Sunesis

I have always believed it was a move of God, as we all left pretty much at the same time. I think after POP and that awful corps week, God worked in many, many of us that it was time to go. We had grown up, were now in our '30s, were starting to think for ourselves. The door was open, we went, with no loss of "face." The younger generation, was where we were when we were young, but under LCM not VP. They had the mentality we had as youngsters - they were going to stick with him no matter what. I tried talking to a couple of young corps men and I realized, they'd have to grow up and figure it out for themselves. I think the Allen lawsuit was God's move and their door. I've always seen it as two "moves" or waves, or exoduses. One for the first generation, one for the next.

Brushstroke, I'm really enjoying your posts! I'm so glad you could join us. :) You too Sky.

SoCal, you read into what I said. I am not casting "aspertions" on Rochelle's brother at all. Al was a wonderful person who I had only respect for and total compassion for the deep, horrendous pain he went through. I know because I was with him for part of it. He was heartbroken. Obviously you didn't know her well, nor the circumstances, nor her suicidal tendencies which were known to the higher ups and her close friends. Shut up about what you don't know about. Quit guessing.

I don't know how well you knew Rochelle, but I knew her very well. What was done to her, how she was run out of HQ, their total lack of concern for her, the lies about her suicide - all appalling. When I told M.F*rt her blood was upon his head - it was true. Then and now. I still don't know how they live with themselves. Don't minimize TWI's involvement and hand in Rochelle's death. Her brother was a good guy. But he was a "company man." Of course he wasn't going to take any action against TWI. But he was devastated. Would it have been too much for MF, the people at the Indiana limb - those who saw how depressed and devastated she was, to call him, and say, come get her? Yes, it was too much, obviously. She will always be like a dear little sister to me, and I will not let anyone minimize her, play it down, lie about it, or sweep it under the rug.

Oldies, Jesus told his followers that the world hated Him, and if they followed Him, the world would hate them too. We are told we will have trials, tribulation and persecution in this world because we are followers of him. Funny how VP always left that part out. If you've never experienced any hardship and your life has been roses, maybe you may want to reconsider just who or what it is you've been following. Your idol VP will be of no help in times of trouble. This devilish "law of believing" - this, hey, I can control my life, circumstances and God with my mind - is ludicrous. Oldies, maybe you'd enjoy the new book "The Secret" that people are flocking after. Its your beloved "law of believing" wrapped in a new package with a new name for the masses. There truly is nothing new under the sun. It all comes around again but with a different name and package. And do a google search on martyrs. I believe many died who were not called to do so as a martyr, but I too believe martyrs are told ahead of time they will be martyrs and the Holy Spirit works within them mightily to endure. You dismiss it out of hand. Read up.

I remember him. He was a pretty arrogant, nasty little fella. He sure did not like most GSers. I'm not sure why he'd even want to come back.

Excellent posts Sky and Socks - Its a blessing to hear your perspectives. In some ways, for me, it was hard to take VP seriously about a lot of things. I never liked VP, from my first meeting with him as a "groovy christian of Rye" when we came and taught us in TB's living room. I had an instant dislike of him. My father was an alcoholic, and VP reminded me so much like him. I was able to let a lot just roll off my back. Some of it I thought was normal. So I did with him what I did with my own father, avoided him and ignored him and enjoyed the fellowship of my friends. I went into the 7th corps to learn the Word, and be a better leader. The wonderful people I met were icing on the cake. By then, the corps has grown to a few hundred people. If it had been a small group, like the 1st through 5th was, and having to live at HQ with the MOG, I never would have gone in the corps. But by then, it was large, we were at Emporia and LCM was running it. As I said, it was the knowledge of the Word I wanted. I still believed, in my youthful naivete that TWI was the only one who had that. Excie - keep it coming!! :)

Hello Neo. And just who the hell do you think you are? How dare you come in and attack other people for their opinions??? How dare you? You better go back and read what this site is for - it is to tell the other side of the story. Don't like it, flip the channel, go put up your own site and worship VP there. Who are you to come here in such a nasty way? You have done a total disservice to any cause you may have. And just so you know, we'll continue to discuss what we want, about who we want, whether you approve or not. Get over yourself dude.

Jesus Christ Oldies! This is pathetic, even for you - that you sit here and defend VP beating his pet. This is absolutely pathetic how far and how low you will go to defend your idol. Hey, its ok to beat your pets folks. This is really low, even for you. It is disgusting. Have you no friggin' heart???!!!! You are a fine example of MOG worship at it finest and most degraded.

Hi Bowtie. Regarding your question of Judas, I do not believe he was "born again." The Bible is quite clear in calling him the man of perdition. If you read Peter in Acts, he is quite clear when he says Judas has no place with them. Peter does not hide what he thinks of Judas. I believe Christ knew when he called him to follow him, who he was and what his role would be, the one fitted for Perdition - destruction. Yet, what I find incredible, is even then, Christ treats him as his closest friend when he hands him the sop. He trusts him with their money. What this shows me is that, even after offering his love and friendship to Judas, it shows me that a man's nature - one who does not love God - even if Christ were to be with him in the flesh, if he does not accept Christ as Messiah/Savior, he cannot be forced to believe, his nature cannot be changed, and God will not overstep the man's free will. Man's nature is still enmity with God. Judas after being with Christ (Emmanuel - God with us) still did not accept him, nor his love. There are times when Satan, faced with a monumental and pivotal task that must be done right to accomplish his will, will do something himself, such as when he tempted Christ in the wilderness and Adam and Eve in the Garden. Satan, in order to get the ball rolling for Christ to be killed, thought this so important, that he entered into Judas. He entered into Judas. The only other person Satan will ever enter into in the Word is yet to come - the Antichrist. So, to me, there were only two men ever entered into by Satan in the Word - Judas and Antichrist. Thus, I personally do not think Judas was ever then or now, born again. But that is just my opinion. :)

Very nice T-Bone! Ever since I read Christ say that in his Father's house were many mansions years ago as a youth, I always thought that meant another dimension. The many mansions, or rooms, were different places and dimensions. I think when mankind someday sees Christ revealed when he comes in glory, it will be like a limosine with dark windows, when the windows roll down, you see the occupants. I think someday, the sky will roll open and part and the whole world - every human being all over the world, will see his face and will know - he has always been here. Now, though, the window is rolled up, we see through a glass darkly... Thus, men scoff and mock and say - where is he? I believe we will need a new body because the heavens are "heavier" matterwise than here. I sometimes wonder if our world is not the ghostly, wispy world. I say that because, for example, have you ever drive through fog? Its dark and dense, has a form, and is real. But, because we are heavier than it, we pass right through it easily. We know Christ passed right through walls, appeared in rooms in the midst, etc. In other words, he was able to pass right through things because they were as fog to him, his resurrected body was different - heavier somehow. A wall to him is as fog to us. Who knows how our bodies will be changed, or those bodies of those who are dead. I imagine we'll find out soon enough.

RD's teaching to us in the Corps on the ark of the covenant was one of the best teachings I ever heard in my whole time in residence. It was amazing and has stayed with me to this day. The greatness of the temple and ark of the tabernacle cannot be underestimated. Every single item in it propheycized Christ - the Messiah to come. Every single action pointed to him. God dwelt with Israel on the Mercy Seat (which, pointing to Christ, covered their sins). They followed his glorious cloud. When it moved, they moved. Very sad to read about the cloud leaving in increments when they turned away from him. From the seat, to the entrance, to the doorway, outside, gone. Yet, we are then told that Christ was the LIVING tabernacle of God among men when he walked here. God was again tabernacled among men. Christ, whose flesh veiled the God within. Christ, the living tabernacle. It blows my mind. Thanks to RD, I understand. The study of the tablernacle, ark and temple in the Bible is fascinating - its all over the Bible. It is also a pattern of the heavenly tabernacle. God's heavenly temple revealed on earth. Its a huge deal.

I took a look at their Fellow Laborers program and the comments by the kids - God bless them. But, after reading that they joyously spent their time driving people, cleaning, taking care of "material" things for gatherings, etc., the general busywork they "get" to do to bless the body, reading the very similar "wayspeak" - so to speak - I couldn't finish. Sounded just like us years ago. Like a bad dream. The joy of being a flunkie. Sounds like TWI is alive and well in CFF. Seeing that keeps me thankful God opened a door for us to leave. I just could never go back to that "lifestyle." Lots and lots of running around "doing" things. Kind of like Martha in the gospels. They're certainly busy, but that's all it is, busy work amongst themselves.

I believe the reason Jesus, hanging on the cross, could say to the malfactor, today you will be with me in paradise, is because that is where they were both going - to Sheol, to Paradise - or Abraham's bosom - like every other soul before him awaiting his coming who had died. Note, though the malfactor's body would die, his soul would not. It was going to a specific destination, and he would be there with his Savior. Conscious and aware. It was not until Christ was resurrected out of Sheol (after 3 days), that He took those there with him to heaven. So yes, for three days after Christ's death both Christ and the malefactor were in Paradise. The body was dead, the soul was in Paradise. It was not until Christ was resurrected that they would be in Heaven. That's why the Word says Christ descended to the depths for us. That's why, the psalmist, prophecizing about the Messiah could say: Thou will NOT leave my soul in hell, nor your holy one to see corruption. Christ knew, his Father would not leave him in Shoel. He had to literally trust that his Father would not leave him there. I think that's why he sweat drops like as blood in the Garden praying. There was the possibility he would never be with his Father again - ever. No wonder - the thought was horrifying to him. If Christ's sacrifice had been unacceptable - he would not have been raised and resurrected. His soul would have been left there, and all mankind would have been lost. Yet, he trusted in God and did the Father's will. He loved us enough to go to the depths of Sheol for us, to come get us, and then to shut the "gates" of hell so that it shall never prevail against the Church, his body again. Its closed.

I've read most of her work. The Vampire series, the Witches of Talbot series, the Mummy, and several other of her books. She is an amazing writer. Even though she wasn't born again, well, she still told a darn good story. She is a classic writer of her generation. There was always some Christian imagery in some of her writings. Actually, I was not that surprised when she became a Christian.

We never were taught in TWI about the tranfiguration on the Mount when Christ took Peter, John and James with him and they saw him in his full glory. But if you read acts and I and II Peter, it was something always with Peter, he never forgot it. As the "main" apostle, he spoke of it often. I'm also reminded of the incident when Saul went to the witch of Endor and had her bring up Samuel. She freaked out, because, instead of channeling a spirit, as she probably was used to doing - another ho hum reading, she really did bring up Samuel. God allowed his soul to be brought up from Paradise, or Abraham's bosom - Sheol, where he and the other righteous saints waited for Christ. I think it really was him, not a devil spirit, as VP taught. We read in Revelation how the souls of the martyred tribulation saints, before they are clothed with their new bodies, ask God how long until they are avenged as they await their new bodies in heaven. There are just too many scriptures re: souls and they are not blotted out or obliterated. There is a place where those who await judgment go, and a place where those who are His are with him as both groups await their bodies prepared for eternity.

Aw, shucks Jonny You were quite a sweetie yourself! You still are.

I believe TWI was wrong. TWI's doctrine is known as "annihilation" doctrine. Basically only TWI and Jehovah's Witnesses share this view. Yes, when the body dies, it returns to dust. BUT The soul/spirit goes to be with Christ. Christ taught us about this in the "parable" (I don't think its really a parable) of Lazarus. In the OT, before Christ was risen, all who died went to Shoel, hades, hell - pick a name. Shoel was divided into two sections: Paradise, or "Abraham's Bosom" as it was also called, where those who looked forward to him (OT saints) went. Those who died without him went to Shoel or Hades. A great gulf lay between the two sections so they could not cross over. See the "parable" of Lazarus. Christ describes it. When Christ arose, he took those in paradise and brought them to heaven. He emptied Paradise. Christ after his death and resurrection now has the keys to hell, or hades, sheol - whatever you prefer to call it. That is why we are told the Gates of Hell cannot prevail ever again against the church, i.e., no soul who ever died in Christ since his resurrection ever goes to paradise - or sheol or Hades, or Hell. They go to be with Christ in Heaven. As of yet though, they (and we at the gathering) have not yet been given their new bodies - their new creation bodies. That's why I feel the dead in Christ are seated - not "risen." When they have their new bodies, they will "rise" or stand up so to speak. If you do a study through the Bible you will see that the dead souls (not bodies) in Sheol: talk, feel, have consciousness, etc. and will in the future. Those who are Christ's will have new, eternal bodies prepared for eternity in heaven. Those who chose not to be with him will have eternal bodies prepared for eternity without him in the "lake of fire" or, in the place "outside the gate." The distinction TWI failed to make was between the body - dust - disintegrating in the grave, having no memory, etc. - which is true, and the Soul, which does not disintegrate and does not die. God says in Eccl. 3:11 that he has set eternity in men's hearts. He does not kill life which he created - men's souls. They are eternal. I know there will be varying opinions, but this is my take.

Or, it could have been an angel. You have been asking. Muse some more. Its always interesting when strange "coincidences" like that happen.

I believe TWI did not teach us about Christ. Oh, sure, we'd trot him out on Easter or Xmas, and stick his name on the end of our prayers, but other than that, he was "absent." The "Word" took the place of the "absent" Christ allowing VP and LCM to take Christ's place and become mediators for people (they got the revvy dontcha know). Once I found Christ - who he is, his divinity, that he is not absent, etc., I found what I had been missing. I hope you find what you are looking for.

That's an amazing story Bingo. I assume you lurked for a long time. I'm glad you're now joining us to share with us and hang out.

I could never bring myself to bring anything for burn the chaff day. The whole concept reminded me too much of the films of book burnings I had seen in Nazi Germany. Here, now VP wanted to do the same thing. There's a red flag I overlooked in my youthful naivete.

Spectrum, one of the things TWI did was leave Christ out of the equation. Sure, he's mentioned at the end of a prayer, or you learn a bit about him on Easter, etc. But, the Bible is prophecy. The whole truth of the OT is Christ to Come. The Gospels - he's here "God with us." The NT - he's our hope, Revelation reveals him in glory for us to hope for. We are his body and bride. TWI is wrong doctrinally saying there is a difference between Christ's body and Bride. Athlete's of the spirit - way off. It is a military analogy, not an "athletic" one. The Bible is about Christ. We are to fellowship with Christ. We are not to worship and elevate "the Word" over and above Christ, as TWI did and continues to do. Its about Fellowship with Christ and knowing him. Its wonderful to fellowship with other Christians who know Christ. That's the point of fellowship. Haven't you ever heard other believers, outside of TWI, talk about their personal relationship with Christ? Don't you wonder what it is you're missing? TWI will give you lots of head knowledge, but no knowledge of Christ. Follow Him, not TWI.

Outfield, great incidents. But it sounds like, many of your experiences weren't the law of believing, but rather, the manifestations of Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom. Knowledge = What's going on Wisdom = what to do. Like when you told the lady with cancer what to do. That was Word of Wisdom. I sometimes think we attribute everything to "believing" when in actuallity, its other manifestations at work.

Law firms also use LEXIS for research finding law cases. LEXIS cites are now commonplace in briefs. There was another search engine for law cases, I forget what it is called now, our firm doesn't use it anymore. This was about '98 I had a lawyer look up TWI lawsuits in Ohio. There were quite a few, mostly TWI being sued, some by "disgruntled" followers. I think there was one guy, my memory is hazy, maybe someone else will remember, who was disabled and had given most of his money to TWI and his family sued to get it back. When I was on staff, they had a staff attorney. Obviously, they had enough to keep a TWI "in-house" attorney working full time with a secretary. They had a falling out, he left in the early '80s.