Sunesis

Well, in that teaching by VP, I love when he gets to "flee ye youthful lusts" part and then states, well, I don't think its particularly sexual... [Duh! Of course he doesn't - then he'd actually have to do the Word] and then goes on to state its talking about wanting materials things. Yeah, right. Take the sex out of it, gloss over it, and then say wanting material things is lust, yet he fails to remove the beam from his own eye with his kingdom, which was chock full of toys and possessions. What a hypocrite.

Hey Yid, newbie, you know nothing of Juedes? Why are you so ignorant? If you want to know, why don't you go to his site and read about him? Or, why don't you take the time to do a search here? He's come on here, given his credentials and talked to whom ever wanted to talk to him. Why don't you go ask him those questions yourself????? So, which group are you with - Geer's or are you still in TWI? Your self-righteous, smug, nastiness gives you away. Which group are you with? We've got Geerites and innies here who love to spew their poison over simple discussions. Since you are the same ilk, which group are you? Don't lie and say you've been out for years and are not affiliated with anyone.

Interesting thoughts Dan. Although, one of the first things I mused about after leaving TWI was also the incarnation - I finally understood it, in that regard, sure, go ahead, call me a trinitarian if you want :) I really do believe there is a distinction between Christ, where he is now and what he is doing, and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter he sent to us. Christ is God's heart, the head of the Universe, the High Priest and King, the head of the body, our groom and the one to whom Judgment will belong. The Holy Spirit, or Comforter is in this world now to convict mankind, individuals. I believe all men at some point must make a choice, to believe or not. Those who have never heard but love God, when Christ is revealed, will say, yes - that's who I was looking for. But, anyway, the Holy Spirit convicts and leads men to a choice about God. Those who accept Christ, he dwells within. We are "sealed" by him, in the same way the blood over the doorpost sealed the Jews in Egypt from the angel of death. We are sealed and spared the wrath to come. The other thing the Holy Spirit does is teach us. It dwells in the world and in us. Its not just upon a select few anymore. When we are gathered, I think it will revert to what it did in the OT, upon a few. People will be able to believe Christ and will die as martyrs for him, but they will not be "born again" so to speak. I did a word study once on apokolypsis - apokoloypse, years ago. It was amazing to note, that Christ's role now, today, as the risen One, is the "revealer" the apokalypse (sic). I do believe VP did get this right (ok, calm yourself Oldies) when he said God reveals to Christ who teaches your spirit. I believe Christ reveals God's heart to us via the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is how Christ also is with us. The spirit is the conduit, so to speak, to our mind. It teaches us. Like say I'm reading a scripture and suddenly - OMG - its awesome, I've never seen it like that. I think Christ says to the Spirit, go ahead, reveal it to her. The Spirit is the river that carries Christ to us in our physical body - mind. I know I can pray to Christ and he hears and delivers, but I would not pray to the Holy Spirit - two distinct things.

Oldies, you need to learn about the Book of Revelation and the churches. And the end, where we are specifically told that Revelation is "written for the church." I'll take the Spirit's word instead of yours. Also, I know VP publically told us, we did not need to study it. In case someday you'd like to venture out, Revelation, by Donald Barnhouse, available on Amazon, is probably one of the best books you will ever read on it. I know, of course, if it isn't a VP/TWI sanctioned book, you will most likely ignore it, or, if you decide to read it, you may find yourself incredibly blessed.

I believe God knows all. He inhabits eternity. I used to wonder how the "eternal present" (to paraphrase St. Augustine) worked. As I mused, I thought of this. I closed my eyes and thought of something in my past from childhood. I then thought of something I had planned and would be doing in the future. As I sat there in the present, where was I? I was in the present. I had also been in the past and in the future, while in the present. Its remotely similar I think to how God operates - in the eternal present yet knowing all.

Hmm, that's a very good question. The distinction between Christ in you, and Christ among you, would have massive repercussions for TWI people. Christ tells us in Revelation he "walks among the churches." Thus, he is among us today - here and present and always has been. He is not absent or missing, he walks among his kids and Church today as the Head. We know we have holy spirit within us. We are sealed with the holy spirit of promise. It is in us, it is our "token" - our portal to eternity and a New, coming kingdom and our guarantee of entrance into it and that in order to enter into it, we will be new creations (awesome!). Now, I think the problem is: Is "Christ in you" the same as having "holy spirit" in you? I don't think they are. If its Christ in you, and holy spirit in you, then you have two separate spiritual things living in you because Christ and the comforter, i.e., the holy spirit which he promised to send, are two distinct beings. So we know this can't be correct, we don't have two distinct beings in us. If, in the greek, it truly is Christ among you, well, then it fits. We have holy spirit in us, and Christ walks among us and guides us. Then, we see, the ministry VP built on this phrase - this one main, major phrase, the mantra we chanted over and over - its Christ in you, Christ in you - is totally in error. Talk about a mega-error. Dan, I guess we were posting at the same time. Great post :)

Hmmm..... The attacks didn't work The insult didn't work gotta shut 'er up somehow - Hey, I know! Let's yell at her!!!! "WHY DON'T YOU SEE THAT?" (geez, she must be dumb as a rock!) Oh yes - that'll do it for sure :)

There's Larry - hmmm.... the attacks didn't shut her up Hey, gotta shut 'er up somehow Hey, I know!!!! Let's insult!!!!!

Yup, and here's newbie Larry - attack, attack, attack, gotta shut 'em up - attack, attack. Like I said, an influx of attack newbies - its not a coincidence.

I think you had an influx after the CES debacle. Many say they left TWI years ago, but if pressed you will find during those years they have been with CG, or other groups. Thus, you still see the same VP and PFAL worship. They never really left, just went to a different group. They are still waybrained. I think you also have a group of Geerites and TWI innies who decided they were going to come in here and derail, mock, and give those who are not in love with TWI or VP, a very hard time. Now, they are going so far as to suggest those who don't agree with them are possessed, have devil spirits, a spirit of error, etc. (and is always a dead giveaway they are involved in a TWI spin off). The person doesn't like someone's opinion? Well, hey, they must be possessed. And from what I've seen of them over time, I believe its calculated. It seems a lot of people have suddenly showed up who do not want to share our sense of community, do not want to read the sticky's and get a sense of this place, they just want to lord it over others - throw out massive reproof. Over time, I pretty much know who they are, so I ignore them now. New folks who are really getting out and want answers, or want to share and are not here to stir up strife, are always welcome, I love chatting with them, but I'm with Tonto, why waste time with people who just want to endlessly debate, who endlessly question, proving they really learned nothing in all of VP's classes, and in the end accuse people of having spirits. For you newbs - this is not a "Christian" website. It is an ex-TWI site. There is a difference, reading is fundamental. If you want to praise your "father in the word" and only speak worship and praise of him, go, start your own site.

With all the questions being thrown out by a few people here, its as if they are trying to trick, trap and denigrate God's kids here just like the Pharisees did. What profit are these endless questions, constantly asked over and over by a few certain people here which are only designed to bait and trap, which are designed for a "gotcha" moment? Why do some people here feel they must denigrate and make God's children look like fools? Why do they feel they must war against God's children? Maybe you should do a little research on foolish questions and see what the Bible has to say about them. For some who profess to know God and his Word and have all the answers via PFAL, TWI and VP, you come off as unbelieveably ignorant and as babes needing milk. There are some great books on Amazon, especially one on the History of Christian Thought, by Paul Tillich, whom VP liked a lot - its a VP approved author. Maybe do a little reading and get some eduction from a source outside of TWI. Quite straining at gnats and going round and round and round and round and putting words and ideas (so, are you saying...) in people's posts that they did not say. Or are people really just this obtuse?

Aw shucks T-bone, Tonto and Wordwolf Thank you for your kind words. Dan, it amazes me too, the ridicule of a relationship and communion with our Lord, Jesus Christ, by the Sons-of-God-with-all-Power folks. I really never thought I'd see born again believers call a relationship with Christ evil, by saying that such a relationship is communing with the devil. They should be on their knees asking Christ's forgiveness for their hardness of heart and hubris for having the audacity to call Christ's relationship and communion with his children evil and devilish. Accusing, other Christians whom they do not know, of having a relationship with the devil and not Christ. That is evil - truly. It is hateful and hurtful. May God have mercy on their souls.

You know Oldies, I am sorry I opened my heart up to you. I never expected such a brutal response. It will never happen again.

Oldies - its between you and God. No one can answer "how" for you. You need to ask him to teach you - and he will, if you are sincere. Are you ready to go outside the box??? Are you ready to totally give your life and heart to Christ? In exchange, he will give you his life and heart. Are you ready to look to Him, and Him only, instead of VP, PFAL, the "Word" according to VP? What would happen if you communed with Christ every day, with just him for a month or two, let him teach you, leave everything else alone for awhile? Will you commune and talk to HIM? Or will you ignore and bypass Him - God's Heart - and think you aren't allowed to talk to and commune with Him, only with God? I realized in TWI, yes, I knew about his resurrection and power and had lots of knowledge, but I did not know HIM. I knew lots about Him. I did not know him. I asked him to reveal himself to me. That's all I could do.

Oldies, I could offer you much regarding Christ that was not taught in TWI and was and is taught outside of TWI. Sadly, at this point, it would be a waste of time. If its not in TWI, you have abolutely no interest. To you it would be nonsense, cheap shots, ludicrous, and all the other things you've called information posted by many posters here, not just by me. You are not ready yet to learn anything about Christ, God or the Bible unless it was taught by VP, came from him, and was taught by TWI. To you its all VP and TWI. You are extremely sold out to that. I always used to wonder about other Christians' relationship with Christ, they talked about it in such a personal sense. I knew we were missing something in TWI. It wasn't until I was able to get outside of the TWI box, that God graciously allowed me to see, understand, and know his Son and to understand what a "relationship" with him means - I finally understood what those other Christians were talking about - thank God. I am grateful he in his mercy let me live long enough to know and understand, at least a small portion. It dwarfs TWI's version. Christ is God's heart, given to us. You will not learn him in TWI or VP's teachings. TWI gave lip service to him, but cut God's heart, his gift to us - Christ - out of the picture. Until you get out of the VP/TWI worship zone, you will not "see what it actually consists of and what they are actually talking about." This is why I feel TWI did such great disservice to God's people. Its truly sad, because I have a feeling you want to know more, but you are terrified to go there if it isn't VP sanctioned.

You really need to tone down your obvious hatred for me Oldies. People have said much "worse" then me and you're all respect. If you cannot respect my views and refute them nicely, then don't comment. You've had this problem ever since I used a phrase you didn't like a few years ago. Your hatred of me is quite obvious. Don't bother responding to me if you can't do it respectfully.

And what is so awesome is that we too are now in this "family" - this new kind of being. We too will someday be this "new kind." It will be way beyond what we can imagine. Way beyond any kind of evolution. We will be a totally new kind - as he is now, so shall we be. As he was at the transfiguration when he appeared to Peter and the others in his glorified body - so shall we be. Peter's mind was blown when he saw that and he mentions it quite a bit. What ever it will be - it will be awesome.

Dan, I also believe blood is sacred. The spirit realm does not have it, we do. I think that is why you see so much "blood sacrifice" in ancient pagan religions. We are told blood cleanses, covers, thus we see the correct, "godly" sacrifices made by the Jewish people in the temple - not the counterfeit sacrifice and spilling of innocent blood devilishly used in pagan religions, as we've seen through history. Why it is sacred? Only God knows. It cries from the ground when spilled. When Christ ascended, his blood cleansed the inner temple that had been polluted by Satan when he fell, he went to "prepare a place" for us in the heavenlies. His blood cleanses us, covers us, and allows us into the new kingdom that is coming. His blood was that perfect and precious. I too, after I left TWI finally understood the "incarnation" for lack of a better word. Christ is not "God" almighty, but that essence of which God is - was in him. Picture a block of shining silver. Now picture an edge chipped off. That chip is what was in Christ - the essence of God, in him. We walk around with a soul, he walked around with God in him - the essence. You are right Dan. Since Christ was a only man with the holy spirit, as VP taught, TWI essentially taught, that if we only renewed our minds enough we could be like him. All we had to do was renew our mind. I disagree. If all it took was a fleshly, albeit, perfect man with spirit to redeem us, Moses or any of the prophets could have done it long ago. Man's redemption required more than flesh. VP totally negated Christ's divinity. Christ is so much more than we were ever taught. VP with his adamancy that JC is not God, his ridicule of it, basically closed TWIers minds to the immense greatness of Christ - whether you are a trinitarian or not. Either way, some things are a mystery, a paradox, that our minds, no matter how brilliant cannot comprehend. We were done a massive disservice by VP's black and white, and misinformed ridicule laden teaching in this area.

I remember reading somewhere, that Mr. Wade shared that after working with VP for awhile, and ABS was coming in, one day VP acquired a new Harley. Once it was realized it came out of the ABS money, Mr. Wade left. He did not agree VP should be buying new toys out of ABS. That is what I read, I do not know if its correct, I think it was on Waydale years ago.

I had a few by my WC coordinators occassionally, but the one that really "woke me up" so to speak was one DM gave me when I was a WC grad on staff at a Way property when she and LCM were visiting this campus. Out of the blue she cornered me one day and started going off on me. I had never seen her this way before. She started repeating things the wife of the corps coordinator had told her about me. Now the wife and I had never gotten along - we just did not like each other from day 1 when she arrived there. I guess what stunned me was how wrong - absolutely wrong - it was. I was stunned - this woman had made up stuff about me and worse, DM believed every word. When I would try to defend myself, DM got even more adamant. I finally realized, just shut up and I let her go on and on. I was incredibly disapointed and amazed DM had believed this neurotic nutcase's lies. Even worse, DM did not believe me. After that, what could I do? I was devastated. But, it was also a huge wake up call - it really woke me up and I realized, what I thought were my "spiritual" leaders were not too spiritual at all. In fact they were downright a****oles and the "top hotdogs" were not to be trusted. It was the beginning of the end for me with TWI. After that, sure, I could be friendly with leadership, but I never trusted them again. I kept my distance. My life was none of their business. I never forgot that and it was an incident that when added to others gave me an impetus to leave when I finally did. Face meltings - more like satanic attacks in my book.

I've never been comfortable with the slain in the spirit and other things. For me, I have to look at the example of Christ. When he taught, did he shake, and have ecstatic experiences in front of the crowd? Did he knock them down? When he taught, did the crowds fall down, roll, bark, shake, etc.? The only time he dealt with barking or out control people, he threw the devil spirit out and people found the person calm, and in their right mind. But they were calm, not shaking or rolling after being ministered to by the Lord. Look at the Son of God, Christ, God's heart to us. I think our answer lies there.

West Side.

Thanks for your answers Georgio. You said none of his peers would have a shot, I am really curious, why is that?

Some serious questions here, not wanting to stir anyone's pot. If Brit Money was so privileged, why then has he been chosen by his peers to be the next king? He got the good food, his "rebellion" in the corps was overlooked because of who his parents were, so he was cut slack where anyone else would have been thrown out, he got to go to college, he's not considered a truly "nice guy" by some, etc. Is it because they're used to him being so special that by default it means it should be him? Is it because of who is parents are? I'm sure there are others of his peers who can bring much more to the table. Have his peers really thought about why it should be him? Or are they just used to following. So, is it just habit, or is there something truly amazing about him that his peers feel he should be the next president?

Well, I was wondering, if Brit Money was so privileged, why then has he been chosen by his peers to be the next king? He got the good food, his "rebellion" in the corps was overlooked because of who his parents were, so he was cut slack where anyone else would have been thrown out, he got to go to college, etc. Is it because they're used to him being so special that by default it means it should be him? Is it because of who is parents are? I'm sure there are others of his peers who can bring much more to the table. Have his peers really thought about why it should be him? Or are they just used to following. So, is it just habit, or is there something truly amazing about him that his peers feel he should be the next president?