Sunesis

Oh Hell Noez...

Extremist, in answer to your question, yes. He and his trustees had a "woman in every port" so to speak all over the country and certain gals in the corps. How do I know? I was in one of the early corps. I knew people. I had my women friends tell me about their escapades. I sometimes think I was the only woman who said no to him. Long story, search the threads, its all there.

Hi Twinky! It has been awhile... Hope you are well.

Oh yes. A false prophet, Satan's angels masquerade as angels of light. (This is a bad paraphrase).

I do believe the Jesus Movement was a revival of God. Before Jimmy Dopp passed, I had been studying the "movement" and Lonnie Frisbee. He was the man God used. I don't care what he was or wasn't, he won thousands, he had a true ministry. But I wanted to know more. I wanted to talk to true men of God, those on par with (or maybe not totally) the Apostles of the first century. I believe we had some of those people still living, who had been a part of this revival and I wanted to talk to some of them before they passed. Excath was nice enough to arrange a phone call and an introduction to Jimmy Dopp for me. I got in the Word in Rye, NY under the Heefners - my first hearing of the Word was Steve preaching in Tim Bishop's living room and I was electrified - why had no one told me this before???!!! I was a high school Junior. This is just background. Anyway, I had been musing about the great apostles and men of the 1st century, true men of God who were given extrordinary apostolic power to preach the Word of God and Christ to the known world. After learning about Lonnie I had to know more. My brother-in-law from California knew Lonnie but couldn't tell me much. After Exci connected me with Jimmy, we had several, for me, life changing conversations. We'd talk until the early hours of the morning or until he fell asleep. We connected and we had amazing conversations. He told me of the House of Acts back then and how Lonnie had a little basement room. You had to go through the living room to get to the stairs that led to Lonnie's room. He said in the evening they'd be sitting there and kids would start walking through the living room, nodding good evening and just keep going, Lonnie would preach to 30, 40, 50 kids at a time and after it was over, would come upstairs and say, 30 people born again tonight! or 25 people, whatever the number, the man had a true ministry. They witnessed to everyone in the Haight including Charlie (Manson) who they eventually had to kick out - LOL to Jimi Hendrix. The Word spread like wildfire, then on to the rest of the country. VP read an article about this movement and hightailed it to SF. He played the PFAL for Lonnie and I believe it was a person named Chuck Wise who was an older man who was a leader in the movement and worked with Lonnie and other "main players" in the movement. Lonnie and Chuck said they would not be a part of it, but VP did get Heefners and others and invited the to the farm. The rest is history for The Way. VP was able to co-op a small section of this movement. The rest didn't follow him. This is all what JIm told me. He was there. He also hosted VP. Also, while during the day the wives did things together, VP had Jimmy take him down to the porno movie houses in the Tenderloin district. Jim thought this was very weird, but VP soon went back to Ohio and he didn't think too much about it. I do believe the Jesus Movement was a true revival. Those of us still living have hopefully tried to teach our children and grandchildren. As long as we live, I do not think we will see another revival like that in our lifetimes. That's enough for tonight.

DWBH - I will never forget your teaching to our corps on a class you did on the Temple. It was amazing. Frat doorprize - LOL!

It seems as we all age, its not that we learn "new" things to satisfy itching ears, but I think that I see and understand what I know much deeper. There's a wonderful "old school" writer named Arthur Pink I discovered a few years ago. His book on the Holy Spirit is one of the best I've ever read - really opened my eyes about what the Holy Spirit does in the world and in our hearts. I got it on Amazon, you might enjoy it. Thank you for your kind words everyone. It has been a few years since I've been here and I'm glad to see you all :)

Awesome post by DWBH. I don't believe VP knew Christ. If he did not know Him, how could he possibly have taught him to others? He didn't. Christ was glossed over. He was reduced to an incantation at the end of a prayer. TWI was always about God and the Bible. God's heart - Christ - was missing. I have often thought over the years, the biggest disservice done to people who wanted to know God, who came to TWI, was that they were not taught who truly Christ is. I remember during my time in TWI hearing other Christians, not in TWI, talk about their relationship with Christ. I always wondered - what are they talking about? What am I missing? When I left TWI, the very first thing God taught me was who Christ is. I mulled over this idea, this strange thought for months. I had put my Bible down and also hadn't read it in months. One rainy day, in my little studio apartment on E. 95th Street in Manhattan I read the Gospel of John - fireworks went off in my mind - Oh, I see... I have heard, but now I see. Now, I understand when people talk about their relationship with Christ. He is God's heart, he is the mediator between God and Man. We had God, we had the "Word," but we didn't have the Heart - Christ. Many people can know the Bible, preach it and yet still not believe it, not really. False teachers come from within the body, not from without. The Bible can give the one preaching a nice moral framework to live by, nice things to think about and one can try and make his flesh live by it, but without Christ - God's heart and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us - the flesh and its sin nature will always win, in the end. You cannot change your nature, your will cannot change your nature, your flesh cannot change your nature, your cat cannot change its nature - its nature is cat - our nature is fallen. It is the Holy Spirit that Christ gave that transforms our flesh and nature and conforms us, regenerates us and reconstitutes in us the Image of God we were originally created in. It is Christ who gave us back our lost Holiness. It is the Holy Spirit, the Breath of God, dwelling in us, who gets down and dirty with us in the depths of our souls and transforms us into a new creature in ways our flesh cannot. We become a new creation. A masterpiece of God to be unveiled one day in Glory. VP focused on Paul. His sin he could not keep hidden - not in the long run.

I spent a lot of years observing the ordained clergy in TWI and knowing many of them personally. I can understand why VP ordained the early 1-5 corps people - he was growing an organization and needed to have trusted leaders who would carry out his wishes. He needed a structure he could work with on the "field." That said, many of them were nice people but - looking back, I saw very few "gift ministries" at work. Although I will say, I do believe Steve Heefner, Jim Dopp, Donnie Fugit and a few others did have true, Godly ministries. I'm sure there were others but I did not personally know them. In fact in the years after that, during my time in the corps and on staff, there was only one person that I believed God showed me that they had a ministry and what it was - and she was a female who was never ordained by TWI. And I didn't tell her until 20 years later. As the ministry grew and the corps grew there were many people that quite frankly, I wondered how these some of these guys were getting ordained. As I would speak to later corps men, 10th, 11th and 12th, it seemed that ordination had evolved to become a carrot on a stick - it was what the men all aspired to, it was a huge motivator that VP used. It was the highest pinnacle of success in TWI. You had arrived. I cannot tell you how many men told me they were going to run class after class on the field and get their ordination. Well alrighty then... As I've thought about it over the years, there were very few of the "top" men who reached my heart in a spiritual way and affected true Godly change in my heart during their teachings - maybe I was just hard-hearted. But in the later years for me there were two. One was a 6th corps man and the other had been ordained when he had been a mainstream denominational minister. Other than that, some teachers were comedians, some full of fury, some boring, and ocassionally someone would be truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and reach people's hearts - they were the exception. It was human nature though to try and observe what ministry someone might have had - after all, if VP ordained them they must have had something. But over the years, I saw they didn't. In fact, they way I saw it was this: 1. Apostle - reserved for VP and VP alone. No one other than him had this one. 2. Prophet - this was a highly sought after ministry. Many rude, nasty guys had this one - because, after all, as VP taught, prophets were hard to live with and didn't take guff from anyone. 3. Evangelist - if you were good at running lots of classes on the field, you had this one. 4. Teacher - a lot of people thought they had this one, but really, it was mostly reserved for the research dept. or a couple of other revs who had a reputation. 5. Pastor. This one applied mostly the female reverends. They would spend time, talk, "counsel" and just have those healing one-on-ones with hugs. Its was the girls' ministry. I think though, if you did make that commitment and choose to be ordained, you were TWI's for life. It was a huge commitment. I had a person come to me who had his limb leader extend the invitation to be ordained at the upcoming corps week. I told him to think carefully. He was running an area and was trying to get a career going. I told him it was an honor - but - if he accepted to forget his career - it was obvious TWI leadership had other plans for his life. He would have to give up his career. If he got ordained and later decided to still give his secular career a shot he would be ostracized and have to live with the knowledge and guilt that he was "copped out." Could he live with that? He declined the offer. All in all, I don't think anyone ordained by VP, who I believe now was a wolf in sheeps clothing, has any business calling themselves "Reverend."

I think the best Way musician/singer was Stevie Kay Louis (is that right - I'm getting old). No offense Ted :) What a voice. She was mega talented, and, as so often happened with talented musicians who did not toe the TWI Way Prod "party line" - she was gone after a few years. She sang a song on a Sunday night service called "One Day at a Time" Lord Jesus... I listened to that song almost every day of my WOW year - sometimes it was the only thing that kept me going that year.

Actually, I memorized the Jet Style packing notes and tossed those! I think that's the only thing I still use from my "training."

Thank you for taking the time to answer Geisha :)

Weirwille's Rosebud: Harley. I had an interesting talk with the hospice "faith" lady who counseled many dying people. When VP started whining about how he "wished he was the man he knew to be" - I think he was starting to freak. The end was coming and his whole life had been a fraud - a wolf in sheep's clothing. The end is coming, no way out, and he can't change a thing. He railed and raged on his way out, but kept the basketball or football going on tv.

Yes Excie, its getting time for me to go through my stuff, some still boxed, and let it go.

I put it down for about 6 months and read all of Carl Jung's works and many of Freud's. Who knows why, I just found Jung fascinating. I basically put all TWI teaching away. Later, I started to get a thought - strange, against what TWI taught - and started going to the Bible to see if it were so... That's how I got back into reading. I let the Holy Spirit guide me as to what to read now. Not a "Bible Study Program." It took a few more years to realize the Bible is a book of prophecy - then pieces started making even more sense.

Whoa... There's an unexpected blast from the past. I knew most of them from the time I was in high school, several of them very well and we were friends over the years. All of them truly were individuals. I look at Del and remember when I wandered into a motorcylcle store with my little sister in high school, he was there (for some reason) and safely escorted us out. I remember in residence, when he was there, on summer nights we'd go out, sit on a hill and he'd speak of God - profound. How many times does a nobody kid get to hear a prophet's heart? (yes, I believe he did have a ministry - one of the few who really did). Carla - adored my young sister, and when VP would send the corps witnessing in my town, she and others would stay at our house. She was such a blessing. Randy - during the CG meetings near the end afer POP - he was the first one to say - this is BS - enough - and walk. Bo - I could always hang out and talk to him, through him got to know Stanley - who was just a gem. I've often thought, VP should have stopped after the 5th corps - shut it down. They were leaders and ministers. After that, the corps became this huge program to bring in more money for TWI. Those early people were part of the "jesus movement" from the mid-60s to early '70s - a true revival, with called out people by God sent to reach a generation - these are the people that VP "hijacked" - so to speak. I wish them all the best.

MJ, Pond - its really great to see you again. Thank you for sharing.

Very interesting posts Steve! Where did you learn about what the words originaly meant and how they've been changed? I'd like to learn more. T-Bone - good to see you again. I have been reading more of Ross' books. I have a feeling we read the same one - "The Genesis Question." A really excellent book that does a good job of dispelling the "gap" theory, and shows how, the earth and life evolved naturally from the fossil record. Wonderful book. One thing he said really made me think. If you look at the hominid chart I posted early in this threat, it looks like much "experimenting" going on - lots of different groups, etc. Plus, in the fossil record - creation after creation whether plant or animal, one dies out, another shows up. But, the point he made is: God is Elohim - The Creator. After he created, on the 7th day, Creator God - Elohim - RESTED. Think about that. He rested. God is no longer "creating." He is at "rest." Man now creates. He creates life - millions of babies born every day, he builds buildings, he harnesses energy - Man is now the "creature" who creates. When does God finish his rest and begin creating again? In Revelation: Behold, I make all things new. He goes into creation mode again - and we, his redeemed, get to "behold it" and "watch" as he does a "new thing" so no one, neither angel nor new creation will ever again doubt that He is The Creator. That's why, you have massive creation - then, after Adam - it stopped. God rested on the seventh day - the Sabbath. He is still at rest. There have been no newly created species, animals, plants from Adam's time on. Sure, there have been discoveries of things that have been here, that man never saw, deep in the forests and oceans that he discovers - but the "creating" of new life has stopped. Its in man's hands now. Also, I still think it was possible for Satan to fall anytime from Gen 1:1 on - before or after the creation of our universe. Who knows if all of the fossil record were all Elohim's creation. You may like Ross's "Beyond the Cosmos" dealing with dimensions. God outside of time and space... in that arena, outside of our dimension, he is unlimited. We always seem to want to bring God down to our level.

Some wonderful things to think about you two. I know someone like the last quote Cynic - they do wonderful things, but its to show how wonderful they are. I will take time to check out the link you provided.

Thanks for your kind words too Kit. I had debated for awhile if I would answer, as it seems most of the Christians have departed GS for awhile now - or as a poster today said in the Open forum - doctrinal has "lost its fire." There are reasons too for that I believe. But, I love discussing the Bible. I think, most people in the western world, when it comes to the topic of "hell" immediately think of this place of horrid torture. These thoughts and visions all basically go back to one man - Dante - and his book: Dante's Inferno written in the 1400s I believe. I have read his book, The Inferno, and he truly did have an amazing imagination of what hell would be like. But, it was just his imagination - and yet, people think its true. Dante's vision and tortures people experienced in the differing "circles" of hell, is the dominant theme of "hell" today in most people's minds. Even the word "hell" is something that came along later. The Bible talks about the grave, sheol, the pit, etc. I think, at times, God give people glimpses of heaven - and hell. We hear of many Near Death Experiences (NDEs) - so many that its a common thing now - people almost die, have a vision, go to another place, dimension, experience peace, love, etc. But what you rarely hear about, and this does happen quite frequently, are the people who have NDEs but go to the wrong place - LOL! Whoa! Surprise!! One doctor talked about a patient who was having a heart attack. The man would go under, they'd bring him back and he would beg him not to let him go back there - save me. Each time he was brought back, the man begged. The man did live and became a devout Christian. There's a link I will find for you, that I ran across a few years ago. It was a Pastor Shaw, who in the late 1800s, had people send him "deathbed" stories because he wanted to find out if there is a difference between believers and unbelievers when they died. This was when people died at home surrounded by friends and family on their "deathbed" at home, not like today. Well, the Christian accounts, after a while were pretty much the same, but - it was amazing, because when the ones who did not believe were on their deathbed, people would say, well, its not too late - you can still be saved. Every single one of them said, yes, it is - it is too late! and they then told the time and place where they knew they had to make a decision - the Holy Spirit tugging on their heart - and when they had rejected him. Every single one, looking back, knew exactly when they had to make that choice. It was fascinating. Every single one knew the decision they had made, and they all took full responsibility for their choice. One young woman said she just ignored it until the call finally went away after a few weeks. Others were angry because their friends said, don't worry, you can convert on your deathbed, and they realized - it was too late, they couldn't believe. There were about 100 accounts and the stories were fascinating. I guess, to me, the interesting part after reading these accounts, was that there seems to be a threshhold - a line - and when they crossed it - there was no turning back. When Christ knocks on our hearts - some open the door, some close it. There literally comes a time, when God gives a person up (Romans) to do what they really want to do, without God's interference. The threshhold was crossed, and they were glad of it - glad to be free from that annoying whisper of the Holy Spirit. I really do believe that Christ knocks so many times, but there comes a point, where the Holy Spirit departs and there will not be another chance. The mind has been made up. Nothing will change it. He cannot overide one's free will. I asked the hospice lady, the same question when my father was dying a few years ago - she counseled dying people in matters of faith. I asked her the same question - did she see a difference? Without hesitation, she said, "oh yes." We talked for awhile. But, no matter if one believes or does not - we do not know, we cannot judge - only God knows the heart of an individual.

Kit, I have read several wonderful books on this topic. I think the best one was "The Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion" (available on Amazon) by a man who had been born again as a child but grew up absolutely hating and mocking Christians. There was another book, I forget the title. Also, John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress had a vision of Hell - this was back in the 1600s I believe. I later read an account by a nun in the 19th century, but it was Bunyan's vision plagerized (no internet back then - she didn't think she'd get caught). The thing I found interesting about these separate, totally unrelated visions, was that they all seemed to mesh. Centuries apart, they all saw basically the same thing. I do believe in these times, God does give dreams and visions to people for those who wish to learn. I also know, people have jumped on the bandwagon. Some are true, some are imagination. But I do think God is trying to tell people, life and creation is not always going to go on as it is. Once I realized the whole Bible was a book of prophecy, some things things fell into place for me. What is the theme? There are basically three themes. 1. Mankind is a fallen race that God wishes to restore and to dwell with them eternally; 2. In order to do this, he will send a redeemer (who is the subject of the prophecy); and 3. The Messiah's message is a "New Creation" coming. Literally a new Heaven and New earth. The laws of physics and things as we know it will not apply. It will be a new creation - one we cannot imagine. The Redeemer, the subject of the prophecy has one message: There is a Kingdom coming. Believe in me and enter in and live eternally. That's it. Its simple. That was Christ's message. I believe the new coming creation involves new dimensions. We read in Rev., that after all rebellion and sin is finally put down and the new Heaven and Earth are made, that several things "survive" so to speak, and enter into the new creation: Angels; those who believed the Messiah who is the Christ, and the "Lake of Fire." The Lake of Fire and its inhabitants is a place, in another dimension which is "outside" the City (Rev. 22:15) and new creation wherein dwells righteousness. JJ, I do not believe it is unloving. I think people, who hate God, who want nothing to do with him, who have rejected his offer of eternal life - there are people who have demonstrated their preference for anything other than eternal fellowship with God and with all who love light. For them, the experience of forced fellowship with God for an eternity would be less tolerable than hell. These individuals do not want to be in God's presence and would find heaven and his presence repugnant. Thus, to be fair, God cannot morally command them to believe and dwell with him. It would be "unfair." It would be a gross violation of your free will. I believe the Lake of Fire (whatever that means - I think it symbolizes something we can't imagine) is a place where people and demons get what they want above all else: Freedom. Yes Freedom. In that dimension, they get freedom from the Will and Rule of God and freedom from the restraints of conscience and the voice of the Holy Spirit. God yields to the desires of his committed "rebels" by withdrawing forever the influence of His Spirit from their beings. An individual who knowingly refused to worship God in this life will never change his mind. The price for entrance into the new creation - worship of God - is a price too high to pay. As Hebrews says: "No sacrifice for sins is left" for those who knowingly discard God's sacred gift. As far as "torment" goes - the greek word can also mean an immobilization, a distraction, a restraint. I.e., you're thrown in prison. You're a nice guy. There are 8 men who would love to do things to you. At this point, for your safety, the most "loving" thing the guards could do is restrain them, maybe a leg iron so you can sleep at night instead of having to stay awake all night. God says, at the great white throne judgment men will be judged by their works. Many are violent people, many are just average Joes who wanted nothing to do with God. God, in his love and mercy has put just enough "torment" or distraction or restraints to keep in check the horrors that could happen in a place where there is no God, love, holy spirit or conscience. I think the Comforter that was sent into the world, God's Spirit today, blunts the impact of sin and evil in this world (we can't see the spiritual things going on in the dimension of the heavenly), and thus, we tend underestimate evil and its horror and minimize what Christ took on himself on the cross. But, each one of us does get to choose where we would like to spend eternity. The choice is ours. Those who "opt out" of redemption and eternity with God and Christ may not like being restrained in another dimension - but they will always be eternally proud of their rebellion against God - their minds will never change. So, I think its fair. My question would be: Why, would someone who dislikes God and cannot worship him - even want to spend eternity with him? It would be like forcing a committed vegetarian to eat meat - they would be repulsed. Interesting topic Kit.

That's awesome!!!! Good for you John! Enjoy your prize

I never knew Linder, Groucho - he must have been after my time. But I agree, he does sound like a major douche bag. I think TWI had its day. Does anyone in the country know who they are anymore? To think some old german hick on a farm was so revered and worshippped by many.

Ok, now that I know the background - you made the totally right decision. I had no idea the background information. I wouldn't set foot, send a gift, or possibly even have responded. Good for you!

I still can't see it either. When I click the link I get an error. Oh well.