Sunesis

I love this: "All because VP couldn't hold up under accountability to a church." Sums up VP and his doctrines nicely. Of course he had to rail against the churches and keep us away from them for his doctrine to cast its spell on us.

I like your point Groucho about likening whatever TWI taught, to the devil's quoting of scripture. Sure, anyone can quote scripture, that's why we need to look at the fruit, or result. TWI, with its scripture wrecked havoc with too many peoples' lives. I have thought for a long time, their actions negated anything they spoke or taught.

39! I thought you were 29! Oh well, you look fab! Happy Birthday Excie - you go girl!!!!

Absolutely My3cents. Many best friends, when it came down to it were very superficial. When they found I had left TWI they would not talk to me. But, I had expected that so I was not surprised. At the end, I thought about all the people I had known and was "friends" with. When all was said and done, I realized that probably 3-5 were true, lifelong friends. And over the years, since I have left, it has shrunk a bit more. I also think that our natural man families were so minimized in TWI, I thank God for them now.

Very good point about the stereotypes, thus not seeing it coming Catcup! I agree, I think if someone really wants to know, telling them you were in a church that was becoming too controlling is something people can easily relate to. For those thinking of leaving, if you interview, just say you worked for a non-profit religous group. People don't usually care, plenty of those around. But back to TWI, in TWI we made what I call "instant" friends. With most adults, making new friends takes time, but in TWI, you met someone and if you liked each other, right away, new best friend! And we did have a lot. I think that's a problem when people leave. In the world there are no instant best friends. You can find instant comaraderie at a bar, which I consider false friendship when morning's light dawns. But unless you grew up with people or went to school with them, the friendships like we had in TWI are few and far between. I've found, though that even in the "world," God seems to bring the right people into my life.

Wonderful advice to people Oldies - to just get over it. This time you couched it nicely in scripture. To answer your question, in TWI we really didn't have boundaries. In other words, we had many good friends we could discuss anything with. After being involved in TWI from age 15 to my thirties, after I left, it was going to ACOA meetings (Adult Children of Alcoholics) that a natural man friend had invited me to, to go with him, that really opened my eyes about boundaries and how the world and "natural man" works - i.e., their social rules, which are much different than TWI's social rules. I think many long-term TWI people don't realize the difference. First, I never mention my "cult" experience to anyone unless I have known them a long time and they are a very good friend. Of course, I will tell people I'm Christian, no problem, but no mention of TWI. Most people who are not friend or family could really care less what you've been through and do not want someone's burden added to them - I know that may seem hard to believe or callous, but its mostly true. I talked with family, close friends, and other ex-twi folks I knew. Sometimes talking about it with others who had been through it over time is very healing. If you feel you need more, I would look up some psychiatry/psychology associations and find a therapist who specializes in cults or something of that nature and go see them. You should be able to find someone close to you. Of course, stick around here too!

Google some of the people he used to hang out with. Albert Cliffe I believe, who did the "Camps Farthest Out" that VP used to attend was into, a kind of Christian mysticism. I believe VP also got many of his beliefs from Al, Star Daily, Glenn Clark, etc. The old timers he mentioned. Many of these guys were from the Tulsa, OK area. There was a "movement" there, the Tulsa "renegade" preachers. Some years after WWII when America was prospering, they decided they could all make more money if they started their own ministries. VP used to attend these meetings with these guys in Tulsa. Remember when he was in Tulsa when he learned to SIT? It was with these guys. Gee, I wonder where VP got the idea to do his own ministry? Then, as the other poster stated, there were the "magic" of thinking big books in the '50s. There were the Dale Carnegie how to win friends and influence people books that VP liked. Also, Kenyon was a big proponent of the "name it and claim it" theology. Kenyon was also a student of Mary Baker Eddy, the lady who started Christian Science - i.e., the "power of the mind" teaching. He was sold in the bookstore. VP had an interesting hodgepodge of teachings. I'm starting to think, if he found something he liked, he'd pull out a few scriptures to back it up, then teach it.

Kris, thank you again for sharing - ignore the two goobers who always show up. Paw thanks for deleting them. Excie my friend, you have absolutely nothing, ever, to be ashamed of. You go girl!!! I found it amazing Kris, that his answer to your pain and misery was that you were possessed. Don't talk that way or we won't be able to have good times (sex). I really think he just wanted you to shut up and wanted to continue the good times (according to him). I even think, he wouldn't have cared if you had taken your life, he just would have missed the good times, told everyone you were possessed, and then found someone else. He had absolutely no clue as to how to respond. His only response was sex - please him. What a psychopath, I believe he was beyond narcissism. The bit about the rings is interesting. I have a feeling he gave them to his special ladies who felt honored wearing them. It was almost like he got a kick out of seeing them - like they were his secret wives, or secret harem. Sick.

White Dove, you are such an incredible example. I'm sure, that after everyone reads your posts, we all want to aspire to walk as perfectly, and as in fellowship as you do with whatever god it is you worship. Share with us why don't you. What's it like to be so special? So perfect? So righteous? So much better than everyone else? Help us all be just like you.

Boy, I remember VP ripping on PV that corps week. Someone tattled on PV, or said he was smoking pot. VP was outraged. I talked to PV, told him I was behind him and he told me the story was not true. The girl who said that was angry at him about something and decided to get him. Whether he did or not, to me didn't matter. VP was unconscionable the way he publically humiliated him - his sadistic streak coming out again. If I were Paul I would have publically told him to keep his ordination. Its amazing the humiliation TWI corps men put up with.

Linda Z, I know what you're saying. Yes, some of the people who ran departments at HQ were just stupid, legalistic people. When I left TWI for the field I was so glad to be going away from HQ. It was one cabinent member who's small action during the ROA was straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, and I realized, these "top" leadership could give 2 cents about the "people" they were supposed to be serving. On the field, the legalism was just as bad. After a dream one night, and musing on it, I was walking down the street of my city, and stopped and just thought, that's it, I'm done, no mas. I felt lighthearted and free from bondage - free at last, after 18 years. I had nothing, but at least the life I built was going to be my own. I remember the 5th corps ordinations, I too was amazed at some of the people, I'm thinking of a couple of women here, who had no obvious "ministry" and I was astounded they were ordained. But, there was one guy in the 5th corps who was not asked to be ordained, Ant*** P***. He was very angry and really put up a fight to be ordained. He couldn't understand why his corps was asked but he wasn't. I think he did well the next year and got ordained then. He did get ordained.

I welcome opposing views, I always have. Its also nice for those with opposing views to be respectful too - works both ways. There's one aethiest on the doctrinal forums, who in the thread title says he doesn't believe in God (fine - I don't care if someone does or doesn't), that is why he's no longer irrational and superstitious. I.e., those who do believe are irrational and superstitious. That is insulting to those who do believe. There are many wonderful Christian websites, and some pretty awful ones. I know GS is not a Christian site, we all do. That still doesn't mean that those who believe are to be continually insulted or looked down upon. There's just as much smug arrogance and self-righteousness in the hardcore aethiest as there is the hardcore fundy - there's no difference. Their anger and hate are the same. That also means those who don't believe are to be insulted either.

No problem, I was just asking. I know you have personally insulted me on doctrinal threads, and wondered why you just had to be, I don't know, you seem particularly angry. I can see being angry about this little cornfield cult we were all in - youth wasted, time lost, but I wonder why you seem to have an angry attitude towards anyone who does believe. Anytime God or the Bible is mentioned you in particular have something mean to say. I've noticed the other aethists here don't. So, just sayin. I've often wondered how people who didn't believe in the first place ended up in TWI, and even in the corps. If I didn't believe, even chasing someone would never have kept me in, especially if I didn't believe in God. I wouldn't have been able to stand it. Is it really God you hate, or the people? If God, how can you personally hate and have anger towards what does not exist?

Oh yeah, the "I just wanna thank you..." They went on forever. I always wondered, since, at meetings where there were no new people and we were supposedly all believers, why did we do tongues with interpretation, since the tongues were a sign for new people? Why not just skip the tongues and do the prophecy? Usually interpretation and prophecy were one and the same. For prophecy, you just skipped the tongues. I didn't like the "excellor" sessions either. I thought it was totally unnecessary.

So George, what got you in? Just curious. And why, on any single thread about the Bible/Christ/God, et al., do you have to make your nasty remarks regarding people (inferior idiots who believe in the sky god, we are so stupid in your sight), God (he's a jerk), the Bible (its bull$$it) and on and on. I think we all know how you feel by now. There are some great aetheist boards my may really enjoy. They do great mockery of God, Christ, and the Bible on them and you'd fit right in. You can all rage together against the God you don't believe in and who doesn't exist. People try and be polite with you and you continue drop your little turd re your hatred of God in any thread you are in.

Linda Z - love your posts! Don't stop. I know, especially with early corps, there were many nice things he did for his "keeds." I know one of them, he paid to have his teeth fixed - he was a young guy and they were pretty bad. There are good things he did. Narcissists and sociopaths can also be magnanimous - of which VP certainly could be. As the above-poster said, it boosts their image of themselves. My late step mother was a classic narcissist. She could be very giving - but, you owed her down the road - after all she had done for you. I imagine there was a bit of that with VP. DWBH - I have a question for you. When did you start to suspect VP wasn't all he made himself out to be? When did you start having your doubts? In, out, with hindsight? What was the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak, when you thought - this guy's a perv or conman? Just curious, you don't have to answer. But I find it interesting to hear people's perspectives who were close to him.

Your pops was awesome - way to go! He sounds like a wonderful man and you were blessed to have him for your dad. Sounds like he taught you a lot of wonderful things. That's a great point about, where ever VP was not in the early days, and we were left to our own devices, the ministry flourished. It was when he clamped down, made his presence known that things slowed down. After I left NY and moved to Columbus, there was a flourishing TWI presence in the early '70s in the OSU campus area, then my brother pretty much single-handedly opened up the suburban high school we were in - lots of kids got born again. It was wonderful, we were pretty much untouched by VP and his leadership and had a great time. Once he started putting his corps guys in there, or, as in NY, all of a sudden, I now had to go to a twig at so and so's house, and not where my friends went, and other little rules started happening, it put a damper on things. I think its interesting to see also, that the bigger the corps grew, as they were sent out on to the "field" the "movement" of the Word really slowed down, it became more of a maintenance thing, keep the people you have, there would be the occassional new person, classes seemed fewer and far between. Maybe that's just my perception, but things to me were not anything like they were in the "old" days of TWI. Someone once said, TWI went from being an organization that served the people, to an organization that was served by the people - which was its downfall. I think that's true. And yes, if VP wanted something from you, you were treated wonderfully by him.

Excie - LOL!!!! You are too funny, and have a wonderful way of calling a spade a spade! You go.

Lonnie was friends with Doop and Heefner and one of my relatives by marriage who was a TWI "Rev." was also good friends with him in CA. Doop, Heefner, Lonnie - they were all the "foundations" of the Jesus movement. That's why I originally called Jim, who I did not know, to find out the "history" of the movement and get his impressions, incidents, etc. of Lonnie. I thought, we have living men here who God worked with, let's talk to them before its too late. Don't you ever wish you could have talked to Paul, Peter, Bullinger, George Muller, Watchman Nee, etc. - other men of God whom God gave wonderful ministries to? It was a historic revival, I wanted to talk to the original foundational "pillars" before they passed away. I'm glad I did.

I think the only ones here "wound up" are some innies. They're "taking a stand" dontcha know.

Yes, its sad Now I See. Lonnie was kicked out and left to dry by those men. The Vinyard does seem to still be doing well though.

Oldies, I have to disagree. Doop, Heefner, Frisbee and other mens' ministries were flourishing in California way before VP ever came into the picture. VP found out about them by reading an article in a large Christian magazine. He decided that summer he'd go take a look. These men had won thousands to Christ without VP's help. I find it interesting VP couldn't get Lonnie (who he really wanted), as Lonnie was working with two older men (Martin and Wise?) and they saw through VP pretty quickly. Jim said they told VP after session 3 of PFAL they could not work with him and left. Now I see, regarding Legalism in this movement, Jim told me he thought the Republican right wing fundies were one of the direct results of the Jesus movement. Many of the kids and their leaders became very legalistic over the years. I'm not saying I agree, but he seems to think they are a direct result of the Jesus movement. Interesting. Jim still lived by grace - every other sentence, he would say, its grace, its grace, its grace! He loved Jesus Christ personally and was awed at his grace towards him. He hated the legalism he saw in Christianity and what had happened in TWI.

Wing, yes, the meeting you are thinking of is the meeting VP suddenly convened on the west coast, threw out Doop and put his men in there. Doop said it was a great betrayal - that was his word, betrayal. I believe that VP purposely allowed the men with the ministries, Doop on the west coast and Heefner on the east, to do the work for him. He sat back, let them win the people, grow the areas, i.e., do the work he, as an older man, never could have done - i.e, win the kids. When VP found his new loyal yes men, I believe it was calculated. He let the men do the work, then when it was growing and the money was starting to really flow, he stepped in, dismissed them, put Moynihan in NY and I don't know who it was in CA. Then he laughed all the way to the bank. The little keeds making him wealthy. LindaZ, you are right, Socks, DWBH and several others were true gems - and still are!

I too appreciate your response DWBH. Its obvious, over the years, you have done very serious thinking and reevaluation about this and I always enjoy your thoughts. As we talked about once here on GS in a very old thread, for those of us in NY, and me as a "groovy Christian of Rye" it was a "true" revival. You are right, it was the fruit in the lives of my friends in High School under Steve Heefner, and his life and ministry that so impressed me - as I saw genuine change in peoples' lives. I love your thoughts and insight. I asked a similar question to Jim Doop a few months before he passed away. I asked him if he thought VP was a counterfiet. Jim had loved VP like a father, and said he had treated him like a son - for awhile, until VP consolidated the Way East and Way West and had the money sent to him - breaking the promise he had made to Doop and Heefner and throwing them out and replacing them with his guys. Jim had thought about that particular question over the years. He said he did believe VP was a counterfeit. He also believed a section of the "true" revival of God had been hijacked, so to speak by VP.

Groucho, I still have my copy of the "Secret Constitution" we received in our first year in residence in the 7th corps. That would have been '76. It was supposedly the Constitution as Nixon wanted it to be and which he was going to force on us after a coup and he became dictator. On the inside cover, there is the order form to subscribe to the Spotlight magazine. Of course, none of us back then had any idea what it meant.