Sunesis

I think the reason John needed assurance, was because at that time, Israel was under the yoke of brutal Roman rule. There are two aspects to Christ and the Messiah's appearance in the O.T., the first is as the coming as the suffering lamb, the sacrifice for sin, the 2nd is the coming as the mighty ruler. The Jewish rulers, had focused on the King aspect, the King was coming again, and would release this yoke of bondage. Thus, awaiting the conquering King Messiah, who would rule over the earth. In their focus on this, they forgot about, or couldn't see the meek, sacrificial lamb. Sacrifice would have to come first. When Christ sat in the temple and read how he had come to heal, etc., he stopped at the next section. His sacrifice and atonment for sin would have to come first. They saw the Lamb of God. They rejected him. In Luke, I forget the verse as I don't have my Bible with me, it says, we will not have this man rule over us. At one point Christ literally offers the Kingdom now. The leadership wants him crucified. Anyway, my point is, since they had neglected the prophesies of the Lamb, the suffering one, and they didn't see him overthrow the Romans and establish his Kingdom, they were doubting. This is sad, because at one time, even John the Baptist had said, Behold, the LAMB of God. Now, he's starting to doubt. Yet, the amazing thing is when Christ was on the cross he recites Psalms 22:1, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? If you read the rest of the Psalm (which, in this context, Christ on the cross, is just amazing), realizing this psalm was a song, and a prophecy of himself, and he is reciting, or possibly singing it on the cross, it was a sign to all that this truly was the Messiah - the Lamb, and the second half of this psalm, the King as Ruler. He testifed of himself for all to hear. He died as the Lamb, and will return as the High Priest, Ruler and King.

Excie, it was so long ago, I lent the book to someone. I'll go to her website later and see if I can find it.

Glad you said that about the Purina and Pounce. I feed my kitty Eukanuba dry food and put a topping of Purina one dry on top, just for extra flavor, and pounce for treats. Last week I noticed he wasn't eating hardly at all and didn't like his pounce treats. So I gave him strickly just the Eukanuba and stopped the Purina One. He's rebounded nicely and his appetite is back to normal. Even though its dry food, I figured something had to be wrong with the purina and pounce. Normally he loves pounce, but was turning his nose up at it. Smart kitty.

Nice article, but I can see the other side just as well.

Eyewide Open, thank you for sharing that, I know its not easy. There are so many incidents like this all over. VPW was a misogynist. He disliked and had total contempt for women. Unfortunately, he passed this on to those he mentored, and we see the results manifested in certain male posters here. His having sex with them was not about love, compassion, concern, or whatever illusion he had. It was about power, pure and simple. It was about domination and conquest. For him, once the thrill of the hunt was over, and he had sex with the victim, it was off to find the next thrill, the next woman. His predatory lust was never satisfied. It was about power, domination, contempt, and hatred. John, you have learned well from your Master. I have also noted, most of the times you post regularly are the threads that have to do with sex. What are you - a voyeur? What are you doing on these threads if you don't believe the women here? Does it give you a secret thrill? You have just said women are dominating people who need to be brought under control. You really get a kick out of these threads don't you? I'm starting to think you are just as perverted as ole VP.

Sorry John. Struck a nerve did it? Well, understand this: That was VPW's very graphic fantasy of what he would like to do to me, and YOUR daughter. But, of course, you just can't believe he would think or say anything like that. Just be glad she was never in the corps and got to watch the beastiality videos with him. I'm sure you would have loved that. Deal with it. Wake up to reality. Your glorious idol you worship is of the wrong god, masquerading as a minister of light and righteousness. Don't like it? Those were his exact words to me in the motorcoach. Repeated twice, in case I missed it the first time. You need to read my posts more carefully. Its interesting how his sexual abuses don't bother you in the least, UNLESS, it involves one of your children. Just the thought of it makes you sick, doesn't it? So, we agree, VP was a sick puppy, a sexual pervert wasn't he?

You know Rascal, I wonder why I didn't up and leave then, but with the whole family in, a Rev. relative who was a region leader, it wasn't easy to walk away. I just avoided him after that. Also, this was just 2 hours before he was getting ready to teach the Sunday night service. I couldn't say anything because of "Lockbox." He told me, if I told anyone what he'd told me, since I was the only one he'd ever told this to, he'd know right away it came from me. Well, can't break a confidence with the MOG now, can you? When he first talked like this, I was - I guess cognative dissonance comes to mind. I changed the subject, then he went back and repeated what he wanted to do to me. This time I thought, he's really serious! Just then, DM came charging into the back, and I said, I have to go get ready and left. The only reason I wasn't thrown out, is because of the rest of my family I think. A couple of years later, I ran into someone who was out of TWI. She said, did he give that line... I said yes. She said, he gave it to all the girls. She also did not accept and was thrown out of a corps, and everyone was told she was possessed. It was amazing to hear the other side of the story. Then of course, I found out one of my best buddies in the corps was regularly servicing him and loving it, that's when I started realizing, hey, something's going on here...

Jean's just not interested. Not interested. Not interested is indifference. I.e., Jean just doesn't give 2 cents about anyone or anything. If it was Jean's daughter this happened to, well, she just wouldn't be interested, she just wouldn't care. In fact, she'd probably offer her daughter to the ole' Vicster, because he is such a man of God you know, and it would be wonderful and an honor for VP to teach her daughter how to service the MOG. First, he would teach her how to give a "proper" blow job, then, once he got her all hot and bothered after licking her breasts and body all up and down, he'd teach her how to have intercourse. I know this is what he'd do, because this is what he told me, graphically, he wanted to do to me on the motorcoach. But, from Jean's posts, she would either be "not interested" or honored the MOG liked her daughter so much and was willing to teach her. Boy, it must be nice living in the town called Denial. P.S., skip this post newbie Jean, flaming, valiant defendant of the faith of TWI, as you're obviously, "not interested." From, Sunesis, the one who has no credibility.

There was a serial killer who was with TWI and was written about in Ann Rule's book, I forget which one, the Lust Killer or the I-95 Killer, or another, I can't remember the title. I bought it years ago. Every time I looked at the guy's picture, I thought, he really does look familar. Then there, at his trial, his involvement with TWI is brought up - he even went to ROA and worked in the large food services tent. I thought - aha - that's where I'd seen him. I had worked with him! This guy was a serial murderer. He got involved in TWI, I think in Michigan, somewhere in the midwest. Some ladies' car had broken down, they were older women coming home from a fellowship. He stopped and fixed the car. They invited him to the next fellowship, he went. He became a fellowship regular, I think even took the class, I don't know, but he was involved for quite awhile. He started dating one of the women. Later, he murdered her. Of course, this was not mentioned at TWI.

TWI has destroyed too many people. TWI is a dead ministry - God doesn't live there anymore. His people have left. They pride themselves on their "Knowledge" of the Word. Yes, Jesus said, it testifies of him. That does not mean they have made him their Savior. TWI does not hold the Head - Christ - in esteem. To them, he is not the head of the body, VP, LCM, and now Rosie are. As long as they have their "Popes" - whoever is the chosen one this year - mediating for them, and interpreting the Word for them, they don't need no stinkin' Head. I don't believe, even if the young ones get in power, God will ever again give any increase. The kids will be twice as bad as the parents.

Let's see, VPW comes on to me in the motorcoach. Tells me in graphic detail what he wants to do, and why his wife cannot have sex with him. Also told me, I was the only person he had ever told this too, I better not ever tell anyone this. In disgust I leave, figuring, it must be just a one off weird thing. Years later, I learn this was the standard line he gave all of his prospects. LCM visiting Emporia, twice I had to walk out of his room. One of my best friends in an early corps, VP set his eyes on her, and had to have her. He sent on of his early corps girls to go make friends with her. It took almost all year, before they finally talked her into it. It was all about lock-box, those who were "spiritual enough" to handle it. They probably knew you would never go for this Jean, so obviously you were never approached, and had no clue, and they made sure you never would. When this same friend told me in candor, all the corps women VP had, plus all of the women in other towns and cities as he traveled around - the number is huge - this was no small time thing. VP had a woman in every port. When he tired of them, they were passed to Howard and Dean. When I took the blinders off and realized what had been going on, I literally felt sick - nauseaous, sick to my stomach. I believe it was God taking the blinders off. When VP went to California in the '60s to get a piece of the Jesus movement for himself, on his off time, he would go to the infamous SF porno movie theaters. I talked about it with the Rev. who accompanied him. He wondered why VP loved the porno stuff so much, but figured it was a boys will be boys thing. VP looked up one specific leader in SF, because he thought that one was a regular orgy goer. VP discussed with him, how it was ok from the Word and was looking for other Christians who were into it. VP, screwing a little 16 year old groovy christian of Rye girl in the early days in NY. She tried to make it through the corps, but never did. All of this is the tip of the iceberg. These are first hand accounts. Ever wonder about DM's best friends, all ladies? You did not become her friend, unless you had been with VP. I call it, the sex club. Of course they stuck together, who else would "understand" or could they talk about it with? If you were not in the "inner circle" you would not know. As far as I'm concerned, VP was a sick puppy, a sexual predator who was like a Rooster in a hen house. I do not believe he was born again. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing, satan's angel of light masquerading as a minister of God. No wonder he started saying a year before he died, I wish I were the man I knew to be. Too late.

Jean, why do you have such a hard-on for Rascal? What has she ever done to you? Why are you so up in arms because someone has a differing opinion? You come across as an angry, self-righteous, bible-thumping pharisee. Really, you just dog her everywhere. What's up with that?

Well, Bramble, your intimidation tactics, if that's what they are, are not impressive. You're no different than a million other guys who can do the same. My point is, why are you even bothering asking these questions if its all BS to you? George, same to you, back at 'cha buddy.

My point? Because there's a lot to those questions. Because I've seen you on other threads, twisting this and that and busting people's chops who are sincerely trying to answer your questions. A subtle mockery. If you really want to know, the info is out there. Maybe you should have a basic knowledge of it, and learn, without others having to do it for you, then we can have a great, informed discussion. But, since you say you don't believe, why are you expecting others to do your work for you? Educate yourself.

Waysider, yes, I recently reread Mere Christianity after 20 years. I thought - wow! Lewis writes so incredibly well, he truly had some kind of ministry in that area. He makes it logical and many unbelievers have come to Christ after reading that book. I enjoyed last year, the movie Narnia - though I hate "kids movies" - which is what I thought it would be, the allegories are outstanding. I was electrified at how Aslan (the lion-redeemer) gave people life. If you get a chance, check it out. Hi Danny. I really believe that VP and thus, TWI, did not follow the head of the body - Christ. Over the years, I'll get a thought, an idea, a concept, something seems interesting, I'll start looking it up, and its another wonderful thing God has showed me. The Word does say, we need no man to teach us. Sure, we can hear teachings, but it is the Lord we look to for our understanding. TWI worshipped "the word." Much head knowledge, but no foundation to stand on. Christ is the foundation. It wasn't there. VP made himself the foundation. TWI fell. How could VP have glossed over Christ's life? - except, of course, on easter - as we were told, the Gospels were for our learning, not really written to us. How could he negate Christ's divinity and turn him into a mere man with an extra special dose of holy spirit. A man, whom we could be just like if we renewed our minds? He brought him down. There is so much about Christ we were never taught - the basis of Christianity. How could VP have no interest in Revelation? An amazing glorious book - God's plan fulfilled, perfection restored. How could VP have no interest in where people's souls go after death? How could VP, instead of telling us to look at Christ and the glorification of us with Christ, tell people "heaven help you at the bema, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes" - he put fear in people of being with Christ. I agree with corps night - three hours of droning, droning, dro zzzzzzzzzzzzz........ What was the profit? He put the corps to sleep with the Word, turned it from something living to something dry. Oh well. I just found these books great, lots of food for thought.

Ok Jean, that's quite a strong statement calling Rascal a sociopath. Rascal made some great points. In hindsight, I also believe VP was a shuckster, a wolf in sheep's clothing and not born again. This is what we do, discuss. Someone disagrees with you and they're a sociopath? Who made you God and judge?

I thought I'd start a little topic on this. Over the years, since I left TWI and have continued my search for God and Christ, I have come to the realization, that TWI was dismal, sorely lacking at teaching any of us the Christian "basics" and the answers to questions that most people ask. As I see the similar types of questions asked here (which is great! People want to know), I sometimes think of the verse, my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge... When we see the fruits of TWI, we do see the fear and destruction of people whom the shephards did not pastor. Anyway, in my "quest" for answers over the years, I thought I'd share with you some books that helped me understand the Bible, and our lives now, and why each one of us, our souls, is so important, and what is in store for the future. God is extremely clear as to what he has planned now, and in times to come. There was the 1st heaven and earth, we are in the 2nd, and the 3rd is to come, when all will be restored to the perfection that was orginally in the 1st. He has written his plan in the stars, in his creation, via his prophets, via his son on earth, via the Bible, and in the last times, through the Holy Spirit, dreams, visions, and other ways. He is telling man - wake up, it won't always be this way, a change is coming. He is patient, willing no person to be lost. Some of the books that answered great questions for me, with logic, and changed my life, and other people's lives are: 1. Mere Chrisitianity by C.S. Lewis. A hardcore aetheist who became a Christian, a scholar, and a wonderful writer, he lays out Christianity wonderfully, and what our great hope is, and what we shall be, and how our choices affect our eternity. Wonderful read and thought provoking. 2. The Invisible War by Donald Barnhouse. The guy knows his Bible but tells it like the most riveting story you have ever read. An incredible overview of what we and the earth once was, what is now, and what is to come. 3. Revelation - also by Donald Barnhouse. I could not put it down. I have read other books on Revelation, but this is the one - you will not want to put it down because you will want to know what comes next. He shows how Revelation fulfills every prophecy in the O.T. Revelation is the fulfillment of the O.T. Its just amazing. 4. The Unknown Land, Hell's Dominion. I forget the author's name, but its also on Amazon. Most Christians, including me, have really no concept of what "hell" is - its not a burning fireplace with a little red man with a pitchfork torturing people (we can thank Dante and the Medieval writers for those concepts). This is an amazing book. If you really would like to know, what is available for those who would prefer to not be with God, or have anything to do with him, when God says to them, "thy will be done," you will find some amazing answers here. 5. Along those lines, there is another book I recently read, called Twenty Minutes in Hell. It is amazing the references to this place, this eternal darkness, in the Bible. Don't think when you die, you're dead, God has set eternity in our souls. In this book, he has done a thorough study of gravedom in the Bible, most of us are totally ignorant of what God really says on these matters. 6. I recently finished another great book called, Another Time, Another Man, by Dake. A great study on what the first heavens and earth were. God has a dividing line. You will always see the phrases "from the foundation of the world" or before the foundation of the world, or since the foundation of the world. "World" here is kosmos - a social order. There was a social order, during the 1st heavens and earth, that was quite different from the one we're in now. 7. The Nephilim, the Pyramid and the Apocalypse - by Patrick Heron, 12th Corp, one of the top sellers on Amazon. What happened to mankind that it had to be destroyed in Noah's flood. Why was Noah saved? Why does God say he was genetically perfect? Just who were these "gods" that ruled over ancient places like Sumeria and Babylon? Why was it Israel's divine mission to wipe out certian tribes? Or is God just a genocidal manic? Puts the OT together and answers many questions. Great read. He has really done his research. There's lots more, but these books give a Christian, or one who wants to know, a great overview, and will tie many things together more than PFAL ever did. Reading these gave me a great platform and understanding of God. Yes, in TWI, we truly could not go beyond what we were taught.

Your questions are basic theological tenants that, sadly, TWI neglected to ever teach. If you really would like answers to these basic, doctrinal questions, there are great sites on the net that can answer these questions in depth. For something really basic and foundational that would answer your questions, I would recommend C.S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity" - available on Amazon, it is considered a classic. It has profoundly changed many people's lives - including mine. Donald Barnhouse's books, The Invisible War, is also excellent, one of the best overviews I have ever read on Christianty, and will answer pretty much all of your questions - he's a fascinating read. Also available on Amazon. If you would like to know if there really is a "hell," "The Invisible Land, Hell's Dominion" is also available on Amazon. Written by a man who had been born again at an early age, but hated God, mocked him, tried to get his friends away from the Bible, you know, you're typical anti-God, I hate him stuff, and then died. I have given this book to several of my Christian friends, and them to their friends, many people have gotten born again after reading this. You may want to check it out - if you seriously want to be given an alternative view of an eternal afterlife without God.

Ok Lindy, we get it. You don't believe, you hate God, the bible is bs, what happened to Paul was bulls***t, ad nauseum, ad nauseum, you're much smarter and not taken in by all this superstitious religious mythology. Us poor saps just can't see how there really is no God and Jesus is the opium of the masses. Whatever. Troll thread.

Oakspear, I think what she cares about, is that the danger is: If God has placed eternity in every person's soul (Ecc. 3:11), and if, there really is a place, where those who rejected Christ's invitation to believe on him, to receive a new spirit and live eternally with God, if there really is a place without God for those who do not wish to be with him, then I think, maybe she does not want to see you go there, but rather be with Christ. By accepting Christ's message, we receive a new spirit, and new body, as flesh cannot ever be holy enough to enter into his kingdom. Mankind is a fallen race. Christ is the portal to the new dimension. Corruption cannot inherit incorrpution. Of course, that's "IF." I believe, in these last days, God has given some amazing visions to people. We all read about Near Death Experiences, where all is lovely and light, but there are several, where it has not been. God is using everything to let people know, come to him. Of course, this is all a big "IF." To me, at the end of our lives, we have all made a choice to be with God, or not, in eternity. I have either said to God, thy will be done; or, God has said to me, your will be done. So, if any of this is true, yes, she cares about you, and the eternal consequences of your choice.

I agree Roy. Christianity is big business and there's lots of money to be made off of it. When I run into the Jehovah's witnesses, at least they give me their Watchtower magazine for free. There are so many Christian sites where you can get free downloads. Amazing articles, you just print right off, no one's making money. I like the point, indulgences. Yes, paying for head knowledge. Most people, in order to keep their ministries going, rake in the bucks with merchandise. Its like rock bands, they may not sell a lot of reccords, or make money touring, the big money is in the merchandise they sell. These ministries need a "product" to stay alive. I think there will be some very surprised Christian "ministers" someday.

Dot, this is heartbreaking. You, Rascal, Ex - I wish there were something that could be done to make things right. After I left, and also realized the wasted years, the catching up in the "world" I would have to do, one verse came to mind: The Lord will repay the years the locusts have eaten. I think about that, and as I look back, he has. Hopefully, you can still see him at work in your lives. You are all awesome!!!

Full Circle, keep posting, I'm enjoying them. Its always great to hear other opinions and perspectives. And I do understand what you're saying about Simony. There are quite a few older threads on here about VP and his marketing scheme. From his past, I believe, when he discovered B.G. Leonard's classes, VP realized he hit the goldmine. He had looked about for years for something to sell, market, give him an edge and he found it in B.G. Leonard's classes. Unfortunately, poor old BG never thought to copyright the Bible he was teaching, so VP was able to. Eureke, goldmine for VPW. Now, just get some kids turned on and let them do the work selling it for me. TWI was about making money for ole Vic - nothing more, nothing less. The class was his product. I believe he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. After all, what could be more enticing to people then to have "spiritual power." Than to have God, and his power, at your command!!! God will give you what you want. Life more abundantly - in the material realm!

I used to hate that saying. I remember DM telling me this - you don't have to love each other to get married. In time, the love will grow. I thought that was one of the stupidest things I'd ever heard. Read The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis. Eros is very important in a marriage. It is the "glue" so to speak, that keeps people together in good and bad times. I remember being on staff in Emporia watching people get ready for the mass weddings. Some of the people were so obviously mismatched. One in particular, a friend, I asked her why was she getting married? Well, because DM said it would work and she'd learn to love him. I wanted to say, stop, don't do it! Also to several others. Then, you'd see these couples at corps week and in the corps tents, the women were so unhappy. Sometimes they couldn't even look at their husbands. One girl was divorced within a few weeks - at least she was honest. I think, in the corps when I was in, there was so much pressure to get married, and so many women really did want to be married. I think both sexes thought in their last year in residence, that this was their last chance. Well, yeah, look how well this theory worked for DM.

I don't see what is so hard to understand. I can see disagreeing or not liking it, but the understanding is not hard. God tells us, from the beginning through the end, that there is a new heaven and earth coming. There is a gigantic evolutionary step coming. He has invited all to enter into this new heaven, into his love. You, with the wonderful free will he gave you, have the opportunity to make a choice. To be with him, or, if you hate him, to not be with him. There are many who are repulsed by God and Christ, just as a vegetarian is repulsed by meat. Love and hate of God are two sides of the same coin. But it is your choice. Those who have chosen not to take the offer, to be regenerated, as a child of God, will be given their desire, to be without him. God cannot do otherwise. He cannot force you to take his offer, nor to love him. You are not a robot. Its not unfair. What would be unfair, would be if God forced you, or any human being, to love and worship him. That's coercion, and overrides your free will. That would be slavery. That is unjust.