Sunesis

Memories... It was Bob Richards, the olympic athlete, who for years was on the Wheaties box all of us baby boomers stared at as we ate our breakfasts. I too wondered why VP trotted him out, all of a sudden, out of the blue at corps week. Usually someone like that would have been built up, lauded, etc. Turns out, Richards was the populist party candidate for president that year. For you history buffs, the Populist party was the political party of the Liberty Lobby - the white supremist party. They actually did pretty well in Iowa and a couple of other midwestern states. As we know, the Liberty Lobby was the organization that was a front for myriad white supremist groups. The Liberty Lobby was located in Washington D.C. where they also printed their little magazine, the Spotlight. It was from here VP got his illuminati tapes, his "revelation" in the '70s the country was about to collapse, the tapes he played at the Advanced Class, etc. All the "revy" secret stuff he taught came from them, all of his conspiracy theories (the secret constitution, Jonestown was really a CIA operation, et al.). He also had a "hotline" he called with updates. So, since VP was an active member, Bob stopped by. He gave a speech, then was gone. I don't think he ever took the class.

Sure, there were some good times in TWI, but I agree, much of it was a waste. We stayed too long at the fair. Our youth given over to the shyster VP's organization. When I left, I went to NYC and spent 10 years playing thrash and hardcore metal with various bands in clubs from CBGB's to the Kat Club - all the big NYC clubs, hanging out with Chris Stein and Blondie, meeting other bands, seeing "underground" performance art, living in the east village, and jamming at Dan Lynch's playing blues on the weekends, making "natural man" friends. It was the '80s, I had the time of my life - stuff I should have been doing in my 20s. Making up for the lost youth. I always kept that verse in mind, God will repay you the years the locusts have eaten. Years later, looking back now, I believe he has.

Bride, I believe he will appear human. Every appearance of an angel to humans in the Bible, they have all appeared human. Just as the "gods" of ancient babylon, sumeria, egypt, et a., also appeared human and were worshippped. The Sumarians carved pictures of them on their temple walls. Its the same gang of old and ancient "myth" being let out to make their appearance once more with Apollo, the Beast, as their head.

I've read many excellent books on Revelation. It was written after the persecutions of Nero. I believe it is written to the Jewish assemblies living under the Beast. The church is gone, man's day is over, God now deals with Israel and the gentiles. I recommend Bullinger's Book, Commentary on Revelation. He shows, how what is written to each assembly is right there in the OT, its application for them then, and their reward if they overcome. Christ has already overcome for us, and in Rev., the epistles to the assemblies, they must overcome. I also know many apply it to the Christian church. There's too much OT, Jewish imagery for it to be to the Christian assemblies. If you read the epistles to the assemblies in Rev., with no commentary, as written to those living under the rule of the Beast, its chilling. Too much in there has not happened. But, this book will continue to be debated, there are many differing views on it.

Ok, I'll throw my 2 cents in. First, I don't believe we will know. The Antichrist/Beast is not revealed until the "restrainer" (Holy Spirit/Church) is taken out of the way. Then, man's fallen nature can go unchecked. There will be nothing to restrain it left. Believers are told to watch for Christ's imminent return. We are not told to look for the Beast, monitor politics, or the world situation, or look for signs. Signs are for those alive during the Beast's reign. We are specifically told in Revelation that the Beast comes from the "abyss." The angel unlocks the abyss, the Beast is let out, he is named. His name is Abbadon (Hebrew) and Appollyon (Greek). Thus, I do not believe he will be human. I believe he is the same being who was worshipped before the flood, when the fallen angels, or "gods," were worshipped by mankind. They were bound in chains so they could never damage the human line again, and it is they whom Christ went and preached to after his crucifiction. Why do I think it will be this god, or fallen angel? First, because there is only one other time in the Bible where Satan incarnated in a human. It was so awful for that human, he killed himself. That was Judas. I do not believe a human could withstand having a spiritual being such as Satan living in their flesh. It would kill them in short order. Second, because no matter how amazing a human may be, I don't think one could get the whole world worshipping him - someone would be bitching about him somewhere. Third, if one were a "god," a fallen angel, a being who looks human (as do all appearances of angels in the Bible who appear to humans), but is supranatural - it can truly do "wonders." Things no human could do. It will be Apollo returned - the one who was, who now is not, but then will be. I believe a fallen angel would have no problem allowing Satan to incarnate in him as he sits on the throne in the rebuilt temple, showing that he is God. Note, at the end, he is thrown into the lake of fire alive. This tells me, he has a body different than peoples' bodies. His buddy, the false prophet is also from the abyss, as is his entourage. He is the destroyer, to humans he will be spectacular.

Not too radical Bride! That's awesome re: the flesh and blood. Lots of things to think about. Thank you. I have also thought, the whole Garden of Eden was a type, a shadow on earth, of the true heaven's temple which we can't see. I've thought that Eden is set up, was a pattern of the heavenly Temple. We see the temple motif all over the bible. I've often thought the tree of life was the innermost "holy of holies" of the Temple. When they were thrown out, they were thrown out into the outer courtyard, never allowed to enter the Holy place again until God had the Jewish people make the temple. I have often thought the Tree of Life represented Christ, whom we are to "take, eat" of now. The tree had medicinal purposes. It would have kept them alive forever as they ate of it. Then, Christ comes, and now tells them to take, eat, of him. He is Emmanuel - God with us, He is God tabernacled in the flesh dwelling among men. He now offers at the last supper, the tree - Himself, take, eat. I believe Holy Communion, if properly taught today, is also medicinal. We are partaking in life.

Bride, again, gotta agree there. Or, Melchisedec was a "type" of the Christ to come. I believe, the Jewish leaders of Jesus' time, the priests of the Synagogue, knew the Messiah would usher in a new priesthood - the priesthood of Melchisedec. The Aaronic/Levitical priesthood would be replaced by the new priesthood of Melchisedec. This is why, when Caiaphas was the high priest for that month, he was the one who delivered Jesus, the sacrificial lamb, to Pilate to have killed. Thus, the high priest Caiaphas truly did put to death the lamb, fulfiling the OT prophecy. But, note what Caiphas did. As Jesus was in front of Pilate, Caiaphas "rent" his priestly robes. Under the OT law, this was prohibited - a priest could not rend his robe. If you read about Caiphas previously, he knew there was a new priest of the order of Melchisedec coming. As he watched Christ standing there, meek like the lamb for the slaughter - he knew. I believe he truly knew. He was looking at the lamb, the soon to be new Royal Priest of the new line of the order of Melchisedec. Thus, he rent his robes, signifying the end of the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood. As if to confirm this, at Christ's death on the cross, the veil in the Holy of Holies in the temple is rent in half. That fabric was almost 1/2 foot thick. The veil (symbolizing Christ's flesh which was rent and pierced) was rent. Through the new King/High Priest Christ, after the order of Melchisedec, all who desire can now come to God.

Bride, I too have thought the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was Christ, or a type of Christ. There was a choice to be made. Interestingly, that tree is never mentioned again. I looked it up. In Rev. there is the Tree of Life, and the Living Waters - I knew there were two. Living Waters for all to drink of. I find it interesting that it was the woman who first ate of the tree in the Garden. Now, in Revelation, it is the woman, the Bride, who invites all to freely come, eat. Pretty neat.

Could be Thomas, I don't have my Bible here. I'll check later today. I do know, one of them's there, dangit! :)

Hello Jen-O. I was reading about a Christian guy who was a pothead, and he was just so sure the tree they ate of was pot - or a drug that got one high. Because, when they ate, the fruit "opened their eyes" (i.e., they were high, beyond normal consciousness) and they knew they were naked - that's as good an interpretation as any I guess - LOL. But it does make my point, people project what they're into onto the poor tree. I do know that we do see both trees again in the Book of Revelation in the New Jerusalem in the millenium and they are freely available to all, the leaves are for the healing of the nations. So, if TWI were really following its own principles, and following their usage in the Bible, since they appear in the New Jerusalem in the millenium and have nothing to do with sex, drugs, or rock n'roll (I threw that one in :) ), I would imagine both VP's and LCM's interpretations are dead wrong. Phony MOG's, false prophets they were/are.

Great, so you know God. Do you know Christ personally? Have they gotten around to teaching that yet? Or is he still being researched? Christ is God's heart. Do you know him? If you do not know him personally, then you do not know God, although you may think you do.

That's very interesting Chockful. So they gave Janet and her "best" friend a banquet before they left? I had heard they were thrown out and left suddenly. So, I guess that was wrong, they were wined and dined. I think what VP and LCM taught about being the "original sin" is nothing but a projection of their own sexual fantasies onto the fall. If you read other people's take on it, its always something that has to do with them. You can see the same thing in the writings of philosophers, eventually their "philosophy" is really about them. They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Who knows what it was. But LCM seeing the tree as a penis is whacked - his utterly corrupted seared conscience wishing it so. I would imagine since Janet was sent away so lavishly, they all still keep in touch.

Oh, well aren't you just so "special" - you gave us a test.

Oldies, if you have "genuine spiritual suspicion" I am gay, as you insinuated in your response to me - think what you want. I could care less what you think. We all know where the "genuine spiritual suspicion" went - it was pathetic. You have accused me of something. Did I go running to the moderator to "report" you? No. You just aren't worth my time. But I did catch it. Don't think I didn't notice it. But I don't go running and whining to the mods like you do. What a whiny little hypocrite you are, you go running to the mods when you feel "attacked," yet, you do the same thing to others, insinuate and attack and expect to be given a free pass. Go ahead, use your "genuine spiritual suspicion" on the folks here.

You know, why, somehow, am I not surprised VP was after/doing John's wife? Really, how low can a man go? Making some poor man thinking he was to blame for a car accident in which a brother in Christ died, so the man is kept off balance and in condemnation while VP goes after his wife. Really, can you say this is Godly fruit of the spirit? If anyone believes this is the Holy Spirit at work, its blasphemous. Calling the evil the man did (VP) - good. VP never manifested any remorse. I knew John in residence, he was a great, sweet man. I never knew the burden he must have been carrying in his soul. And it was VP who put that burden on him - an innocent man who loved God. I can understand how VP could make someone feel so guilt-ridden they would consider themselves better off dead, so as to be no disgrace to God. No wonder VP whined he wished he were the man he knew to be at the end of his life. Too late!

That's a great point Garth. There was no mercy, compassion, or forgiveness from VP. Yet, VP worshippers expect everyone else to "forgive." What hypocrites.

Just as I thought Oldies. You're not offended and could care less what VP did with the girl. Yet, you are offended if he tried that with you. Can you say double-standard boys and girls? Its ok for VP to do things to girls, no skin off your back. You could care less. Hey, its just a little back rub. But - if it were you in the same situation - you feel sick. Oh, now suddenly you care. Yet, you can't understand why a female would also feel sick. You feel sick - but you for the life of you can't understand why a girl would feel that way. You proved my point. You have just shown everyone what you are. What's good for the gander, when all of a sudden it could be you, suddenly, it sure ain't good for the goose. Double-standard.

Oldies, why are you not offended at all by what happened to the lady, but you would be offended if it happened to you? I'd like to know your answer. What's the difference? It happens to her and you defend VP to the hilt for doing what he did. Thinking about VP doing it to you and you are offended. Why? You have said what he did was ok. You said it was proper for her to rub his buttocks. Why is it not proper for you to rub his buttocks if VP asked? Why all of a sudden is it now not ok if it concerns you? What is the difference? Why are you not offended when its someone else, but offended if it would happen to you?

No personal attack Oldies. Just fact. You are ok with this. You have stated there is nothing wrong with what VP did. So, obviously, no problem if he did it to you. You would defend his actions in doing this with you. We understand that.

So, Oldies, I'm glad you would have no problem drinking with VP, going to his bed at his invitation and rubbing his buttocks. Good to know. After all, he was the MOG and you would have done his bidding. Oldies rubbing VPs buttocks with a smile and a Drambuie buzz on, it fits somehow.

Excie, you don't ever have to apologize for the hell VP put you through - ever. He knew your past, he didn't care. I really believe, to him, his sexual lusts and use of many, many women, maybe wasn't even about sex, it was about power. Power to dominate, power over women. He was a misogynist. The way he spoke of women in corps "womens' meetings" was shocking sometimes. It was power and domination. You are remarkably brave to share what happened.

Or you think he would have at least gotten revelation the girl was suicidal and not to screw that one. Surely God would have warned him? Gee, not very perceptive was he? Not walking with God there. What a conman VP was, what a sham, MOG my butt. Oldies, you have never once, ever, in all the years I've seen you on this board, ever felt anything for one of VP's women that he destroyed or ruined. Not once. Ever. I'm beginning to believe you have no conscience. Bird of a feather flock together - you can have your idol VP and your attendant idol worship of him that goes with it. Someday, something's going to happen that will open your eyes, shake you to the core, and you will bow down and ask Christ's forgiveness for your hard heart - for by your words, you show that you do not know Him. You know and worship VP, not Christ.

You see them in law firms. I've worked for two, who I would say were definite sociopaths. Its not that they don't care. A real sociopath is beyond that. They cannot care, no matter what. I consider them "defects." There is literally something missing in their mind/conscience. They are "defective." They have no clue how others feel. The can pretend to be remorseful, caring, but they aren't. They have no clue. The successful ones in law, have what I call the Dr. Jeckyl/Dr. Hyde syndrome. They are wonderful, amazing schoozers with clients, political people, anyone who counts. But, in the office they are tyrants, flying into rages at employees, girlfriends, family - they let down their guard. They will then literally wonder why someone is upset - they don't get it. They just don't get it. They never can. One of my bosses last year even ran for mayor of my fair city. He lost. The other raging psycho lawyer is climbing up the ranks of the local Democratic party here - rising up in ranks, a "behind the scenes" guy. You see them in the top in other professions and business. In some businesses, you must be one to succeed.

Word. Amen to that ladies. He had no conscience. No man with the Holy Spirit living in him, who followed our Lord Christ, could have watched the damage he did, the sexual misconduct and its consequences, people's suicides, devastated lives, families torn apart, etc., and not been deeply hurt, mortified, and appalled. Most mens' conscience, even after one suicide, would have been devasted. He cared not, had his leadership rail against the suicides and deaths, it was always someone elses, or something elses fault. It never dawned on him that he could be a cause. No, he just went merrily, blithely along his way. La de da, isn't this a great day the Lord hath made? Who can I screw today? What an evil man.

WD, Jen's saying VP was a false prophet. VP was a false apostle VP, who called himself the "Man of God," which was inscribed on his little bracelet, was not the MOG. He was a false prophet who ravaged the flock. You've been here along time. Quit being delibertely obtuse. You know what Jen was saying.