Mark Sanguinetti

I am back from my business trip. I was in Fresno at the Northern California Youth Soccer Annual Meeting where I had a booth promoting my company which sells and distributes athletic uniforms and equipment. Here is a link to my company web site. Garth has worked on it some. http://dynamoathletic.com/ With regard to the present study of aion and aionios, here is an additional study. The web site link is at the end. Have a Pattern of Sound Words Concerning Aion and Aionios by Dean Hough The most commonly used Greek-English lexicons used today by Christians are those by Thayer (1886) and by Arndt and Gingrich (1957). The definitions given for the noun, aion, and the adjective, aionios, are widely accepted as authoritative and determinative for the teaching of everlasting punishment. This becomes for many believers a strong bulwark against taking scriptural passages such as John 12:32; Romans 5:18,19; 11:32-36; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; 2 Corinthians 5:14; Ephesians 1:10,11; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 1:20; 1 Timothy 2:4; 4:9,10; and 1 John 2:2, at face value. What is claimed for Matthew 25:46 or 2 Thessalonians 1:9, for example, is seen as limiting the meaning of the former passages. Concerning the noun, aion, however, both lexicons (and all other such works) allow for an interpretation that would harmonize with the teaching of eventual, universal salvation. Thayer's lexicon gives as its first definition of aion the sense of "age." This is the second definition (of four) given in the more recent lexicon edited by Arndt and Gingrich. Hence a passage such as Matthew 12:32 could be understood as referring to the present age and the age to come, which would not, in itself, keep us from taking Romans 3:21-24 and 5:12-19 in reference to universal justification. But in both of these lexicons, the adjective, aionios, is presented as having three meanings, in none of which the limiting sense of "age" is carried over from the noun. The adjective, it is claimed, means: (1) without beginning; or (2) without end; or (3) without beginning or end. This may strike others, as it does me, as a rather dubious development of an adjective's meaning in relation to its noun form. But apart from that, this threefold definition simply does not work in several New Testament passages (and many other passages in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint). The usages of aionios in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; and Philemon 15, seem especially puzzling in view of the claims of these two lexicons. It certainly is difficult to understand how the keeping of a secret can have no beginning, and indeed if the secret is revealed, we must assume its being kept as a secret has come to an end. No wonder the KJV of Romans 16:25 reads "since the world began," even though the Greek speaks of "times" described as aionios. The RV is more faithful to the threefold definition, referring to a mystery kept "through times eternal" but now manifested, but that has the great disadvantage of making no sense whatever if these times are to be understood as either without beginning or without end, or, even more puzzling, without beginning and end. In such cases, Bible commentators generally ignore the threefold definition given in the lexicons and make their own for these particular passages. In the NICNT volume on Romans, John Murray explains that "times eternal" refers "to the earlier ages of this world's history" (THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS, vol.2, p.241). Such ages would obviously have both a beginning and end. Notice how A. T. Robertson handles the adjective in his WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. In commenting on Matthew 25:46 he follows the threefold definition given above, writing: "The word aionios . . . means either without beginning or without end or both" (vol.1, p.202). But in commenting on Titus 1:2 he insists that the words "before times eternal" refer "Not to God's purpose before time began . . . but to definite promises (Rom.9:4) made in time." Here he explains Paul's words as signifying "Long ages ago" (vol.4, p.597). Some other commentators may try to explain that Paul is referring to something that God promised in "eternity past" but for most of us it does seem difficult to grasp any meaning in the idea of a promise being made and kept without any beginning of its being made. In the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, "The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened" in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use "the eternity formulae" which he had previously explained as "the course of the world" perceived as "a series of smaller aiones" (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels "reminds us of the non-biblical usage" of this word, which he had earlier found to signify "lifelong" or "enduring" (p.208). This is not to suggest any particular agreement with all these various attempts to define aion and aionios. In fact, the confusion created by these attempts to preserve some sense of everlastingness in these terms makes the attempts rather suspicious. Putting all the evidence of the usage of these terms in the New Testament together, it seems to me that the threefold definition of aionios as signifying without beginning, or without end, or without begining and end, must be dismissed as inadequate at the very least. Furthermore, to add further definitions that are not at all clear in themselves, as Sasse does, only adds to the confusion. Of all widely used, modern attempts to define these terms, I have found the concluding definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) most helpful. Concerning ai?s we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . . (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28). http://www.saviour-of-all.org/aion.html

Thank you Steve Lortz for participating in this forum. Def59, it is not my job to publicly repremand people in this forum. I must admit though, occasionally I do this. Yes, Chuck has reacted emotionally in this forum and this is mixed in with some good well researched material by him. If you have been offended by his emotional outbursts, I am sure in his heart he is sorry for this. However, Chuck has confided to me by private message that he has been condemned and tortured by people in his life and in his impressionable youth preaching hell fire. Perhaps he is now experiencing an emotional flash back of sorts. Chuck now and over the last number of years upon looking at their position of hell fire and comparing it to other biblical material now disagrees with their basic premises as do I. As far as my participation in this thread is concerned, I will continue to post information. However, my work schedule will not allow me to post again today. I have a business trip for the weekend, leave tomorrow morning and I have to be ready. However, I will look at more material that may be pertinent to this thread tonight with some friends at our weekly bible study. If we come up with anything of interest I may be able to post it over the weekend from my hotel room while I am on the road. Until I write again please play nicely everyone. Also remember as 1 Corin. 13 says "we see through a glass darkly" and this can be especially true with regard to prophetic knowledge.

Def, you seem to be having a great deal of difficulty in comprehending this material presented here. Much more so than other posters. This may be different than what you have been previously taught at your church, but there is enough simple word studies and the like on this forum thread for you to have at least learned something. Nevertheless you still seem to be having a great deal of difficulty with even the more simpler explanations here. Hence, this is what I recommend for you. Copy and paste my posts here which should total about 20 pages, to your word processing software. Print out one or more paper copies of this. Then take this copy to church with you this Sunday. Have your pastor or someone else that you value the scriptural opinion of look it over for you. Yes, they will need to actually read the material including the word studies and articles. Get their opinion. Then get back to us here on what you and your church representative(s) learn. Def, I may be reading you wrong, but you strike me as the type of person that is afraid to believe anything as Christian doctrine that is not the status quo for your church or immediate circle. Hence, here is your opportunity to get the support or feedback that you seem to need.

Are you now denying the work of Jesus Christ in saving man with Jesus' life, death and resurrection? What is the point of Jesus Christ's life at all? Was it all for naught? Are you learning anything at all on this forum? Do you want to learn anything?

Sure there is consequences for unbelief Def. Being part of the 1000 year millennial kingdom should be a lot better than your typical 70 years of existence now. If people miss out on this it is going to be a great loss. I want to be part of this even if I only shine shoes or fix sandals. However, as Chuck said how is an eternity of torment a just penalty for 70 years of sin? Even under the Old Testament Law the amount of lashes with a wip a person was given as a penalty was strictly limited to 40. Someone giving more lashes than this prescribed amount had to face the same penalty of 40 lashes as the person originally receiving the lashes. Even in the case of those receiving the death penalty, under the Old Testament Law this was to be relatively quick and not drawn out over days and days of agony. As I recall it was only the heathen nations that practiced torture and combined this with the death penalty. Perhaps we should become better acquainted with the Old Testament law in seeing what was prescribed as a death penalty. Why do you think God would grant more mercy now in this imperfect and sometimes heathenistic world than one would receive in his future kingdom and New Heaven and Earth?

O.K. Def. That sounds reasonable. Spend some time studying the material on this thread. There has been quite a bit already. I would especially recommend that you participate in some of the word studies that I have offered. For example, the words "fire" (Strong's number 4442) and "age" (Strong's numbers 165 and 166). Do you have any bible study software or biblical reference books to help you with your study? This should give you some kind of a background for the other material. If you have any more questions I will try to help you.

Thank you Steve. Coming from you, someone who is as spiritually insightful as anyone on this board, that is a compliment.

CWF, did you know that the Thayer's lexicon definition of the Greek word translated as punishment in Matthew 25:46 is first listed as "correction"? Here is the word from the Thayer's lexicon. NT:2851 kolasis, kolaseoos, hee correction, punishment, penalty: Matt 25:46 (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft) There are only 2 usages of this Greek word for "punishment" in the New Testament so we don't have a lot to go by. However, from the above this could mean correction first and foremost and only secondarily punishment or penalty. This should be a considerable distinction.

CWF, I have already offered 15 pages of material and bible verses to look at. Chuck has already offered over 20 pages. Sorry we don't have a nice neat little formula for you like "Believing equals Receiving" or "Needs and Wants Parallel". Instead we have offered a number of verses with explanations for yours and others consideration on this subject. I was saving the writing below because I thought there was already enough material on this thread to digest for awhile and perhaps people should reread some of the posts. Nevertheless below is something on a verse (Matthew 25:46) that is used to try to prove eternal torment for most of the population. The link to this is below. An Analytical Study of Words Chapter Ten Bibles Without "Everlasting Punishment" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages." -New Testament in Modern Speech "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." -Concordant Literal Translation "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." -Young's Literal Translation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is sad to note, but nevertheless true, that most Christians do not realize there are very dramatic differences in translation from one Bible to another. We have heard so often that the "inspired" or "inerrant" Word of God is basically the same in all translations. This is just not true. But one will not see this unless they place several side by side and make some comparisons. Listed below are a few translations which we will compare to the King James Bible on the verse Matthew 25:46. Concerning the duration of chastening, Matt. 25:46 says (KJV), "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment." "And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life." The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46: "And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life." Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words: "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, wherewith one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has: "And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'" The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering: "And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says: "And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages." Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age (and elsewhere) This Bible does not use the word "Hell" at all. Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows, "And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life." Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse, "And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life." It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria." The Concordant Version (1930): "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says: "And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life." Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse, "and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life." The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of the incorrect and quite frankly, blasphemous "everlasting punishment." This phrase "everlasting punishment," when one really thinks about it, renders the work of Christ worthless. It says that His forgiveness, His love, His grace, His mercy, the power of His blood, all these and more become limited when one translates "aionion kolasin" as "everlasting punishment." "And these shall go away -abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life." There are other Bible translations besides these which have either completely eliminated the concept of eternal punishment from their pages, or have made great strides towards wiping this pagan concept off God's Word. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment" and "Hell." The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that. In summary, then, as we gain more knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages, the pagan concept of "eternal punishment" is becoming manifest as a pagan concept which cannot be found in the original languages of the Bible. Therefore, more and more of the translations printed since the King James Bible of 1611 have dramatically departed from the King's translators translations for words closer to the actual Greek and Hebrew meanings rather than "tradition." The word "Hell," for example, has almost completely disappeared from most translations in the Old Testament. It occurs in most translations only 11 to 14 times and not at all in many translations. The day will come when the pagan concept of "Hell" will no longer be found in any Bible translation. It wasn't in the original languages. The foundation of the Bible, that is, the Old Testament, knows of no such place. Why should we perpetuate Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Babylonian, and Angle-Saxon mythology? This is where the concept came from. Here is where the word "Hell," the goddess of the underworld, came from. Leave it there. This idea does not belong on the previous pages of our Bibles. http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/abbott/abbot10.htm

Below is an article that explains the difference between the related Greek words "aion" and "aionion". The web site link is at the end. Eonian life, not eternal life It is common knowledge among students of the Bible that, following this evil-ridden existence, there will be a one-thousand year kingdom on earth (Revelation 5:10; 20:4). Jesus referred to this as "the coming eon" (Mark 10:30). This gives way to a new heavens and a new earth (Revelation 21:1), which is yet another eon (Ephesians 2:7). Those who receive faith now live during these two future eons. This is the life Paul spoke of when he said, "the gift of God is eonian life" (Romans 6:23). Jesus spoke continually of this life. This is the way that Jesus referred to as "narrow" (Matthew 7:14). The narrow way had to do with Israel and the few who would enter immortal into that millennial kingdom, not with the eternal fate of the majority of mankind (Matthew 15:24). The word eon will be strange to some. It mustn’t be any longer. This noun and its adjective ("eonian") appear in the New Testament over 190 times (in the original Greek) as aion and aionion. Why haven’t many recognized them in our English versions? Because "expert translators" have decided to interpret rather than translate. More on this in a moment. No two words in the history of man have been so tortured as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world. Eternal torment is built on the sand of mistranslation, slipped easily upon saints who would like eternal torment to be true, if only to anoint themselves "divine messengers" on a "great commission," mandated "by God" to lord fear and power over lesser men under the misnomer: "evangelism." It is where the King James and other versions unaccountably use eternal and everlasting (for aionion) to describe the chastisement of the wicked that a false Scriptural veneer is lent to an otherwise insane (and inane) concept. What is an eon? The following considerations are vitally important to your peace and understanding of God. Our English word eon is derived from the Greek word aion. (Remember, the New Testament was originally written in Greek.) It even sounds like it and is nearly spelled the same. Obviously, it would be the perfect translation of aion. An eon is "a duration of time." So is an aion. (See W.E. Vine’s An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Vine defines aion as "an age, era; signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.") Had this word been left to speak for itself (the Concordant Version does that, putting "eon" for aion, always, and "eonian" for aionion, always), the false terror of eternal torment would never have arisen to deceive the saints and turn the world from God. Several versions do translate it consistently. (Besides the Concordant Literal New Testament, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, and Young’s Literal Translation.) The ineptness of the orthodox translators can be easily verified. Look up the words "ages," "world," "eternal," "everlasting" and "forever" in either a Strong’s or a Young’s concordance. (These reference tools list every word in the King James Version and their source word from the original languages.) You will find that these words, a veritable hodge-podge, are all interpretations of this single Greek noun (aion) and its adjective. Such interpretations are not only disparate, they are asinine. The same Greek word cannot mean ages in one place and forever in another. Ages have to do with time and plurality, while forever is the opposite of time and defies duplication. (If the reader wishes to imagine two forevers, he may try it. Minors attempting the feat will require adult supervision.) Can one word mean both day and night? Neither can one word mean both time and no time. An orthodox bias has made fools of otherwise intelligent men. Yet here is the rub. Even where the scriptures speak of the life of believers as eternal, an error is an error. Eonian a timely word Eonian life is falsely reported in the King James version and elsewhere as "eternal life." It will come as a shock to many to learn that neither Jesus nor Paul ever spoke of eternal life but rather eonian life, or that life which endures through two future eons (the thousand-year kingdom eon, already discussed, and the new heavens and new earth). If this disclosure spoils the meter in some beloved Christian hymns, let truth conquer cadence. The initial knee-jerk reaction to this truth is that, since eon and eonian pertain to time, the saints must not live forever. This is faulty reasoning. The saints do live forever, but not because of eonian life. The saints live forever because they are made immortal (1 Corinthians 15:54). Immortal people can’t die, no matter how hard they try. Eonian life defines life during the coming eons only. As not everyone has this, this term distinguishes those who do. As the eons end (and so they will, see 1 Corinthians 10:11 and Hebrews 9:26), so ends the appellation eonian life. And yet the saints live on, for at the consummation of the eons death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:24-26). If you have enough water to make it to a well, do you die of thirst? Neither does a saint who has eonian life die when the eons yield to deathlessness. Many suppose that eonian must denote endlessness when describing God, as in Romans 16:26- "the eonian God." (King James wrongly makes this, "the everlasting God.") No. It’s another overreaction. This verse isn’t trying to tell anyone that God lives forever. Everyone already knows God lives forever. Psalm 102:27 testified long ago that "His years shall have no end." It’s old news. The vital question is: Does God sit on high, removed from our struggles in time, or does He care what happens during the eons? He cares. Thus, He is the eonian God. This does not limit Him to the eons any more than "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" limits Him to those patriarchs. What about His everlasting mercy? This, too, is limited to the eons. (And yet, verify this, the church would rather teach a lie than rewrite a hymn.) Mercy presupposes unworthies, of which someday there will be a blessed lack. Eternal mercy demands eternal imperfection. Mercy finds no object when all return to Him. Won’t the saints reign "forever and ever" as King James reports in Revelation 22:5? No. They will reign for the eons. Reign presupposes insubjection, another deficiency unworthy of Christ. Not even Christ reigns forever and ever. scripture says that "He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25). The King James Version contradicts itself on this count. The KJV translation of Revelation 11:15 reads, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." Yet their rendition of 1 Corinthians 15:25 reads, "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet." An accurate translation of Revelation 11:15 eliminates this discrepancy. The Concordant version has, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord’s and His Christ’s, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." (As the phrase "king of kings" highlights one king among others, thus also "eons of the eons" highlights two eons among others. Neither phrase carries the idea of "an endless succession," as commonly supposed.) Discrepancy disappears when God’s words are respected. It’s a slap in the face of Christ to say that Christ reigns forever. Does He never perfect the universe? He does. He will one day subject everything to God, who will then be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:27-28). With no more insubjection, reign becomes impossible. Christ reigns so well during the eons that He eliminates the need for it for eternity. Those not blessed with belief now miss these glorious, future eons. They will be dead while the eons run their course, unaware of the passage of time. Is it their fault? No. But Christ died for them just the same. While they miss these eons, they certainly do not miss living with God for eternity, for He is "the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10). Note that the inspired statement does not say He is the Savior exclusively of believers. That would be the lie of Christianity. He indeed saves all, but only those who believe now live through the two future eons. This is the "especially" salvation of the context. This news should relieve the troubled saint who, as he has been reading this chapter, has ruminated to himself, "You mean they are going to be where I am?" Happy day; they will be dead while you live through the eons. The gift of belief grants you eonian life; they don’t have it. Yet they rise to immortality later at a time known in scripture as "the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:24), when God abolishes the one thing holding them back: death (1 Corinthians 15:26). If they don’t rise to immortality, then God isn’t their Savior and the scriptures lie. I prefer to believe that religion lies. ALL things © copyright 2001-2004 by Martin Zender. All rights reserved. http://martinzender.com/eonion_life_not_eternal_life.htm

Def, I am giving you another chance to re-evaluate your false religion of fire and torment. Below I am reposting scriptures that show usages of the exact same word used in the book of Revelation phrase "Lake of Fire". Again the word for "fire" is in quotation marks. This is the exact same Greek word from the text which you say is so precious to you. Among other things these verses show the following: 'baptizing with fire', 'burning up the chaff with fire', 'cloven tongues like fire appearing on the apostles on the day of Pentecost', 'an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire' (Was this angel of God being tormented also?), 'heaping coals of fire on ones head' (which in this context was the equivalent of feeding and giving drink to ones enemy), 'every man's works being revealed by fire, then suffering loss by fire, then finally saved by fire', 'the believer's works being tested by fire'. Matt 3:11 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire": KJV Matt 3:12 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire". KJV Luke 3:16-17 16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire": 17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable. KJV Acts 2:3 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them. KJV Acts 7:30 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush. KJV Rom 12:20 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head. KJV 1 Cor 3:13-15 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire". KJV Heb 1:7 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire". KJV 1 Peter 1:7 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by "fire", may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, NKJV Def, isn't it yet time to re-evaluate your religious beliefs?

Chuck let's leave this thread up for those that want knowledge and understanding on this subject. There is plenty here that is convincing for those that want new light. All can compare our posts with Def's. Thanks again for starting this thread Def, but honestly your posts here lack insight and scholarly workmanship. However, you will be in my prayers that God can open the eyes of your understanding.

Def, your study of "aion" is lacking. Try these usages and see if you can figure it out. Again the word translated "aion" is in quotation marks. What do all these uages directly below have in common you ask? They show that the word for "aion", which should be translated age, often is shown to have an ending. How can this be if the word for age is the same as eternal? Matt 12:32 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come. KJV Matt 13:39-40 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world". KJV Matt 13:49 49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, KJV Matt 24:3 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"? KJV Matt 28:20 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen. KJV 1 Cor 2:6 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought KJV 1 Cor 10:11 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come. KJV Gal 1:4-5 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen. KJV Eph 1:21 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come: KJV 2 Tim 4:10 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. KJV Heb 9:26 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. KJV And below we see "age" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "age" is not synonomous with eternal. Luke 1:70 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began: KJV John 9:32 32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. KJV Acts 3:21 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began". KJV Acts 15:18 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world". KJV 1 Cor 2:7 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory: KJV Eph 3:9 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: KJV Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonomous with eternal. Luke 18:30 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting. KJV Eph 2:7 7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. KJV Heb 6:5 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come, KJV

Def, thanks for starting this thread. You have been given plenty of excellent biblical information to at least consider the possibility. It was only a couple of years ago that I heard about this possibility. As I scripturally weigh the evidence I am more and more leaning towards the likelyhood that Jesus Christ came for the reconciliation of all men to God. As I said before the "Lake of Fire" in the book of Revelation is a fire of purification. From the Greek text the word fire is the Greek word 'pur'. Below is a partial definition from Thayer's unabridged. I did not include the entire definition because it is a long one. This definition points out that "pur" has a similar word "pu" from the Sanskrit which means "to purify". NT:4442 pur, genitive puros, to (probably from Sanskrit pu, "to purify" (compare the German: fever); Vanicek (1877 f), Griechisch-Lateinisches Etymologisches W?rbuch, p. 541; Curtius (50 A.D.) (1879), sec. 385), from Homer (900 B.C.?) down; Hebrew 'eesh; fire: Matt 3:10,12; 7:19; 17:15; Mark 9:22; Luke 3:9,17; 9:54; John 15:6; Acts 2:19; 28:5; 1 Cor 3:13; Heb 11:34; James 3:5; 5:3; Rev 8:5,7; 9:17,18; 11:5; 13:13; 14:18; 15:2; 16:8; 20:9; (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft) Besides what we read in chapters 19 & 20 of the book of Revelation. Here are some other usages of this Greek word for fire "pur" from the New Testament. Please note in all the verses below I am including the English word which is translated from the Greek word "pur" surrounded by quotation marks. From reading these verses it should be more than obvious that in many usages this word "pur" refers to a fire of purification. I am not saying that this purification written about in the book of Revelation is a pleasant experience or without pain. Just like chastisement when we are wrong is sometimes painful. However, it is a necessary one for the reconciliation of man. Matt 3:11 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire": KJV Matt 3:12 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire". KJV Luke 3:16-17 16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire": 17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable. KJV Acts 2:3 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them. KJV Acts 7:30 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush. KJV Rom 12:20 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head. KJV 1 Cor 3:13-15 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire". KJV Heb 1:7 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire". KJV 1 Peter 1:7 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by "fire", may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, NKJV

Hi Chuck: I have read a few of your posts here. I think you are doing an excellent job of explaining this subject which for some Christians is difficult to accept and understand. I applaud you.

Here is more to consider from the same web site as previously quoted from. The link again is at the bottom. Is There Really an Unpardonable Sin? So, how does this make a difference? Well, one very important result of properly translating the word "eon" pertains to the study of what is often referred to as "The Unpardonable Sin" where the King James Version states "And whoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall NOT be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." Matt 12:32. However, the word is NOT "world" but "eon." Thus, the text really reads, in the original Greek, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eon, nor in the eon to come." That means that "the sin against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven him" in the eon that these words were written in (the present eon we are living in), nor in the eon to come - which is the millennial eon. The Bible teaches that the wicked will be dead during the millennial eon, so naturally "his sin" will not be forgiven him while he is dead. But the Bible states that there is ANOTHER eon after that, the Fifth and Final Eon of time, when the wicked are resurrected and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place! The Bible does NOT say that "his sin" will not be forgiven him in that LAST eon! This is clearly a matter for much further study. Five Eons When we study the different specific eons, we find there are a total of FIVE eons, in the Total Eonion Times of this earth's history. We will not discuss the first eon at this time, as that is a total study in itself. It is mentioned in Heb 1:2 We can find from scripture that the second eon began at Creation as described in the first chapter of Genesis and extended until the flood, a period of at least 1600 years (Genesis 1-9). The third eon (Gal 1:4; 1 Thess 4:13, 5:11; Matt 24:29,30) began with the flood and will end at the Second Coming of Jesus, a period of around 4000 years. This is the eon that we are living in right now. This eon and the previous eon are termed the "evil" eons in the Bible. (For more information, see the reference at the end of this study.) When Jesus comes again, that will begin the fourth eon, the one thousand year millennial eon, the only eon for which the Bible gives us an exact time -- one thousand years (Rev 20:1-10; Luke 18:20). But the Bible tells that there will be ANOTHER eon, the fifth eon, AFTER the millennial eon (Rev 21-22; Eph 3:21; Rev 11,14,15; Rev 20:11-15). That's when the Second Resurrection (the Resurrection of the Wicked) and the Great White Throne Judgment will take place. But please note, that will take an ENTIRE eon! How Long is an Eon? The word "eon" just designates that it is a period of time, with a definite beginning and a definite end. It is NOT eternity, as eternity has NO end! Each eon appears to be a different length of time. But one thing is certain, every eon is a VERY LONG period of time. The shortest eon that the Bible speaks of is the millennium eon (the fourth eon) and that is 1000 years long. The second eon, from creation to the flood, was at least 1600 years long and the present eon, from the flood until the Second Coming of Christ, is at least 4000 years long. So, we have reason to believe that the last eon (the fifth and final eon) will be AT LEAST 1000 years long and possibly longer! Christians have the impression that the wicked will be resurrected, judged and "thrown in the lake of fire" in a very short period of time, --- maybe minutes, hours, days, weeks or months. Really, no one gives it much thought. Everyone is just under the impression that it will all happen quite rapidly. But if billions of people are going to be "eternally lost" as most Christians believe, and God's going to resurrect billions of wicked people just to "judge" them, then kill them again, supposedly to prove to them that He was right all along (Have you ever stopped to ponder what kind of a God would do that?), then wouldn't God allow each person to have at least a few minutes individually in front of the Great White Throne, before God "eternally" destroys them? Is that too much to ask? After all, we're told that each person is so precious to Jesus that He would have died on the cross for "just one person," and that we're much more important than the sparrows that He assures us He watches over. Or are billions of people going to be resurrected and judged as a gigantic, impersonal mass of humanity, then communally consigned to the fire to die all over again, but this time in an excruciatingly painful way? In addition, the wicked will HAVE to be resurrected in better bodies (but not "glorified" bodies as the righteous have) than they had when they went down into the grave, as some were brain-dead in a coma on life-support when they died, some died with Alzheimer's, and some were burned to death in accidental house fires. They're at least going to have to be restored to such a degree that they can understand what the "judging" is all about. What would it prove to have a comatose patient, or a person with Alzheimer's placed before God at the Great White Throne Judgment? That would be stupid. God wouldn't do that. The "judgment" would be nonsensical and meaningless if the person being "judged" couldn't understand what was going on. Reasonable Assumptions: 1. The last eon, the eon of the Great White Throne Judgment, will be at least as long as the shortest known eon, at least 1000 years, possibly longer. For a Christian that does not believe in "eternal" burning, what in the world is going to take place that would take such a long time? By the way, the concept of the wicked "burning forever and ever" has no Biblical basis when one reads the original Greek. The longest period of time the wicked could possibly "burn" would be for the "eon", a specific period of time with a definite ending. (The question of whether the wicked will literally burn, and for how long is the subject of yet another study. See the study on "When is Fire Not Fire?") 2. There must be some means of feeding, sheltering and governing these billions of people while the Judgment is taking place and while the wicked are preparing for battle against the Saints. Will there be a whole "civilization" set up? 3. The wicked will be resurrected in better bodies than the ones in which they went down to the grave (though not "glorified" bodies as the righteous will have). Clarification of the Scriptures by the proper translation of the word "eon." Here are some examples of the Biblical contradictions produced by the mistranslation of the word "eon." 1. The word "everlasting" is applied to things in some Bible passages that the Bible states, in other passages, is clearly NOT "everlasting". "the everlasting hills" Gen 49:26 and Deut 33:15 (R.V.) Yet the Bible states that the hills are NOT "everlasting." Isa 54:10 "For the mountains shall depart and the hills be removed" Amos 9:13 "and all the hills shall melt" 2 Peter 3:10 "and the earth shall be burned up" 2. Contradictory expressions as "the end of the world" and "world without end." Matt 24:3 "the end of the world" (KJV) The accurate translation is: "conclusion of the eon." Eph 3:21 "world without end" (KJV) The accurate translation is: "unto all the generations of the eon of the eons." The inaccuracy and inconsistency of the translation of the words "olam" in the Old Testament and of "aion" and "aionios" in the New Testament has led to a tragic perversion of what the Scriptures actually teach in regard to the destiny of God's creatures. Let's remember that we are told that God "is the Savior of ALL men" (1 Tim 4:10); that He will justify ALL (Rom 5:18); that He will reconcile ALL unto Himself (Col 1:20);that He will give life to ALL (1 Cor. 15:22); and that finally when all enemies have been subjected, and death is abolished, that God will be "ALL IN ALL" (1 Cor 15:28). If these statements are true, then it cannot be true that millions of His children are to be held in never-ending torment or that they will be permanently annihilated (by whatever method you may believe), nor that even one should receive such treatment. "Behold the Lamb of God, that TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD." He doesn't "offer" to take it away --- He TAKES it away. And the "sin" is not taken away from just "some people" in the world -- No, it is taken away from the WHOLE world! This does not deny that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" (Rom 1:18). There is no doubt whatever as to the fact that the Bible clearly teaches wrath -- not only in this age (eon) but in the age (eon) which is to come. "God will NOT be mocked." Whatever we sow, we will reap. But God's wrath is defined in Romans 1:18, 24, 26, 28. God's "wrath" is just giving us up to our own evil desires and allowing us to reap what we have sown. Let us ALL remember that God says, "I'm NOT like you." "My ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." The word "Judgment" means to "set right" or to "turn around" or "turn back." God chastens us to turn us around, so we'll head in the right direction. That's the way we discipline our own children. Psalm 94:15 says, "But judgment shall RETURN unto righteousness." Psalm 90:3, speaking of God, says, "Thou turnest man to destruction: and sayest, Return, ye children of men." If destruction means annihilation, then how could anyone return to God after they have been permanently annihilated? In 1 Cor 5:5, Paul tells us to "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Notice that "destruction" is NOT annihilation, but the prelude to SALVATION! (Please see the study on "The Destruction of the Wicked.") In Conclusion: 1) An Eon is a period of time, NOT eternity. 2) There will be a total of Five Eons in the history of this world. 3) We are living in the third eon of earth's history 4) The millennial eon (the fourth eon) will begin at the Second Coming of Jesus 5) After the millennial eon, there will be a fifth and final eon during which time the wicked will be resurrected, the Great White Throne Judgment will take place, and the wicked will reap what they have sown. But that will NOT include permanent annihilation. Their "Judgment" will have a PURPOSE -- to turn them back to righteousness! Psalm 94:15, "But Judgment shall RETURN unto righteousness!" 6) When death is abolished and God is "ALL in ALL" (1 Cor 15:28) --- THEN eternity will begin. http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/forever3.htm

Hi Socks: Your post above dated January 23, 2005 16:24 is a good one. Thanks for taking the time.

There are two words for study consideration on this subject. They are Strong's numbers 165 and 166. 165 is the number for the Greek word 'aion'. 166 is the number for the related Greek word 'aionios'. Aion is clearly refering to age and is a definite period of time. The related Greek word aionios is a little less clear, but is definitely related to the word found in the Greek bible for aion which should be translated 'age'. Below is a study for your consideration. This is not the entire study available, but I will provide the Internet link to this study at the bottom of this post which has more information. Does "FOREVER" Really Mean FOREVER? A Study of the Word "Eon" Most Christians would be astonished and perplexed to find out that the Bible NEVER ONCE talks about "eternal" life, or ANYTHING happening "forever" or "forever and ever." In fact, the words eternal, everlasting, and forever NEVER appear in the New Testament. They are mistranslations of the Greek word "eon." "Well, then the word "eon" must mean eternal, everlasting and forever," you say. No it doesn't. Because eternity does not have an end. An eon DOES have an end. The word "eon" pertains to a specific period of time, with both a beginning and an end. The Bible makes this very clear because it speaks of a "present" eon, a "coming" eon, and a "conclusion" of the eons. Obviously "eternity" as we understand it, has NO "conclusion." Now, before anyone gets too upset, there IS information in the Bible that speaks of what we understand as "eternal" life, but that word is not used. What the Bible says is that those living at the end of the eons will never die, because death will be abolished. ("The last enemy that will be abolished is -- death!" See 1 Cor 15:22-28.) But it's extremely important to know why the Bible DOESN'T use the word eternity and instead uses the word eon, meaning a specific period of time. The process of God revealing Himself (His character) to His creatures IS the PURPOSE of the eons (see Eph 1:11 in the original Greek). If infinity were needed for God to make Himself known, then we would never obtain such knowledge. God never speaks to us in terms of infinity, for we cannot understand it. He has provided a DEFINITE period of time for His self-revelation, called --- the eonian times. The mistranslation of the word "eon" as everlasting, eternal, forever, and even "world", in the King James Version and nearly ALL translations of the Bible, leads to confusion and even sometimes to false doctrine. Some of the Bible translations have corrected some of the confusion by correctly translating the word "eon" as "age" which is much more accurate. But they don't do it in every instance. The following information shows the many different ways the word "eon" is translated, as well as allowing the Bible to interpret its own words. The Bible reveals that the word "eon" clearly means a period of time, because the eons have a "conclusion!" Eternity has NO conclusion! So the word "Eon" CANNOT mean eternity! EONIAN, aionion Variously translated: Aeonian, age-abiding, long ages, of the ages, past ages, periods of past ages, remote-age times, commencement, eternal, eternally, eternity, everlasting, http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/forever2.htm

Chuck, I think it is most excellent that you are taking an interest in this biblical subject of God reconciling all men to himself. And actually, free will as a part of man believing unto salvation is most definitely over rated. Just look at the apostle Paul's conversion. He gets thrown off of a horse and then blinded by God until he comes to the realization that something is definitely not right in his life. Then he gets a personal visit from Jesus himself who shows him that he is the Lord and the way to salvation for all mankind. Paul is a living example of someone that had to be touched and enlightened by the Master's hand first before he had any chance to believe unto salvation. We are really just fortunate and called of God to have received this message at all. Many people in remote parts of the world may never hear this message or simply have not heard enough to believe unto salvation. Just look at the vast amounts of people living in cultures controlled by Islamic or Hindu beliefs. Does that mean that God raises them from the dead to be judged and then throws them on the scrap heap to be tortured for ever? While the few of us fortunate enough to have personally been touched by the Master in our earthly existence only receive eternal life? I don't think so. Jesus can show himself in his eternal resurrected state to whomever he wills. The bible says that every knee shall bow to the Lord Jesus. God through his Son has both the power and the will to reconcile all men to himself. If not in this lifetime then at the second general resurrection. People really misunderstand the fire of God spoken of in the final part of the book of Revelation. This is not a fire of eternal torment. This is a fire of judgement and purification for all mankind so that he can take part in the Lord's glorious new heaven and earth. Without this purification by the Lord Jesus none of us would receive eternal life.

Nice sarcasm Pirate. However, being a S.F. Bay Area native and actually having gone to a Stanford game I can tell you that the Stanford band is deliberately bad. With purpose they march out of formation and sometimes even with intent play off key. So much for the Stanford band. And being a California Golden Bears football fan I especially don't like the BcS. Cal only lost once to top ranked USC and was ranked 5th by the BcS and 4th by the Coaches and Writers polls. Yet they did not get to play in a top rated bowl game.

Yes, it is now official. The school with the best marching band in the nation is also America's #1 college football team. Was there ever any doubt? USC Rocks! Congratulations University of Southern California Trojans football team.

Phil 2:8-11 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. KJV If every knee should bow, then why would God disgard anyone? If Paul who was a sinner and murderer of Christians can believe then why can't others also? It took a personal visit from Jesus to get Paul to believe. Otherwise he likely would not have. In the judgement of God, after the second resurrection of the unjust, if God reveals himself to all then why would not they too bow their knees and acknowledge Him? The above verses and others seem to indicate that one way or another God can cause even the most unworthy to have faith. It might take eons, but God is all powerfull and sovereign. If he can command such faith from Paul through his Son, why not with all others at the second resurrection? Once all men show their faith by bowing their knees then why would God not save them also? "Every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth."

Sorry to hear the news Pawtucket. I just got back from a Carribbean cruise with my family, father, mother and sister. My heart goes out to you and your family this day and everyday. Thanks for all that you do.

Congratulations to the Red Sox and their fans, the most loyal that I have seen in professional sports. Without their support in game 4 I don't think the Red Sox would have pulled it out. I think they almost willed their team back on track and into the win column. Then after that the Red Sox got hot and the rest is baseball history. Congratulations again to the Red Sox and their fans. But alas I won't be able to invoke the curse of the Bambino any longer in fending myself from you all at the ball games against my beloved Oakland Athletics. Oh well, the Athletics have still won more championships. No reason for me to get gready about this.

I saw Boston play in Oakland this year and thought they were a very good team. I thought they could beat the Yankees. However, when they were down 3 games to 0, I wrote them off like everybody else. What a great comeback I can only say. This has never been done before being that far behind in a major league play-off series and coming back to win it. Congratulations Red Sox. With such a great come back you might even win the World Series this year and even if you have to play St. Louis.