Sunesis

I look at GS as the body of Christ talking among ourselves - the way it should have been in TWI. It was for many of us, not like a college or school, but it was a total lifestyle, for me, from 15 to 33. It was our life. I've been on other sites, but to me, this feels like home. This is my herd, so to speak.

Yes, we were taught to watch out for devil spirits everywhere, weren't we? Oy Vay. Discerning of spirits. If I am with someone and I sense weirdness, something's off, or someone makes the hair stand up - a touch of evil. A shiver down the spine. I think God can warn us of people or situations to stay away from. On the other hand, a Christian. There is someone you meet, at work maybe and there's an instant affinity, a click, like you know them. I believe God can tell us when we're in the presence of another with his spirit. We do know each other - spiritually. Much more than that, I do not know.

After I had been out of TWI for awhile, this one hit me like a ton of bricks: He was in the world, and though the world was made through him the world did not recognize him. He came to his own, but his own did not receive him. John 1:10-11. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father full of grace and truth. John 1:14 After spending that day reading the Gospel of John, I got the impression, he had been somewhere else before he came to this earth. My other favorite: Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing... Phil. 2:6 And the one that summed it up for me: For in Christ all the fullness of the Diety lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ... Col. 2:9 All quotes from the NIV Study Bible (I just like the NIV, darnit).

Mark, I have looked at your website, its a great site, and I have read your article. I still respectfully disagree. Here's my take. I believe, as you do, the bodies of the dead know nothing, but I do not believe that this is speaking of the soul. Sheol, or Hades was the place of the conscious existence of the souls and spirits of all the dead, believers and unbelievers who died before the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. This hell had two compartments, torment and paradise with a great gulf between them, as Christ explained in the story of Lazarus. Thus Christ could tell the man next to him, today shalt thou be with me in paradise. When Christ descended after his death, it was a direct invasion of territory that Satan had considered as being his own. His arrival in hell and taking with him the souls of all believers - the firstfruits, emptying hell of the saints, reveals the nature of the spoil he took from Satan. Christ triumphed, it was a direct humiliation of Satan. This is why the Bible tells us, that up until this time, the devil had the power of death (Heb. 2:14). He was also in charge of the keys of death and hell (Rev. 1:18). The unregenerate are in his power and taken captive of him at his will (II Tim. 2:26). Before Christ's death, Satan had the keys, or the authority, so to speak over hell and the entrance to it, although it does not say he had any power in hell. Whatever his work in connection with fleshly bodies, the spirits and souls of the believers were never in his power and upon death were taken in charge by the angels and carried to paradise (Luke 16:22). The death of Christ destroyed or brought to nothing "him that had the power of death, that is the devil" (Heb. 2:14). Destroy doesn't mean annihiliation, but more like rendered harmless, useless, worthless. Thus, Christ made a public example of Satan and took the keys, or authority, by which Satan pretended to have authority over the righteous souls, and entering among them announced the freeing of those who had been detained in Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom. Their hearts must have thrilled to see the Saviour they had been waiting for, who was a promise, whom they had never seen, but whom they believed God's promise of a coming Savior, for whom they had died many of them, to finally actually see him coming for them. Now, before all the angels and creation of the universe was God's plan unfolded. Abraham's Bosom, or paradise was emptied and taken to heaven on the day of his resurrection. That's when he told Mary - don't touch me, I am not yet ascended to my Father. A few hours later he was back with the disciples saying, handle me. Not only had he used the "keys" of Hell to empty it of all souls of the believers, but he had locked that compartment (paradise, Abraham's Bosom) so that none of his would ever have to spend one moment away from him. Therefore, Christ could say I "have the keys of death and hades." (Rev. 1:17-18). Here was the fulfillment of his announcement concerning the Church that: The Gates of Hell should never prevail against it (Matt. 16:18). I.e., our bodies may rot, but our purchased, righteous souls, would never, ever descend into hell. Thus, when he ascended, "he led captivity captive" (Eph. 4:8) - death would usher all believers into his presence. We may not have our new bodies yet, but we are in his presence. That is why Paul could say, to be absent from the body would mean to be present with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8), and to depart would mean to be with Christ, which is far better (Phil. 1:23). We see Christ telling his disciples, "Do not be afraid of him of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt. 10:28). Christ also said, "I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him, who after killing the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you fear him (Lk. 12:5). We see our Lord made a definite distinction between the body and soul. We read about the "pit" all through the OT. It was a place of shame, of darkness, of gnashing of teeth, where they walk naked and others see their shame (Rev. 16:15), where the worm never dies. I do not buy VP's doctrine of "annihilation" or "soul sleep." If we truly have eternal life when we are born again, if when we die, our souls and spirits are extinguished, we truly do not have "eternal life." Because our eternal life dies when we do. That eternal life, the spirit that is in us, now dies. Thus, its not truly eternal, and you are saying we have to wait to get it back again, a second time. It wasn't really "eternal", was it?

Hi Mark, don't worry, I play nice :) Unless you get personal and want to insult me. Then I turn the other cheek and go play somewhere else:) I respectfully disagree with you on death. There too many verses to count, regarding death. I agree the body dies. But, God says he has set eternity in men's hearts (Ecc. 3:11 - I believe, I don't have my bible with me right now). There are too many verses about sorrow, gnashing of teeth, going down into the pit until the resurrection, etc. Christ's "parable" of Lazarus and the rich man - I believe there is a literal place souls who reject God go. When Christ descended, those in "Abraham's bosom" were ascended with him. The believer, when he dies now will be with him in heaven, yet they do not receive their "new" bodies until the gathering.

Great discussion. This pure blood, so to speak, blood is extremely important. We are told by God it cleanses, it crys out, and it atones. Why this is, we don't know. It is the way God set it up. Also, it is the one substance angels, spirit beings, and God's other creations, do not have. I believe Satan and his fallen ones would love to have a body. Thus, in Satanic worship and worship of other gods, spilled blood rituals are so important - another imitation of the True God and how he uses it. Plus, it is by the blood of the Lamb - Christ, that he was defeated for eternity. The perfect Blood. We know, that in order to "live forever" Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life, else, they would die. What was this tree? Something that kept their bodies cleansed? Was that tree the prototype of Christ? Is this why Christ said at the last supper, take, eat of ME? eat my flesh, drink my blood, do this in remembrance of me? i.e., I am the tree of life? When they "ate" from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, I believe something, a virus, whatever, something died, something was corrupted. We know they lost their holiness, their outer covering of spirit, that was probably magnificent - now they looked like other animals - that covering that was evidenced at the transfiguration, that we shall again someday have. They yearned for restoration. I've been thinking about it. I still tend to think that Christ's body was totally prepared by God, "a body thou hast prepared me." Heb. If he had had Mary's DNA - he would have been inheriting corruptible, fallen, flesh. Fallen flesh is not holy, it cannot stand in the presence of God, as Adam once did. Once Adam's flesh, blood was corrupted, he was no longer in God's presence because he was no longer holy and could not approach God. Also, the blood had to be pure, because, as satan had defiled God's heavenly temple during his fall, we read in Hebrews it was Christ's blood, when he ascended after his death, that cleansed the heavenly temple of this defilement in heaven - only his pure blood could do this. Sometimes we forget, God is Holy. When he created Adam, Adam was holy - he could stand in God's presence and commune with him. That was lost. We also see Christ, at the transfiguration, when Peter and 3 others were given a "sneak preview" of Christ in his glorified body. Corrupt flesh probably could not have withstood that. Both of his parents were of the line of the Aaronic priesthood, but the old order was now going to give into the new order of the new priest and King after the order of Melchesidic whose father was God. His flesh came through Mary, but I believe the "body thou hast prepared me" was of God. He was the new creation, the second Adam.

Jooyyyyy to you and me!

I started thinking about sinless blood why it was necessary to redeem mankind. This guy has an interesting article, scroll down, especially about the part of blood and Holy Spirit. I haven't fully read it yet, but it looks interesting and may contribute to the discussion. Its food for thought. http://www.newgateministries.com/jerusalem...a-of-jesus.html

I knew Branded was never going to win the country contest. People would get very upset with me at H.Q. when they asked what I thought. Why wouldn't they win? Because, when they won the Ohio state contest, they wouldn't travel all over the state play - like most bands do and are expected to do. They did what, 2, 3 or 4 gigs in a bar here and there? Ohio wants to see this awesome country band that won, but they won't go to the "natural man" people and play? What is wrong with them? When they were intereviewed on the radio, Harve was the spokesman, and of course, he had to "witness." So, you have a Jesus country band that only plays a few dates. I would imagine to the contest people it was pretty obvious they would not push and do what Wrangler would expect them to do if they won. VP always talked about "Word in culture" - but everytime there was a true opportunity, he always reined people in. This was no exception. I heard they came in 3rd or 4th, I think at the Nationals at the Opry. Of course, no one at HQ could believe they lost. Let's face it, the music biz, is and always will be about merchandise. Your product is your album. You tour to promote it, to sell it and to sell and t-shirts and other swag. VP would not have let them do that, and Wrangler certainly wasn't going to pick them if they wouldn't tour - I can almost guarantee you the judges gave them a good showing but knew not to pick them.

Interesting discussion. I'll throw in my 2 cents. We know, as far as self-aware, intelligent created beings, God has created 3 so far, with a fourth to come (I'm not talking our animal critter type friends here). Its the "Created" aspect I'm interested in here: 1. Angels - all types 2. Adam - Holy, in God's image, holy enough to be able to enter into God's presence - he fell. We can no longer enter into God's Presence. 3. Christ - the 2nd Adam - holy, able to stand in God's presence. 4. The New Creation to come (us someday - we shall be changed) - not here yet. Will live with Christ in God's presence. I have no problem with God creating Christ. If he truly was "The Son of God" he could not be the "Son of Joseph." His flesh, his "sinless" blood, must have been created by God. As the first Adam was created, so was the second. His "seed" or this package, came through David's line, but to truly be the "Son of God" - he must be - God's son. But, in order to be "perfect man" his blood - the perfect, uncorrupted, unblemished blood, unfallen blood - holy blood, the only perfect blood acceptable to be sacrificed to God - like the first man Adam's was - had to be "perfect." Thus, I think his flesh - was perfect like the First Adam's. I think God made the whole package. None of it came from Mary or Joseph. He came through her. He was the second Adam - his flesh was a new creation. Unblemished, unfallen - perfect. He was the unblemished sacrificial lamb to carry the weight of God's wrath and pure, thus acceptable, to be sacrificed for the sins of the world. Impure, fallen flesh and blood were not "holy" and thus, could not be an acceptable redemption for mankind.

Hello sweet Roy. I take Revelation literally. It is the total fulfillment of every OT prophecy. We are told at the end, it was written FOR the churches - for us. The revelation of Christ, what is about to come, his fullfillment of the OT prophecy - every jot and tittle. To me, yes the Bible has history, but it is a book of prophecy. To me, Revelation is a book of hope. I tend to think the 7 churches in the beginning is a history of Christianity, from the beginning, to its "marriage" to the world, to the revival in the Philadelphean church, to the state of it now, the Laodocean church. From whosoever calls on Christ, to the "if any" man seeks - i.e., how now today, so few are looking for a relationship with him. The Church isn't mentioned in the rest of the book, because they are with him - they are gone, it is his bride. Then we see his dealings with the Jews, and the world, the martyrs during the tribulation who will be his after believing the 144,000 men who witness, and the two witnesses Elija and Elisha - or whoever they are, who will witness to the world, and lastly, the 3 angels sent by God to warn the world not to take the mark. In God's love for people he will send more prophets, witnesses, and finally angels to turn men to him - to come, be a new, marvelous creation in the new kingdom - the ultra "evolutionary" step is offered. We also see God's wrath upon those who hate him and the beast. We see: All waters turned to blood. Why? The world and beast have shed the blood of the prophets, now they receive blood to drink. We see: mankind scorched by the sun. Why? They worshipped the sun (since Babylon) and other gods, now their gods are proven false. We see the 1000 year millenium. Man is given perfection, from the new supra abundance of the earth to total peace - what mankind has yearned for and has tried to achieve himself since the beginning. No war, all abundance - they now have what they have yearned for. Result? But, we see - even with perfection - he will still rebel. He will still rebel against God. Finally, we see the new heaven and earth, all restored to the original glory in Gen. 1:1. Why did God allow this all to happen? To show to all, from heavenly beings to earthly beings - that there is only one perfect, just will. When God created heaven, earth, life, angels, there was one will. All was perfection. When Satan fell, there were now two wills in conflict - result - disorder - death. When mankind fell, there are now billions of wills in conflict with each other and God - result? more of the same. Instead of wiping out Satan or man, creating new beings and have the same cycle continue for eternity, God has patiently allowed all of creation to see it play out and to know - there is only one perfect will, and all will know at the new creation of heaven and earth. I believe all will watch God do this new creation someday, it will happen before our eyes - and we will all know, who truly is the blessed creator and revel in his love and perfection. A great book on the topic is: Revelation by Donald Barnhouse. Its available on Amazon, you may enjoy it. So, to me, Revelation is a book of hope - death, destruction, chaos destroyed, perfection and harmony once more. No matter what happens, there is a new world coming.

Sounds good Jeaniam. Pleased to meet you :)

I think there's only one way we can truly love with agape. Romans 5:5 comes to mind: God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit whom he has given us. Or, as other versions translate it: The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom we have received. Renewed mind can't do it. We are human, we are not yet the new creation - we know not yet what we shall be. I like that phrase, the Love of God has been poured out in our hearts... Do we believe it? I think it has to be simple. How can I love those with whom I come in contact in my daily life? I look to do "random acts of kindness" when the opportunity presents itself. I think, instead of trying to do it ourselves, maybe we need to ask God to open the doors and show us how to do this. I think we may be surprised at what he shows us.

Kenyon has been a huge influence on these preachers, including VP. I find it interesting that Kenyon was a student of Mary Baker Eddy - I forget her name exactly, but - she was the founder of Christian Science. Christian Scientists believe in the power of their mind to receive healing, influence God, the magic of believing. Kenyon's book, the Wonderful Name of Jesus, when you reread it, how anything you say in his name must come to pass. Its almost like a magic mantra. So, I would say, most of these doctrines we have today come from her, and were lifted by the leaders in the pentacostal movement, which began in the mid-1940s after WWII. When the country started propering, the main group based in Tulsa, realized they could make much more money starting their own ministries - which is what they did, including VP who fellowshipped with these men. Today, we see that the same "magic of believing" law has now gone secular via the book - The Secret. Same thing but wrapped up with a bow for the secular, natural man audience. The author has made a fortune. I remember, years ago, after having left staff, still with TWI, I went to see a documentary on Christian fundamentalism. I was stunned at how all the ministries, large and small, across the country were carbon copies of TWI. The services, the order, the songs sung, the musicians, the teachings, what the people wore, what they believed, their phrases, etc. I later realized that TWI was really a carbon copy of these ministries on a small scale. VP had done his homework and knew exactly who to pattern TWI after. Since I had only been involved in TWI and thought we were the best and so unique - it was quite disheartening - we were just one of thousands - there was nothing really different - just a different leader. This made me start rethinking alot of things. Hmm, I should check out where Mary Baker Eddy got her ideas...

I think, when Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself, it was in a sense of, when I make an error or mistake or do something wrong, I know, that even though I did the wrong, I am still a decent person - I don't hate my whole being. We all, cut ourselves some slack so to speak. Thus, we can "love" our neighbor as ourselves - we may not like what he did, but we don't hate him. We still desire what is good for him. Agape can't be based on our human emotions. When we think of love, usually there's an emotion to it, we think of Phileo, affection or eros - it provokes a response in us. Whereas, I think Agape, is not based on our human feelings of "love." It is more of, greatly desiring the greatest good for that person or thing. You want to see the greatest good, or blessings happen to someone - as God does. You see through his eyes so to speak. C.S. Lewis wrote a great book on this called "The Four Loves." Available on Amazon. I think where we get hung up as humans is thinking its an emotion we're supposed to be feeling for those we do not know. Jesus wept for those who God had given him (Lazarus) and loved God's people, but knew what was in man's heart (wickedness) and did not give himself over to man, and was not all lovey-dovey to those who hated God - or towards the average Joe on the street. He healed them, willed their total healing and greatest good and had great desire for Israel to return to God, but he saved and opened his heart to his disciples - those closest to him. As for Christ turning the other cheek, the context is if you are insulted. He also told us to hate evil. We are to be wise as serpents, harmless as doves. I think it sometimes comes down to, do unto others as you would do to yourself.

This is why I would dread "the Word over the world" in a religious sense. The church at that time, married itself to the world, so to speak. Civil and religious law were one. Hey, if one's going to burn in hell anyway, why not torture him now - who cares, we're doing God a favor. I also note, 3/4s of the people killed or tortured were women. It was a disgraceful time in Christian religious history. But I must ask myself, were these "leaders" really Christians? I suspect not. The adversary using religion to kill those who were. The reformation finally threw off the yoke of this so-called "christianity." This is why the religious right scares so many americans, including Christians. What really can you say about the inquisition? The same evil behind it, I almost think in our modern time is behind the extremist Islamic movement - I really see no difference between the two.

Satori - LOL - you posts were a riot! Probably dead on too, it does make sense. In a strange way, the poodle did threaten his masculinity. Can't have a manly Harley biker dude with a little poodle following faithfully at his heels, can you? Yes, I have a feeling one of the maintenance/motorcoach guys would know what happened to little Coco.

Hello sweet Roy. Humans tend to think of "love" as an emotion. Thus, God's love, must therefore be emotional. I would say, spiritual love (agape) is wanting what is the absolute best thing for the object loved, whether its God loving a butterfly, doggie or human. It is not based on emotion. Affection, brotherly love, and erotic love are emotional - these are human loves. They are not agape. I believe God is creative, intellect, mind - spirit, which our finite minds cannot conceive of. We can observe scientifically the natural world, but the world outside of the natural is not observable to us - yet. Was Christ's love emotional sometimes - yes. The living life wept at Lazarus' death, the disciple leaning on his breast, etc. But, that is not the question, you asked about God, not Christ.

I believe a conscience is something inherent in man, it was part of the image of God man was created in and is a gift of God. T-Bone, as for a world of people with no conscience, I imagine the days of the Nephilim would count, before Noah's flood, or, in modern days, it would be literally a world of Ted Bundies and Jeffrey Dahmers running around. I read somewhere that the estimates are 20% of people are psychopaths - ie, without conscience. You don't have to take it as far as my previous two examples, but after working in the law for 20 years - I routinely see lawyers without conscience. First, you kind of wonder what's wrong with them, then you realize they have no empathy or concern for anyone, but have a charming public facade. But its not just lawyers. I call people like that "defects." Not in a mean way, but in the sense that there is something truly missing, a defect in the mind so to speak. Most people pick up on them pretty quickly. They can also be the nicest people. I imagine in the tribulation we will see them run unchecked, since there will be no Holy Spirit restraining evil anymore.

I think those losers did a pretty good job of coming up with the Bible as we have it. If you are someone who happens to believe the Bible, maybe you should quit reading it since it was cannonized by those losers. How could you possibly trust it - those losers were probably influenced by Satan. Or, maybe we should grudgingly thank them for doing a pretty good job. Although, personally, I would have included the Book of Enoch in the OT. He's quoted quite a bit by the NT guys - everyone from the OT and NT had read it. Although the head jews (whom Christ called the seed of Satan) destroyed it, and then the catholics later destroyed any copies they could find, God kept a couple of copies hidden until the nearing of the end times for our learning. It really puts a lot of things together. Ever read The Confessions [diary - for us modern people] of St. Augustine? There was an early church father who was an amazing, wonderful Christian. I would have loved to have known him. His journey from aethist to church father.

Hi Belle, I know, the gospels weren't written until later. I guess I'm talking in context that they did not have the Gospels and epistles to read in the early first century, although the apostles (peter, paul, john) did write letters. Those who wrote either had been with him, or were close to those who had been with him. As time went on, there were so many people claiming to have been with him, or friends of those who were, writing different letters, bringing in different doctrines, it became imperative to gather and keep those writings of those who were closest to Christ - those who had the "true" so to speak, doctrine. Thus, in the NT, you have Paul, Peter, John, Timothy and Titus, Paul's close associates, James - the Lord's brother, John of Revelation. Although, the more I understand prophecy, the more I see how amazingly the whole Bible is and how it does fit.

So, I guess we know who the closet trinitarians are here :) Us Chalcedon compliants!

I don't tend to look at the Bible as a history book. I see it as a book of prophecy. Seen in that light, its astounding.

I am not a catholic, and never have been and certainly never will be. There were too many cults, disagreements, gnosticism, etc. going around very shortly after Christ's death. That's why it was imperative to be instructed by those who had been with him and knew him personally. In the early church, only those who had been with Christ, or later, those who had been with those who had been with him and so on were considered authorities. Of course there is bound to be politics when you get religious people together. The point is, those early church fathers kept Christianity from becoming an irrelevant cult and/or dying out altogether. You may hate them, but good did come from them also.

You also need to understand, that "apostolic succession" was very important in the early church. In order to keep the doctrine, pure and uncorrupted, in the early church, they listened to the apostles - those who had been with Christ personally, and of course Paul, who saw him. This was important because, let's say, I didn't like the way your fellowship was running, I could write an epistle, and say it was from Paul, or Peter, or whoever - i.e, palm myself off as one of the originals, to get people to do what I thought was best. There were hundreds of these fake epistles written over time. It was terribly important, as the apostles died, for the next generation of leaders to have known these original men, who walked with Jesus. Apostolic sucession kept the "true" doctrine - as best they knew it, alive. There is a reason for councils, etc. To debate what was correct and what wasn't. To keep the church from corruption. Your mockery denotes your ignorance. Maybe you should do your own study, read some books outside of TWI, get a background of what was happening instead of following in VP's ignorant footsteps and mocking.