, help, and step back again. In some ways, you could almost say, the spiritual world, or dimension "heaven" is all around us - not up in outer space in the universe somewhere. If the spiritual world is the "real" world, our physical universe would be the "shadow" world so to speak, the fog in the midst of true reality. Most people look at this world as the "true" reality and another dimension - or heaven - something outside - is the shadow realm. I think maybe we have it backwards, we are the fog, shadow, lying in the midst of the true - outside our physical senses. Yet God, in his grace, allows his messengers a peek into the heavenly dimension. How he does it, I don't know. Even Paul didn't know. He just knew that it happened.

So, what the heck happened? They ran right over us and through us, all the holes the defense left. Could not having played in 50 days been a reason? Bad coaching? I've never seen a trouncing like this.

Oh yeah, I watched on staff while PP and PL were having their "secret" but pretty obvious affair, and his wife's heart was breaking...

It sounds as though its religion people are ....ed off at - which I totally agree with. I don't want to be jumping through hoops, do this, do that, either. I don't want some pastor, leader, group of people, or whatever, judging me either - ever! The tragic thing about TWI was there was no knowledge of Christ. None. The only time we ever used the name was at the end of a prayer. I truly believe that those who drive away people who want to know God, were not of God - yes, this includes to me the Vicster. How can one chop out the gospels and Revelation? I don't look at the Bible as a history book. I have come to see it over the years as a book of prophecy. We know all of the angels and all of creation sang and rejoiced when earth was made. The Bible shows the perfection, ruination, and restoration to perfection again. Its a walk with God, not some leader or organization. I am not talking about certain individuals here either. I know for a lot us, because of TWI teachings - we were waiting for the lightening bolt, tragic car accident, or whatever fear TWI put in our minds to keep us there - to hit when we left. I remember the day, on a sidewalk in NYC, when I turned and walked away. I felt, joy, and as if great bondage had been lifted. It was time to get on with my life. I believe it was God working in the hearts and minds of those of us who left. He got us out. I think God's just patiently waiting for many of us, because of our TWI experience, who want nothing to do with God or the Bible (this included me) to come back. I also came across two books that really changed my life. What got me, is in TWI we were never taught the "rudiments" of Christianity. I read people's questions here (not talking about anyone individually, just over my years here on GS), that are so rudimentary, I am just amazed the damage TWI has done. I don't want to go to the church of religion either.

No, I believe there are many who are born again and have turned away from church, or after an experience like TWI would like nothing to do with any kind of organized Xianity again. But they are born again. In fact, I know quite a few Christians who do not attend church. They just can't stomach it anymore. I don't know about any of you. That's why we are told not to judge. As far as being "controlled" - I don't get that at all. I think that's leftover TWI thinking - that said God is in control of every facet of your life. I think it comes down to a simple exchange where Christ says, give me your life and in return, I will give you mine. He stands at the door and knocks, note he does not barge his way in. In TWI if you let him in, then you had to take classes, go WOW, corps, or "do great things for God" somehow. This is rubbish. He wants us to live our lives and use our minds. He is the portal - to a new dimension, a new creation, eternity. He offers this to us. Its not about control. Each case is individual and in God's hands. But, I do wonder about someone who says they were born again, and can just chuck is all without a second thought and walk away from Christ. All I can go by is my experience. Even when I left TWI, wanted nothing more to do with organized religion, I still never lost my desire to learn about him and God still worked with me and taught me things through the years. I was never able to turn my back on him. So, really, who's to say - no man can ever judge who is and who is not a new creation. We will find out soon enough I imagine.

There are many people who intellectually like the Bible, Jesus, go to church, or belonged to TWI, or other organizations and enjoyed it. They enjoyed the fellowship and the people. Maybe some were raised in a church culture, or a home where someone was a believer, and it was a way of life, a societal tradition they have carried on. We have seen threads in the past years here where people faked SITing at the end of PFAL, or other places. One of my relatives, who took PFAL and SITed at the end of PFAL, told me he hadn't really, he was speaking italian phrases. Anyone can read the Bible, memorize it, analyze it, research it, and quote scripture. That does not mean they are necessarily born again. I truly believe once one is born again, they cannot lose it. I also believe that those who seem spiritual, do prophecies, healings, etc., to whom Christ says, depart from me, I never knew you, were never really born again. No marvel, Satan's ministers appear as angels of light, and do so in many churches, groups, etc., whereever people can be led away from Christ. We are told in the last days, the church will become apostate, many will fall away, or look for new doctrines (new age, paganism, ufo-ology, whatever). We now call Europe a post-christian society. Only 20% even believe in God anymore, and even less go to church. They've gone beyond it, with modern technology and science, they have no need for God anymore. In this country, many pastors, priests, etc. will tell you they think Christ, the resurrection, and offer of eternal life is a nice story - they do not believe it, but many of their congregation do, so they play along. That is why God tells us not to judge - we cannot know who is and who isn't born again. Although fruit is an indication. Although, if someone who was once a Christian now told me they were an athiest, I would believe them, and think they probably were never born again. The "true" christians I know, in their hearts could never conceive of, or dream of turning away from and renouncing Christ. Those who renounce with no problem, I think never really knew him. Mental assent, sure, that's easy to do - but that doesn't mean they ever really believed in their hearts.