Sunesis

They've also got lawsuits against Charles Darnell and Mr. Gilmore. If you're a lawyer you can look up lawsuits on the huge search engines. I had a lawyer look them up on LEXIS, I think it was. They've been suing and have been sued, for years. We were just never told about them.

Garth, your frothing at the mouth response, your insinuating and reading things into my posts that I never thought, much less said - geez dude, you went totally off the deep end. You have an amazing hatred of God. That's cool, we all know that. I could care less what you believe. But I can't discuss with you when you go nuts like that.

I don't recall the Book of Revelations being mentioned here. That point is moot. Start a thread on it if you want. We're talking about man's evolution here. I said man has free will. Why are you talking about it being wrong for people to want to determine their own destiny? Do you think its wrong? Where did I say it is wrong for man to want to determine his destiny? Quote please. Two times here you have attributed to me words, thoughts or ideas that I did not bring up or discuss. Knock off the strawmans. Start your own thread on destiny or Revelation if you want. But right now, you are being dishonest Garth. As to your other points. 1. Many countries still have kings and dictators. Many on the political forum stand up for these dictators. That idea of divine "right" and/or might is still alive and well. Maybe couched in different terms. 2. Mentally ill people going from possessed to what we know is chemical disturbances, is a scientific advancement. But if you've ever spent time in a hospital, some of the modern cures are just barbaric and horrendous as anything that came before. Sure, I have never denied there hasn't been scientific advancement. People are smart. Technology, science and medicine evidence that. That doesn't mean man has "evolved." 3. The elimination of slavery? Slavery is still alive and well in many places of the world, Africa, Asia and other places. Oddly enough, the places where it was abolished were the western "Christian" nations. Slavery will always be with us. 4. There are many places all over the world where women are property and do not have the right to vote and are treated as chattel. Your four examples have described mainly western, Christian or today's modern post-Christian societies. Many other societies are oppresive, nasty, miserable places. 200 million people, give or take, killed in the 20th century alone. That's a scant 108 year timeframe. Tell me again how we've "evolved."

I also think "religion" is not the cause of Elitism nor the cause of separation of humanity. Humanity has separated itself into groups for millenia and will continue to do so. Whether its politics, ideologies, tribes, nations, sports, government (which is more important - the state or the individual?), science, education, race, whatever, there has always been people separating themselves from others and they will continue to do so. Every man has free will. Every man is to himself his own god. Today, you have 6 billion or so individual free wills running around doing their own thing. In order to get mankind to submit, or, to all "think as one" you must use force and violence, or it will never happen. I do not believe groupthink, and mankind thinking as one is a good thing. The majority is most of the time wrong. I do not believe mankind will ever bring about utopia or harmony on earth. Someone will always disagree about something. It has become fashionable, and an easy way out, over the last decade or so, to blame all of the world's ills on "religion." I blame it on man.

Well, if starting a new thread calling me - or at least insinuating - that I am an Elitist is not an "attack" - I don't know what it. All I am saying is, you are not preaching "Christianity." I am sorry if that offends you. But it has nothing to do with "Elitism." Nor am I an "elite" person in life, deed or thought. You say mankind has progressed. Yes, you are correct, technology wise, he has - amazingly. Knowledge has increased. But, as far as "mankind" in general progressing, the 20th century was the bloodiest, with more people killed in that century than almost all of history put together. We have not "evolved" spiritually. We've made up stuff, started a whole bunch of new religions/cults/beliefs, etc. That doesn't mean we've evolved. You can look at mankind your way, I will look at mankind my way. We need to agree to disagree. I am sorry you did not like my opinion on your constitution. I also suggested you may be interested in studying "apostasy" - it was an eyeopener for me and may possibly be for you. It has nothing to do with an "elite" mindset. May I also suggest that the finger you are pointing at me, you have several pointing back at yourself.

Patrick and Sara, re: your mother's Christian beliefs. The Bible says we are a fallen race. We are not inherently good. The world will not get better, in the last days, perilous times will come. You cannot raise yourself up. Sure, you can be smart, intelligent, etc. But that does not make you "holy" in God's site. Christ must raise you up. But, because you say this is your mother's Christian belief, and you do not believe it, Then, you not Christian? sorry, I thought you were. If you are not Christian, then your article is excellent. If you are Christian, I was pointing out where I disagreed. You sound very theosophy/New Age/Rudolf Steiner, with Jesus thrown in for good measure. New Age/New thought with Jesus thrown into the mix does appease those who consider themselves christian. With your belief in the "magick" of believing - that your mind can change reality (in TWI we called it believing, today it is repackaged and called "the Secret" - nothing new, the same old, same old in a new package), that we are all one, all will eventually be in Christ, you believe in the now/present, yet do not have the hope (future) - which is what Christians long for, if after all this you call yourself "Christian," I would say, on the contrary. Here we have "Apostasy." Apostasy is a fascinating to research and see what the Bible has to say. But, if this belief works for you, go for it. Someday I hope you will understand Christ though.

Well, its nice. A lot like we used to write in high school during the hippie days striving for peace in the world. Its written by a young person. I see it as a humanistic treastise. If I wrote it I would change two things: 1. I will never have "faith in the goodness of mankind." I do not believe mankind is inherently good. I believe we are a fallen race. 2. I will never "hope" in humans or humanity. You will be sadly disappointed down the road. Other than that, what's not to like? Good job.

Danny, you can always tell someone is an innie, or associated with one of the TWI hateful, self-righteous, legalistic offshoots. Here are the mindless phrases that give them away. They say these about those who are not with TWI or their offshoots so they don't have to use their brain and think about what has been said: 1. They're BITTER. 2. They're ANGRY 3. They're "FULL OF HATE." What BS. They sound like the devil's accusers - hmmm, maybe they are. Oh wait - maybe this is a word of prophecy they have received from Swatratra?

WD, I could care less what you think. Your opinions mean nothing since you have no clue what you're talking about most of the time. You have only one mantra: Its not true, its not true, its not true, did you hear me???? Its not true, its not true, theyr'e all liars, they're all liars, they're all liars. You're a troll with Geer's group, or a TWI innie and you have only one mission on this board: To derail every thread you touch with your mantra of: Its not true, its not true, listen to me everyone, its not true, its not true, they're liars. You're schtick is old, we all have your number now. When you hear something from someone who was there and helped people, something you said - wait for it - its not true. Gee, who woulda thought - WD says its not true. You are calling DWBH a liar. Prove it to us, what did he says that was not true? You obviously don't have the intellectual capacity to read, and thoughtfully answer his post to you. Keep trolling babe. Maybe you can come up with a new mantra, this one's wearing thin. You're not worth decent people's time. I've fixed your sig: Poop from the Dove.

Welcome aboard Tex. I was also a "groovy Christian of Rye." I can't wait to read your book. This is a wonderful place for healing, talking, making sense of - what the heck happened, etc. Your story and thoughts and opinions are welcome here.:)

You know WD, after DWBH's heartfelt sharing, someone who was with VP, LCM and the BOT every day for years and months - and, unlike you - did his best to help the victims of these men, got them counseling when needed and help - You come back with that pathetic little one line answer? What sexual victim of VP or LCM's did you ever help? Yeah, we know, NONE. You're a bunch of hot air. Who are you to talk? After listening to you spew, trust me honey, no one would ever confide in you. Meh - you're not worth anyone else's time here. We just see you for what you are, the little troll. Say hi to your handlers at, hmmm - I'd guess you're a Geerite. They're the nastiest, most legalistic, most deluded bunch out there - true case studies of ones whos "love has waxed cold." Meh.

Good for you Nero! You're young and have your whole life ahead. You will make new friends, life will go on, your family will come to terms. I would imagine you were ready and willing to move on and God has worked in you - he is showing you the TWI rut they are unfortunately stuck in. Hang in - it will get better. How's Dad doing?

Swatratra = LOL!!! If this wasn't real I'd think it was an awful joke. I was in her corps, how did I miss this, and the tape and VP playing it? Oh well, glad I did. That poor lady somewhere in MO..... Thanks DWBH for all your sharing with us.

I thought the whole ministry knew. I know my relatives and friends on the field - non corps, were all "stocking up." Believers sold their homes, bought huge supplies of grain, etc. I think in some parts of the country everyone knew. Maybe it depended what state you were in and what the leadership in that state decided people should or shouldn't know. I remember everyone, not just corps, was talking about it and preparing.

LOL!!! Kesey - good one Ham!

C.S. Lewis, Watchman Nee, Donald Barnhouse, Paul Tillich (his book on Christian history is fascinating), Thomas Merton, Black Elk, Deitrich Bonhoeffer and lately - Soren Kierkegaard - he was a prophet without honor in his own land, great writings. I also like fun and whacked out writers regarding Nephilim, Book of Enoch, Sitken, what are UFO's - really, Pangea - things to read about when I want light, little thought, hmm - that's interesting - could it be?? stuff.

And why did we think we needed to have all the answers? I'm so glad I'm allowed to be stupid now :) I now see the Bible as a book of prophecy, not a science book, a self-help book, or something with every answer in the world in there. I remember when I decided to leave. I was standing on a sidewalk in NYC going somewhere. I stopped, made the decision, and felt like a weight of TWI inflicted bondage and legalism was lifted off me. I was free. I like being able to say, I don't know, look it up on Wikipedia :)

All those people in CES/STFI who had dreams and visions before 9/11 How is that any different from all the psychics who got the same info? I am beginning to think this personal prophecy is just medium/clairvoyant/fortune telling, but with a new name just for gullible Christians - personal prophecy I do not believe it is from God. I believe the same spirits who channel and possess mediums so they can give their "word" are the same spirits giving the "personal prophecies." Sorry if its harsh, but look at the prophecies, look at the results, look at the fruit. It reminds me of the 2nd church in the Book of Revelation (which is written for us to learn from) - they have gone the way of Balaam - i.e., embracing false prophets and prophecies of demons in their fellowship. Its right there in Revelations. It happened in the church of Pyrgamos - and in many today. Christ says "Repent." Repent - its serious. CES/STFI needs to get this evil out of their midst. If not, it will die the same slow death as TWI. God does not want any of his led astray from him and Christ, into this.

Yes, sounds like she was being polite. Johnny, I have a couple of Jacksons - they're awesome - flat necked shred guitars for lead and metal players. Even the inexpensive ones have those great necks. Another great neck is the Ibanez "wizard" necks on the RG and S series.

Tom, yes, I gave Excie the info, she found it and posted it on another thread that was around the time as this original one. She gave the pic, book title, and the page text for all to read. :)

My brother and his wife were at VP's funeral or whatever it was they did for him. They had always been friends with her. They went over to give their condolences. They said something like, I'm so sorry, and she looked at them and said, "he was a mean man." They were stunned and didn't quite know how to respond to that. It took both of them by surprise - this is not what you expect the grieiving spouse to say at a funeral/memorial. Who knows, maybe now that he was gone she felt free.

During my time in TWI, since the minstry of "Apostle" was taken by VP (which meant, of course, that no one else could have that one), for some strange reason, the minstry of a "prophet" was always highly coveted. It was the ministry to have. The other ones paled sides the mighty prophet. Why was that? Also, pastor was usually relegated to the women Revs. in TWI, or, if you were an unusually sensitive (i.e., sweet, wimpy) guy, then you were one too. So, pastor was usually a woman's ministry in TWI, so, no status having that one. I know LCM, DM and RR considered themselves prophets and prophetesses. It seems to me to be nothing but an ego trip. I have met only one true prophet in all of my years I was with TWI. And I only knew that because as the person was talking to me the word prophet flashed in my mind's eye like on a movie screen. Oddly enough, it was a very quiet, mild-mannered female, who happened to be a wonderful person, was never ordained, yet the BOT, VP and others would quietly go to her for advice. Of course, they did their own thing anyway and she hated being on staff and eventually got the heck out of Dodge. But prophet seems to be the one everyone wants. Seems people would rather follow the prophet, even if he/she leads them off a cliff, rather than follow Christ. What do you need Christ for if you can just go hear from the prophet? Does CES/STFI even preach Christ anymore? Interesting.

Thanks for your kind words DWBH earlier. I don't know who you are, but you're obviously an "old timer" who's perspective I think we all appreciate. Well, that last question was a doozy and the answers were interesting. John S - buy our books. I don't know Dan so I won't comment. John L. - The golden boy who's daddy's $$$$ bought him high status in VP's eyes and in TWI. The man who's probably never had a "real" job, pretty much had things handed to him. I never thought he was particularly "spiritual," no more than anyone else. What I find sad is, for him to blithely still insist that they have the "best" package going, even after their package destroyed his marriage, almost toppled their ministry, resulting in and leading to lawsuits - well, I think he's delusional. Denial is a river in Egypt. I see there is still blatent worship of "our father in the Word's" teachings, its just been repackaged, with some prophecy thrown in. If he were serious (along with the other leaders), I mean really serious about teaching the Word to God's people, he'd go to school and get an education. The more I read of Church History, and other Bible perspectives, over the years it has become more and more apparent to me how uneducated TWI followers were in the "Biblical field." Being able to spout off verses and orientalisms does not make one a teacher or scholar. In fact, theologically, historically and in most other ways, we were downright ignorant, led by our "Father" VP who had a degree in preaching. Our little bit of "knowledge" made us downright dangerous to ourselves and those around us sometimes. In fact, being stuck in PFAL mode is like repeating 2nd grade over, and over, and over. There is so much more out there God has to offer. Move on, move up. Yet, TWI offshoots insist they have the best, improved package - oh well. And, if one were to decide to work within an organization again, I would think collectively that us ex-TWI'ers are not going to follow one man and his BOT. I'd find a mainstream denominational church, with much input, psychological evaluations of their leadership, openess - i.e., a place where there are checks and balances, so no one man ever runs the show. And, of course, there's the threat of last resort - the old "bema" card. Anyone who tries to put fear into a child of God at meeting his Lord one day - well, its not Godly. Being with Christ and being a new creation is the Christian's hope. For someone to use that to browbeat and put fear in one of God's children ("I wouldn't want to be you at the bema" - VPW and others), well, maybe a millstone should be tied around his neck. Their package has wrought ruin - yet, they keep on pushing it. I guess, no, they really haven't learned anything.

Bullinger's commentary is excellent. I've read several others over the years. The one that I love though, is written by a guy named Donald Barnhouse. I couldn't put it down, plus, he does an amazing job showing in Revelation, exactly how the corresponding OT prophecy is fullfilled. I've recommended his book "Revelation" to others and they have really enjoyed it. Its available on Amazon in softback.

I'll get back to you on the emptying of paradise and the firstfruits, I forgot where I got that. I haven't thought of it in awhile. Yes, Revelation is just awesome, it is about hope - its a wonderful hope for the Christian to have. Its written to and for the Church (22:16 - I Jesus have sent my angel to give you this testimony FOR the churches), that our joy may be full. We are also told, blessed is he who reads this prophecy - doesn't say you have to understand it, just read it. It then says blessed are those who hear it and "take it to heart" - why? "Because the time is near." It is amazing to me how many Christians have really begun to read, study and understand this book in the last few years. I believe its God working in peoples hearts because, the time is near. What was once a "mystery" has become not hard to understand at all. I also like how you have the message to the churches (present), then in 4:1, we fast forward to the future "Come up here" "I will show you what must take place after this - future.