Sunesis

Fun quiz. I also scored as a Chalcedon compliant. I don't really know what that means, but it sounds interesting.

Interesting discussion. I think, however Adam and Eve were created in God's image, it was more than what we see now. When we look at a person, the body is what you see. Our bodies and souls are dominant. I almost think with Adam and Eve, their spirit was the dominant covering - maybe similar to Christ in the transfiguration when he was seen in his glory. What ever this image was, they were devastated when they lost it. Now, they were no different looking than the animals. That's why they looked so forward to a savior, redeemer, who would restore the glory they had lost, and restore the earth back to the life it had lost. Man was created with a body, soul and spirit, but, its like when a building collapses, the spiritual layer, when they fell, collapsed into the soul, they are now so intermingled, only the Word - the sharp two edged sword can divide them. I can see it in two ways now, I don't know which is right but my thoughts have been lately, that when one is born again, since we are told we will be a totally "new" creation - a new creation that will be revealed to the Universe, which now is groaning, waiting for our glory to be revealed - and will glory in us, then when we are born again, we receive a totally new spirit which can commune with the one we have, or, when we are born again, somehow the spirit we have is activated - flipped on, like a computer, it is "regenerated" so to speak. It is made new. Then, I think in the future, our spirits will be the dominant appearance, and they will be magnificent, newly created, or restored. You know as a Christian, the other day, there was a panhandler, so I gave him some money. I thought, someday, if he is born again, he will be a magnificent creature, which, if men saw, would fall down and worship.

You go girl!!! I have always hoped one of those kids would break away. She did good! They're young, let them have their own lives.

B.G. was invited to HQ by Steve Sann also I believe. This was during corps week. Many corps that day went to visit him and have him pray for them for healing, etc. One of my friends went and was extremely blessed. LCM went ballistic - ofd his rocker when he heard BG was there. He didn't just grouse, he was furious that BG Leonard had been brought on grounds. I believe he was ordered off, and to leave, or else kept isolated so no other corps could see him.

Hi Captain Spiritual. I know, its sad. I know, in Revelation, at the end of the wrath, when Christ comes back and mankind is about to enter the millenial era, the nations are divided. This division is all based on how they treated the Jews during the tribulation. Those nations who treated them well, enter into the 1000 years of peace where the earth will give forth abundantly. Those who hated and persecuted them, enter into the abyss to await the final, great resurrection and judgment. VP, with his dislike of Jews, affiliation with the Liberty Lobby and a subscriber to their Spotlight magazine, tapes, and monthly hotline call-in updates (most of the Advanced Class, Trilateral Commission, illuminati, etc. tapes he played came from them), conspiracy theories (remember mal-pack?) - I don't know, looking back, its weird. So much of his "revelation" or "inside knowledge" came from monthly briefings from the Liberty Lobby. Of course, us youngsters and loyal followers thought he was getting this from God since he was so "tapped in." What would we have done if we had known he was really getting his "inside" info from a white supremist conspiracy outfit, and palming it off to us "revelation." There's a sucker born every minute. This was the MOG for our day and time?

Captain Spiritual, there have been huge threads on the past of VP and his inclinations. He told my best friend, regarding the Jews in the motorcoach one day, that Hitler had the right idea, just went about it the wrong way. R*l** Du**ofs** said, at times VP made him feel like all jews were zionist pigs He did sell those two books, the Twelfth Tribe, and "Myth of the 6 million - I forget the title, and another one. They were only sold by the Liberty Lobby's publishing arm (which has also been discussed - all of VP's advanced class tapes he played coming from them, and his involvement with the Liberty Lobby - which is a front for US white supremist groups). Those books regarding the jews, and saying they are not "real" jews, have been proven false with modern DNA. There's lots in the archives. You're new here, yes, I guess its surprising to hear. I'm not going over it again, if you do a search you should find the old threads. LoneWolf, yes, I really believe what I said. Why do you marvel, do not Satan's ministers also appear as angels of light? From knowing him, and knowing the destruction he's left in his wake, yes, I do not believe he was born again. If you look at it from that point of view, everything he did and said, all the results and fruit make perfect sense. I'm not going to get drawn into an argument or elaborate more. Yes, that's what I really believe.

Mark, I don't think you'll find anyone with anything bad to say about JG - he was a wonderful man, loved and respected by all he worked with and led. There were some wonderful leadership in TWI too.

I knew LCM pretty well. For some reason he liked me and we got a long well on a friend type level. Why I don't know. When he was off stage, he was always joking, having fun - he could be a great, warm-hearted person. I really enjoyed hanging with him. I even asked him one evening, we were hanging out on the steps of Emporia Hall, or whatever it was called, why he yelled so much. He smiled and said he did it to get people's attention - to get them to listen. I guess it seemed reasonable. That's why I never really took any of it personally when he went on rants. I think, if he had never met VP or been in TWI he would still be a great person. I too watched him getting more and more out there. He could not stand the pressure of "top" leadership. After POP was read at corps week that year, they had him all drugged up at the ROA and were afraid he would commit suicide. People rise to their level of incompetence - LCM as president was a classic example of this. Plus, one of his wife's sisters told me both sets of parents were worried he was too young to have so much power, money, etc. under him. He is a true example of leadership, "not being a novice, lest being lifted up with pride, they fall into condemnation of the devil." What he did with his power was despicable, I am not excusing him, please don't anyone think I am, but I hope, with his years spent away from the organization, he will come to his senses. I believe VPW was not born again, but I believe Craig is, hopefully God will work in his heart and he can see and have a full realization of what he has done and someday try and make things right. As for VP and his love for pomp, ceremony, etc., I know VP was a supporter of Hitler, he was a proud German. I say this, because I saw a Hitler Youth curriculum that was used in the training schools for kids picked to be officers someday. I was amazed at how much it sounded like the way corps! I thought, my God, was this VP's guide???? As the other poster said, VP cherry picked things and used this or that. I have always wondered where VP got the "inspiration" for not just the corps, but the structure of the program itself. I can guarantee you, it did come from him.

Oh yeah, that reservoir a few miles out of town, that was nice. Me and my friends would get beer and go there on summer evenings. One summer me, them, and several staffers ended up with horrible chiggers - we all know where we had snuck off to. Yes, I did get out and about a lot.

I also have a feeling, many of the "sensible" changes were recommended by lawyers. I don't think its all out of the goodness of their hearts.

Eyes, that was amazing. They never told us about that. I jsut don't know what to say after this story. What was wrong with the "leadership" not bringing you guys in earlier????? Thank God for your father. Thanks for sharing.

Hi Edi! Long time no see or talk to! I'm glad you're back posting. I always loved your insight.

Wow - thank you for sharing that Eyes! This is just sickening. We were expendable, we were the little slaves. I find it incredible, yet, I can understand, how people would have done nothing while the woman took her toe off. Everyone putting their lives in danger to look "spiritual." There was always a little rebel (i.e., normal, using the common sense God gave them) - you, in every group. Don't ever condemn yourself for this. This is just sick.

You would. I almost think they thought we were expendable though. I can't think of one other organization that did this. I know the hippies hitched alot, but times changed. I knew there was just something really wrong with it. I remember they sent me and another female to hitch together from Emporia to HQ 'cause were were "tough" when they had us spend some time at H.Q. for a bit. Talk about weirdos. Let's see, out side of St. Louis, a poor couple turned around and picked us up. They were going into the city to look for a black woman to take back to their farm to work. They said they were giving her an "opportunity" to get out of the ghetto. Oiy vay.... Later, we got picked up by a man around 2:30 am who was going to Dayton. He had separated from his wife, and found out she had sold their 12 year old daughter to a farmer for the summer. He was going to kill the wife and get his little girl back. I witnessed as best I could. My partner was asleep in the back seat. She later said, I don't know what you said to him, but he seemed a lot calmer. I'm thinking yeah, he'll blow away his wife calmly now. I did understand his anger though. Those two took the cake, all in a 8 hour time period. It was insanity. What were they thinking???? two young women hitching across country in the middle of the night??

Yes, I think those times he left, he was murdering. Where did you find the excerpts Excie? Later in the book, they talk about TWI during his trial. That poor lady. There are pics of him on the internet if you google his name. He's old, ugly and fat now, and there is one page where they interviewed him. Typical psychopath. You would have thought someone in this poor lady's fellowship would have gotten the creeps from him.

Highway, Nope, you weren't missing anything "spiritual" or heavy. I think some of us looked at the college division and were jealous. You guys had your lives and could pretty much do what you wanted! Eyes, thanks for sharing! I know, if you weren't in the corps, people don't understand how you could feel the sense of condemnation even years later. Yes, they did set people up to fail. I know on my interim year, I was sent to one of the NYC boroughs. I was overjoyed - couldn't believe my luck. DM came up and asked how I felt about it. I said, great! She seemed quite surprised and and a bit puzzled I was so happy about it. It never occured to me to tell her I had grown up there. I'm glad I didn't or they would have probably changed my assignment. I felt that way, because I had grown up in the NYC suburbs and the City had been my playground so to speak. My parents had friends there, as young as ten, they'd go in and party for New Years Eve and leave me with their friends' kids for the weekend and we roamed the city without adults. I loved it, vowed I would live there someday in Manhattan. When the hippie revelution hit, me and my 9th grade buddies would roam the east and west village and hang in Washington Square Park or Tompkins Square Park - the ground zero of hippiedoom on the east coast. Everyone did, it just just a 20 minute train ride away. My parents still had friends in Brooklyn and other places, and some in NJ. Anyway, I found out years later, DM told me they had sent me there because they figured it would make or break me. They thought I was going to have a misreable year and fail. She was stunned when I said, why would you think that - that it would break me? Well, since my family had moved to Ohio in my senior year of high school, for some reason, leadership thought we had always lived in Ohio. I told DM, but I grew up in NY. She said, no wonder you were so happy to be going back. Actually, I had a lot of fun there that interim year - unrelated to TWI. Weekends at the Jersey shore that summer with my mom's friends, hanging at Coney Island, lovely summer days in Washington Square Park in Manhattan, plus I had my job there. My father was going to pay my last month's corps tuition, it all had to be in before we went back to our last year in residence. He forgot, so it wasn't in on time. LCM sent out a nasty letter - don't come back for a year, I'll see you with the 8th! I called his secretary in tears, its on its way! Please let me back! She was nice, but LCM was heartless. I was bummed for a week, I was a total failure it was awful the condemnation - but then I came to my senses. I thought, whoa, hello, wait a minute, I'm having a great time here. Some Manhattan believers had a place in SoHo, one of their roommates was leaving, and they asked me to come on over and live with them! I thought, this is great, this is my dream, fine, I'll take the year off and come back with the 8th corps. So I wrote a letter telling LCM, fine, no problem, see ya in a year with the 8th! It was literally that long - one sentence. Well, boy, did I hear back super quickly from him - he told me to get my butt back with the 7th. I guess the money showed up, but by then, I was a bit bummed out - I was really looking forward to staying. I wish someone had talked some sense into me. If I had stayed, I don't think I would have gone back. But, I also realized, when they made threats, if you called their bluff, they backed down. I've digressed... I'd also like to hear about this LEAD accident, what happened, and how did you escape getting hurt? What was your disobedience?

Jeez Eyes, that's an amazing story. I always wondered what it was like for the corps who were in residence during that time. It figures, it was all you guys fault, wasn't it? Don't worry, CG**r said 90% of the WC was possessed. So, how did you find out you were marked to leave before that, and why did they keep you on? What schmucks. It sounds like this was used to start "purging" the corps right then adn there. How many of you were called in and asked to leave? How were you treated by the others while waiting for your rides, did they even feed you?? Did they not say anything to the corps staying that you had been kicked out? If they did say something, were those asked to leave ostracized by their "brothers and sisters"?

Eyes, what corps were you in, if you don't mind my asking. Did corps people really sneak away in the night after POP? I never knew that. I knew people in the corps that took NoDoze before corps night so they could stay awake. When did they start allowing people to stand? No one would have dared do that with us in the 7th. Yeah, VP or Craig droning on and on. Craig used to wow everyone with his photographic memory - everyone thought he was just amazing how he could rattle off the chapters and verse. In my last year, it was made bearable by a 9th corps guy who sat near me, who drew puffy the cat cartoons - they were a riot. I made him entertain me by drawing new ones then and there. He was great. He later ended up on staff and met a local St. Mary's lady and had some good times! Bless his heart! I never told. I figured by then, he deserved it. As far as retemories - that was a nightmare for me. LCM yelling and screaming at those that didn't have them down. I have terrible memory for that stuff. After every corps night, we'd have to stay after and do this written test on them. Me and a group of 20 or so flunked them every corps night. Near the end of the year, LCM went on a rampage against those of us who kept failing. Finally, it was really late one night, he was tired, gave us our tests, and said have them on his desk at 7:00 a.m. I went back, pulled out my bible and filled it out and had it on his desk. I got 100%. Thank God for that little window of opportunity. Why did they have to spend almost all year on one section?

Yup, my biggest regret in life is I didn't finish college. After I left TWI, I tried to put myself through it. But it was a catch-22. I made enough to support myself, but too much for loans. Now that I'm older, I'm certainly not going to put myself into thousands of dollars of debt to get one. Why? Most companies are going to want to hire the youngs kids fresh out of college for much less than they'd pay an older person. What used to gall me was the hypocrisy. I remember VP wouldn't let JP or Sarah go into the corps until they finished college. I remember thinking, you b**t**d, you had thousand of kids give it up for the corps, but your own kids have to go to college. What's wrong with this picture? Then, of course, LCM puts his kids through school. If just going corps was good enough for all us who went corps, why wasn't it good enough for his kids? What do they need college for? Why wasn't LCM being a great inspirational example and walking the talk and making sure his kids did too. We were such suckers.

Shortfuse, I remember that letter. Early '80s maybe? He had a letter he used to write to all the corps every few months. In one of them, he talked about, how, if I have ever hurt any one of you I am truly sorry, and on and on, how much he loved his corps, etc. It struck me as very strange, since, as we all knew in the corps, VP never apologized to anyone for anything. That is the only time I ever remember any kind of apology from him. Too bad, since I never bought it. I figured their was some strange reason behind this, and realized he'd be yelling and being a prick to us corps again soon enough, like he always was.

I took a little sabbatical of reading the Bible after I left TWI. But as time went on, I went back - without TWI's notes, teachings, etc. What I found, for me, was that God was able to teach me so much more than I ever learned in TWI. I'd get a thought, an idea and follow it up. I read books by wonderful people like Tillich, Bonhoeffer (amazing man, executed by the Nazis in WWI), Merton, Lewis, etc. Over the years, I think I have seen much more how the OT is fullfilled in the NT, especially the Gospels and Revelation - oddly enough, the two sections VP never seemed too much interested in. I also, in TWI, used to wonder what Christians outside of TWI meant, when they talked about a "personal" relationship with Christ. I always had the feeling there was something missing regarding this aspect in TWI. Oh sure, we had God, but Jesus Christ was a named used at the end of a prayer. I always felt there was something more. Over the years, since I've been out, I now understand. Yes, TWI some some nice head knowledge going - we all admired it. But, it was the reality of the Bible, of Christ, that was never taught, because Christ was not the head in TWI, VP, the MOG was - since Christ was absent, the MOG became our mediator so to speak. Anyway, I would have to say, once the TWI biases and learning left and I was able to let the Holy Spirit work within - then yes, I have learned so much more and understand so much more than I ever did with TWI. Lately I've been musing on the concept that the Bible is fractal - infinite, a tiny deep reflection of God's mind. The deeper you look, the deeper it becomes. The concept of fractals is facsinating, fractal art is incredible. I'm glad I've lived long enough to grow enough to understand. I look back at what TWI has to offer now and it is pitifully inadequate.

I remember being at Emporia one day in the Library. At the bottom of one of the shelves was a very small little brown book. I picked it up, it was a small book by Bullinger. I forget the name now, it was on Job. I started reading and came across a chapter. I thought, I've read this before, where have I seen it? I realized it was in one of the collaterals. I looked through them, I forget which book, the orange one maybe. Anyway, there was a chapter called, Order My Steps In The Word, something like that. I sat down on my bed and compared them - it was virtually identical, word for word. I was so disappointed and stunned. I thought, how could he write this and say it was his??? This was written by Bullinger way before VP put it in his book. I didn't really know, or hadn't given much of a though to plagerism, but in my youthful naivete, I was shocked VP could have done something like that. I wasn't so trusting of him anymore, and started wondering where he got other things from. A year or so later, at HQ, I was friends with the official Way "Historian." I get this call from her. She was upset. She said VP had just given her a box of old paperwork, and there in the bottom was BG Leonard's original class syllabus from the class VP had taken. She said, you won't believe this, this is the exact syllabus as PFAL - everything, notes, charts - she was also stunned. That's when I told her about the chapter in the collateral. I know the JC our Promised Seed came originally, from the work an astronomer had done that VP had read on article on him somewhere. He kept writing books because it made money - they sold like crazy in the bookstore. I guess my point is, even though I didn't realize the seriousness of plagerism, a little bubble had been burst. I didn't see him as this MOG who had been taught by God since the first century anymore. It was a huge disappointment - he had lied to us. I guess it was a sense of betrayal - what other stuff really wasn't his and was he taking from other people? Obviously, he hadn't been taught by God personally, he was taking other people's writings and claiming that he had been taught these things by God, and I realized he hadn't been taught by God personally. Kind of downhill from there. If he could do that, what else was he lying about?

Hi HCW! I think we're on the same page here. I still remember you from HQ - we must do lunch someday! From what Jim told me, The Way West and The Way East were each their own separate entities. The agreement they made with VP was the money from the classes and ABS was to be used to for the work of the ministry in their own areas, for what was needed in NY or CA. What was left over was then sent to HQ. Yes, that was the meeting in CA when VP told them from now on, the money comes directly to HQ, and we will distribute it as we see fit, and The Way West and the Way East were dissolved and were now part of the Way. It was a massive betrayal, Jim felt. He felt terribly used.

Actually HCW, I beg to differ with you a bit as I was a "groovy Christian of Rye" and was at the fellowship when the Life photograher came to it and took the pics. The Way East was Steve Heefner's ministry. VP came to visit twice, between '70 and '71. Had an evening fellowship at Tim Bishop's house. I was at both of them. I know he made another visit later, after I had left NY. Heefner had been apart of the early Jesus Movement in CA with Jim Doop, Ted Wise, Chuck Martin and Lonnie Frisbee. Jim Dopp told me, in one of our incredible phone conversations about 2 months before he died, that when VP came to SF, he gathered those 5 men together and played the class for them. Wise, Martin and Frisbee said, see ya later after a couple of sessions. They would not work with him or become a part of his ministry. Heefner and Dopp finished, and were invited to HQ for the summer. They are the ones who won the people and ran the classes, and as it grew, let other high school kids run the class in their home (via audio) for all their friends. But, Heefner was in daily contact with everyone, their home was open to all, they were the overseers. The work done in CA and NY was done by Dopp and Heefner. The Heefners were an amazing couple. It was the book of Acts. Thousands of us teen got born again under their ministry. To us kids, VP and HQ, was this etherial place, out there somewhere in the middle of the country, sure, he came to see us, he had this awesome class (well, to our young minds at the time) but it wasn't at all about him. Our beloved leadership, the ones with the ministry to the kids, were the Heefners. I think, without the Rock to get the kids out to HQ, hardly anyone would have made the trek. VP sat back, watched it grow and after a couple of years, when it was big enough and he had some yes men who could take over, went out to CA and did the coup. Grabbed the Way West out from Dopp, and did the same with Heefner in the Way East. The Way East and the Way West became the Way and Moynihan took over in the east in NY. So, I really can't credit VP with doing too much work at all in the beginning. Once it got rolling, and his ducks were lined up, he stepped in and took over. I guess my point is, VP wasn't a trendsetter. This type of fellowship had been going on in California for a few years since the midd '60s, spread up the west coast, has heading to the midwest and hit the east coast. VP had nothing to do with it. I will say though, yes, the Magazine was definitely a good one. I think, since many of the media people in the NYC area live in the suburbs (its amazing the kids I went to school with, what their parents did - everyone thinks famous people in the arts, finance and media live in the City - they don't, they're in the suburbs) and their kids and kids friends were getting into TWI, someone at Life said, what's going on with our kids - go check this out. They obviously had contacted VP, because he was ready for his photo ops.