Mark Sanguinetti

Here is some historical information on burning at the stake which people have been condemned to. http://home.comcast.net/~burokerl/burning_at_the_stake.htm http://www.born-again-christian.info/foxes...tyrs.burned.htm http://www.answers.com/topic/execution-by-burning

Galileo was condemned of heresy by the Roman Catholic church. For this the Roman church often burned people at the stake. Maybe Galileo, as Cynic says, escaped this threat. However, other believers in Christ were murdered for their faith in Christ in the name of so called Christianity. Some of these I understand were burned at the stake. This was done during the middle ages by religious rulers in the name of Christianity. Here are two biographical links for Galileo: http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~histor...ns/Galileo.html http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96feb/galileo.html Thanks for posting Cynic.

The Kingdom of God has been prophecied as the 1000 year millenial kingdom. Plenty of people will disqualify themselves from this including many religious leaders who have bullied God's people over the years. Only the servants of Christ from the heart who have exhibited the fruit of the spirit of God will be part of this. There has already been many murders committed in the name of Christianity by false rulers. The famous and intellectually brilliant Galileo was even burned at the stake in the name of Christianity and he was a believer in Christ. Many other believers in Christ have also been murdered in the name of Christianity often by burning them at the stake. As we can read in the scriptures this is something that has never entered into the heart of God. Jer 32:35 35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.' NKJV Yet it is the false Christian rulers that have committed this act over the centuries and that are the source of the preaching of this in its spiritual judgement equivalent even today. However, in the final new heaven and earth all of mankind will be judged or will have been previously judged by the blood of Christ. Ultimately, the Kingdom of God will rule the earth with no opposition whatsoever as even death will be destroyed. Then God will truly be all in all. This is the kingdom that I see as including all of mankind.

My porn name would be Donlet Y. Mealow. But don't ask me to audition.

Hi Ex: Why are you assuming that God makes some people homosexual? And why are you assuming that a homosexual is locked out of all that is godly and spiritual? People make choices according to the dictates of their minds and hearts, but God still loves all and sent his Son as the saviour of all mankind. Why don't you just tell her the truth that some Christians are just plain hard hearted to the feelings of others? There are plently of pharisees wearing the cloak of Christianity today and they often don't evidence the love of God or genuine spiritual fruit. Otherwise they would have some compassion and would not be as judgemental. They also sadly enough influence others including young people.

Pirate, if Wierwille's name is not listed then my choice for the above is #2.

You may also be able to delete the virus through your anti-virus software program. Experiment a little with your anti-virus software and determine what is best and as Garth suggested do a full system scan. You can also check with the manuel that came with your software (if you have one) to make sure that you are on target.

Happy belated birthday from me too Hope. And I agree with Hap on your real age.

Def says, Speaking of what is fair and what is not fair, how does this parable of Jesus line up with your present theology of a few receiving eternal bliss and the majority receiving eternal torment? Matthew 20:1-16 20:1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. 3 "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5 So they went. "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6 About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?' 7 "'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.' 8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.' 9 "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' 13 "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?' 16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last." NIV

I don't have time today to offer my own commentary on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. However, for your edification and reading enjoyment I offer the brief commentary below. From Stephen Jones' book "Creation's Jubilee". Appendix 5 The Rich Man and Lazarus The Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is one of the prime texts used to teach the doctrine of eternal torment. We have, in effect answered this assertion quite thoroughly in the general course of our study, but we offer this brief look at this parable as a supplement. We must first recognize this to be a parable, rather than a literal story. It follows the same general pattern of Jesus’ other parables of the Kingdom. The rich man is the villain, representing (as usual) the Scribes and Pharisees. In verse 19 they are said to dress in purple (civil authority) and fine linen (religious authority). Dressed as they were, how conspicuous they must have looked as Jesus told the story! They also “fared sumptuously every day” (vs. 19), having access to the Scriptures daily. Yet in the hardness of their hearts, they would not believe in Jesus, though he rose from the dead (vs. 31). In contrast, there was Lazarus, the outcast, the “gentile,” who had no spiritual advantage whatsoever. To receive any spiritual food (God’s Word) he had to beg, hoping for a few crumbs from the table. His only comfort was from the “dogs,” a euphemism for the “gentiles.” This is confirmed by Jesus’ words in Matthew 15:21-28. 21 And Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman came out from that region, and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came to Him and kept asking Him, saying, "Send her away, for she is shouting out after us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once. One of the main purposes of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was to show that a profound change was about to take place. The “rich man” was about to be judged, while “Lazarus” was about to be blessed by the Word. And so, the “rich man,” the nation of Judah, “died” in 70 A.D. and was cast out. The “gentiles” then received the Gospel, and in accepting Christ, identified in His death (Rom. 6:7). And so they were blessed in “death,” while the Pharisees and their “five brethren” (vs. 28) remaining in Judaism were “tormented” thereafter. For the past 2,000 years, the Jews have been saying, “We are tormented in this flame.” But Jesus had told them by another parable in Matthew 21:43, 43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. If we take this parable as teaching about a future punishment, there is still no reason to conclude either that the “flame” is literal, or that it is unending. Neither issue is addressed in the story, and so we would have to fill in those details by other Bible passages. This we have already done, particularly in chapters 2, 3, and 4. As Christians, we know that Jesus paid the full penalty for our sin. If the law demanded that the penalty be eternal torment in hellfire, then Jesus would have had to burn in hell forever. He did not do this. The question is: are we yet in our sins? Or did Jesus’ DEATH or a mere 3 days pay the penalty in full? The answer is simple. Jesus was not tormented for eternity, and He did indeed pay the full penalty for sin. Therefore, as Paul said, “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), NOT eternal death, NOT hellfire, NOT some other death dreamed up in the imagination of men with which to threaten their enemies. All we need to do is see the example of Jesus to know the full penalty of sin. In the pain He felt from Gethsemane to His death on the Cross, he paid for our personal sins, going through the “lake of fire” on this earth, even as we do on a smaller scale in the process of purification. In Jesus’ actual death for 3 days, He paid for the original sin of Adam, whose penalty was death (Gen. 2:17). It is not our intention to minimize the awful price He paid for sin. It was indeed a terrible price to pay. Yet an ETERNAL penalty is one in which there is NO HOPE of ever paying it in full. But we know that Jesus did pay it in full.

Hi Def: Nice to see you check in at this thread. There seems to now be interest in Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Here it is below. One should understand that this parable was addressed to the pharisees who likely already believed in punishment and torment for the law breakers and wicked. Of course, they would never consider themselves to be evil even though Jesus said they were on more than a few occasions. If you follow the parable you might find that Jesus was simply convicting the pharisees by their own religious standards. I will have more to say on this parable later, but for now please read it. Luke 16:14-31 14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He (Jesus) said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. 16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. 18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" NIV

Hello again Def. Def, I don't mean to rub this in, but your bible scholar did exactly what I said he was going to do. He broke his own rule of interpretation and this forum plainly shows this. His rule was that, I never argued with him on this point. In fact, I have noticed this myself at times as I did recently with the Greek word "genea", Strong's number 1074. When I did this Mr. Fairchild, who you apparently esteem because of his theology background, criticized me in error. I had in fact followed the above stated rule of word interpretation. Hopefully, Mr. Fairchild was unaware of this because of an oversight on his part or because he was distracted from taking the time to look up this word in a lexicon before his criticism. However, Mr. Fairchild may have a more serious problem. That of being a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). He should have welcomed my application of his above stated rule and embraced it, but unfortunately for him he did not. I sure hope that he does not think that only he can follow the principles of studious biblicial interpretation and that others with a different doctrinal view point from his own can not. This reminds me. When one says that Greek words can have different meanings depending on the context one should not do this for the purpose of adding bias or traditions of men to biblical interpretation. This is not honest and is handling the word of God deceitfully whether one realizes this or not. I welcome all posters to this subject forum. However, if I would have made the above explained mistake that Professor Fairchild made recently, I would have come clean by now and admitted my mistake on this forum. I want to give professor Fairchild the opportunity to do this so Def will you please copy and paste this post to an e-mail and send it to him. I would hate to think that ones religious standing would stand in the way of genuine spiritual fruit in ones lifestyle. And I want to remind us of Galations 6:1. 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. NIV I also would like to extend an invitation to Mark Fairchild to post directly on this web site forum. And Def I want to thank you again for starting this thread. We may disagree on this subject, but I recognize that without your input here I would not have posted as much material on this subject as I have. Again thank you for posting what you have. It has motivated me to post a great deal on this subject that I otherwise would not have. And with that in mind as previously promised below is an article on the subject of the Jubilee. The Law of Jubilee By Dr. Stephen E. Jones Even as Jesus Christ is the central Person of all history, the law of Jubilee is the most fundamental law of all creation. The law of Jubilee is the basis of forgiveness and grace. It is the purpose and goal of the law itself. It compels a climax of earth history and a full end of the dominion of darkness and sin. The basic law of Jubilee is recorded in Leviticus 25:8-13. 8 You are also to count off seven Sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven Sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years. 9 You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land. 10 You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family. When Israel conquered the land of Canaan under the leadership of Joshua, he divided the land among all the families in Israel. This was their inheritance in the land, and no one (other than God Himself) could lawfully deprive them of their inheritance. However, if drought struck the land, or some other type of disaster, the families might lose their land. They would sell the land to someone else until the year of Jubilee. The value of the land was measured in terms of its ability to produce barley, and an “omer” of barley (about eight bushels) had a fixed value of fifty shekels (about thirteen ounces) of silver (Leviticus 27:16). In selling land the buyer was to pay a fair price according to the amount of barley the land could normally produce from the present time to the year of Jubilee. Of course, they could not count the Sabbath years, when the land was to rest and could not produce a crop. When the fair price had been calculated, the sale was made, and the new owners began to farm the property. The previous owners generally found employment on another estate, unless they were hired to work their own land as laborers for the new owner. It was the right of the original land inheritor to redeem his land at any time if he was able to do so. With each passing year the redemption price of the land was decreased proportionately, because, as we said, the land was not valued as land per se but in terms of its harvests. This eliminated any land speculation. The law of God forbade the outright sale of one’s land inheritance, because the land belongs to God. All land sales were temporary. Today we would call them leases. Leviticus 25:23-28 says, 23 The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me. 24 Thus for every piece of your property, you are to provide for the redemption of the land. 25 If a fellow countryman of yours becomes so poor he has to sell part of his property, then his nearest kinsman is to come and buy back what his relative has sold. 26 Or in case a man has no kinsman, but so recovers his means as to find sufficient for its redemption, 27 then he shall calculate the years since its sale and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it, and so return to his property. 28 But if he has not found sufficient means to get it back for himself, then what he has sold shall remain in the hands of its purchaser until the year of Jubilee; but at the Jubilee it shall revert, that he may return to his property. No man could permanently lose his land inheritance through debt. At the Jubilee, the land would revert back to him, and any remaining debts were to be cancelled. The Lawful Right of Redemption Verse 25 above says also that it was the will of God that the debtor’s nearest kinsman should redeem his brother when possible. In fact, the law specifically states in the NASV that “his nearest kinsman IS TO COME AND BUY BACK what his relative has sold.” We know that the law is not only a moral document, but is also prophetic, because this is the law that Jesus performed perfectly. It was therefore prophesying that Jesus Christ, our Kinsman-Redeemer, would come to buy back everything that was sold when Adam sinned. The Scriptures cannot be broken. If the redeemer has the power to redeem, the law says he is commanded by the will of the Father in heaven to redeem what his brother has lost. We are His brethren. Therefore, the law demands that Jesus Christ redeem all that was lost in Adam. The only relevant question is whether or not Jesus Christ really did this or not. I believe He did, for the blood has never lost its power, nor did Jesus fail in any point of law to do all that the Father asked of Him. The law was fully satisfied. The law of redemption was closely tied to the law of Jubilee. Essentially, redemption of the inheritance was always possible prior to the year of Jubilee. If the debtor somehow could scrape together enough money to redeem himself, he always had the lawful right to do so. A near kinsman also had the lawful right to redeem the debtor at any time. We read in Leviticus 25:47-55. 47 Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him, 49 or his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he sold himself to him up to the year of Jubilee; and the price of his sale shall correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man that he shall be with him. 51 If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption; 52 and if few years remain until the year of Jubilee, he shall so calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the amount for his redemption. 53 Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight. 54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him. 55 For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God. It is important to understand the law of redemption, because it has everything to do with God’s plan for the redemption of both Israel and the world. A friend does not have the right of redemption; only a near kinsman does. This means that if a man sells himself and his family to work for another man, his friend may redeem him—but only if the master allows it. The friend does not have the RIGHT of redemption. Instead, the master has the right to keep the new bondservant in his employ. But if a near kinsman decides to redeem the debtor, the master has no choice in the matter, for the kinsman has the right of redemption. Jesus came to earth to redeem His people (Luke 1:68). He did not come in the form of an angel, but was born a man, specifically of the seed of Abraham. He did this in order to have the lawful right of redemption. If He had come as an angel, the divine law would have ruled that He was only a FRIEND of sinners, whose sin had given them a debt they could not pay, men who had lost their inheritance through Adam’s sin. Jesus was indeed a friend of sinners, but He chose to be more than that. In order to have the RIGHT of redemption for Israel, He had to be more than a mere friend. He had to be born of the seed of Abraham. In order to have the RIGHT of redemption for all mankind, He had to be more than an angelic friend. He had to be born of flesh and blood. He qualified on both counts, as we read in Hebrews 2:11-17. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying [in Psalm 22:22], "I will proclaim Thy name to My brethren, In the midst of the congregation I will sing Thy praise." 13 And again [in 2 Samuel 22:3], "I will put My trust in Him." And again [in Isaiah 8:18], "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me." 14 Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. We conclude, then, that Jesus Christ was born of flesh and blood in order to have the lawful right of redemption of the whole world. He was likewise born specifically of the seed of Abraham in order to have the lawful right of redemption for the House of Israel. These are separate promises, but they are based upon the same law of redemption. Israel was to be redeemed from the hand of her enemies (Assyria) and would ultimately return to God. The world of flesh and blood, by the same law, will also be redeemed from the final and ultimate enemy—death—for death does not hold the right of redemption and has no choice but to turn every captive loose at Jesus Christ’s demand. The Redeemed Serve a New Master In the law of redemption, the redeemed bondservant does not have the lawful right to be his own boss or the master of his own destiny. As we quoted earlier in Leviticus 25:53, 53 Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight. A redeemer is one who pays the price of redemption for the bondservant. In essence, he buys the bondservant from the master, who is a “stranger,” or foreigner, and who is likely to abuse the man and oppress him. The near kinsman is commanded to redeem his brother on the grounds that he will treat the bondservant in a lawful manner with kindness and consideration. This means that the bondservant merely changes masters. Redemption does NOT mean the bondservant is now free to do his own will. The Apostle Paul discusses this point of law in Romans 6, the chapter where he discusses the supposed right of the redeemed Christian to continue in sin that grace may increase. 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? . . . . 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. Paul’s discussion here is based upon the law of redemption. The redeemed bondservant is bound by the divine law to serve the redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer, who bought us with His blood, and for this reason, as Paul says, we have been “freed from sin and enslaved to God” (vs. 22). That is, sin is no longer our master, but we now have God as our Master. That means we are now accountable to His law and are expected to be obedient to Him. John says that “sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). John also says in 1 John 2:3 and 4, 3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. John is not saying that the law is the basis of our salvation. He is saying that our obedience is the outward EVIDENCE that we are saved, for if we claim to be redeemed, but refuse to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, we do not really know Him. “By this we know.” The lawless Christian is violating the law of redemption. For this reason, Jesus says of such people in Matthew 7:23, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Lawless Christians will not lose their salvation ultimately. They will be “saved, yet so as through fire,” as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:15. And, of course, if a man merely professes to be a believer but is not really a Christian at all—God judges the heart—then such a man will be thrown into the lake of fire for a longer and more extensive kind of purification. Those unbelievers, however, will finally be set free at the great Jubilee at the end of time, for we read in Leviticus 25:54, 54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him. What a glorious promise! The Jubilee is the law of grace. No matter how far a man goes into debt, the Jubilee will set him free. Even if no kinsman redeems him, there is a day coming when he will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. This is why all of creation is awaiting this day. Romans 8:19-25 says, 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. The law of Jubilee mandates the setting free of all creation at some point in history. Personally, I believe this will come after 49,000 years of history. The lowest level of Jubilee came after 49 years (Lev. 25:8). The trumpet for the Jubilee was blown on the Day of Atonement, which was ten days into the fiftieth year (Leviticus 25:9). In prophetic history we see higher-level Jubilees, such as Daniel’s seventy weeks (of years), which is actually ten Jubilee cycles, or 490 years. Jesus set us free on the Cross at the end of Daniel’s seventy weeks in 33 AD. (See our book, Secrets of Time, chapter 9.) The forty-Jubilee cycle of 1,960 years is also important, as is the fifty-Jubilee cycle of 2,450 years. These subjects are covered extensively in Secrets of Time, but are beyond the scope of this book. Yet the final Creation’s Jubilee, I believe, is 49,000 years. I cannot prove this, of course, nor is it critical to do so. It is sufficient to know that the law of God demands limits on how long a debtor can be enslaved, or how long a sinner can be in bondage to his sin. All creation waits in anticipation of this Jubilee. It is the goal of history and the ultimate purpose of God. The law of Jubilee on every level obtains its power by the blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, as we read in 1 John 2:1 and 2, 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. All Land Belongs to God The law of Jubilee depends upon a deeper law, which we quoted earlier. It is found in Leviticus 25:23, where God says, "the land is mine." For this reason, it could not be sold permanently, but always had to revert back to the original owners at the year of Jubilee. Adam was made of the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7). Man was a part of God's creation and land inheritance. God's intent was to build a house for Himself in earth, and that house is man himself. Because man is a created being, he does not own himself. God owns all that He has created. All the land belongs to God. It is true that man has been given a level of authority, but man does not have ultimate sovereignty over his "land," that is, himself. For this reason, man has been given the right to sell his land temporarily. He may sell himself into sin for a while, even for a lifetime. But he has never been given the right to sell his land for all time. His land will always have to revert back to God at the Jubilee. In other words, no man can be so great a sinner that he cannot be set free at the year of Jubilee. No man can go so far into debt that he cannot be set free in the year of Jubilee. No man has either the authority or the ability to incur a debt that is greater than the year of Jubilee can remedy. This is the law of God, not man's law. When man sinned, the "land" was sold. That is, Adam and his children and his entire estate were sold into sin. In essence, God lost His inheritance in the earth. It is for this reason that Jesus Christ came into the world to redeem His lost inheritance. He came as a near Kinsman in order to secure the RIGHT of redemption. By His own blood, He paid the full price of the sin of the entire world from Adam to the end of time. The only question remaining is whether Jesus Christ loves the world enough to actually take advantage of His legal rights. The answer is found in John 3:16, "God so loved the world. . ." The real question is this: If Jesus Christ had the power to save all men, would He do so? Of course He would, because He loves all that He created. Well, Jesus does have the power and the wisdom to save all men. His blood--the payment for the sin of the world--is worth far more than the sin-debt of all mankind put together. More than that, the law is on His side, because He has the right of redemption. That means He can redeem all if He wants to do so. Suppose you, dear reader, had a family of loved ones who had been sold into slavery. If you came, having the legal right of redemption and paid the full price of their redemption, would you be satisfied if the slave master accepted your money, but then gave you only one or two of them? Of course not. If you truly loved them, you would demand all that you paid for. But even if your loved ones refused to be redeemed, this could only delay the process until the year of Jubilee. Remember Leviticus 25:54, 54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him. Though the rulers of men and nations have consistently refused to declare a Jubilee over its people, God is not a man that He should lie. He will always follow His own law, regardless of the refusal of men to be obedient. The Judgment of God in the Final Age The law of God demands the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). The divine judgments of God are not eternal, as men define eternal. They are aionian, as the Greek text says. They pertain only to an eon (aion), or an age. The "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15 is the same as the "fiery stream" mentioned in Daniel 7:9-11. Daniel tells us that the fire comes from God's throne. A throne is an ancient symbol of law. When a king sits upon a throne, he is officially administering the law or its judgments. God is the King of Creation, and He judges all according to His law. Therefore, the fire is the divine law, as Moses tells us in Deuteronomy 33:2, 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. The "fire" of the divine law judges no man for any crime by sentencing them to burn in a literal fire. All sin is reckoned as a debt that is owed to the victims of injustice. If the sinner cannot pay the restitution, he is to be a bondservant until the debt is paid. The believers will rule over them. That is, the believers will be given authority over the sinners (debtors), and be responsible to teach them the righteousness and character of God. For this reason, the prophet tells us in Isaiah 26:9, 9 . . . For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. This is the "fire" of the divine law. It is not torture or punishment; it is justice. God's judgments are corrective in nature. With God, there is no endless punishment without mercy. Judgment always ends in grace, for that is the law of Jubilee. Regardless of the precise nature of God's judgment upon sinners in that age, we know from the law of Jubilee that God's judgments are age-abiding, not everlasting, as some have translated the Greek word, aionian. Proper translations of this term are found in Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's The Emphasized Bible. They understand aionian in the same way that the early Church fathers did, for their writings often spoke of the judgments to come as being temporary and limited to an age. The law of Jubilee demands an end to all liability for sin (debt) at some point in the future. The law of Jubilee demands that all debts be cancelled at the end of that final age. Then all creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. The Restoration of All Things When God restores all things, then will Jesus' words be fulfilled in John 12:32, 33, 32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. Likewise, the words of the Apostle Paul will be fulfilled in 1Corinthians 15:22-28, 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order . . . . 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all. Even as in Adam all mankind died, so also in Christ, the Second Adam, all mankind will be made alive--but not all at once. Some will come into life in the first resurrection, others at the general resurrection, but all others at the great Jubilee of creation. Paul speaks of this day also in Colossians 1:16-20, 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. . . 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Through the Logos, the Word, Jesus Christ, all things were created (John 1:3), and through Him, all things will be reconciled to Himself. There will be nothing left outside of His dominion in the end, as we read in Hebrews 2:8 and 9, 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. "For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. 9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. In this manner He "is the Savior of all men, especially of believers," as the Apostle Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:10. Those who are saved before the creation Jubilee are indeed greatly blessed and will rule in His Kingdom. Yet in the end He is also the Savior of ALL men, not just of the believers. For this reason, all creation awaits the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19-21), knowing that these sons are but the firstfruits of creation (James 1:18). Paul says that the firstfruits sanctify the whole harvest. After the firstfruits were given to God, this signaled the beginning of the general harvest of the whole field. The field is the world (Matthew 13:39). So also John sees all of creation rejoicing in the end. Revelation 5 says, 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." This will never happen apart from the law of Jubilee, for most of creation yet remains in enmity against God. They are the ones in need of the Jubilee, for, unlike true believers, they do not take advantage of the law of redemption. The time of redemption ends with the Jubilee. And so we urge all those who hear the Word of God to believe in Jesus Christ and learn what great salvation He has given to men. Our message is that of the Apostle Paul, which he wrote in 2 Corinthians 5, 17 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them [the world], and He has committed to us [Christians] the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. We have been given the ministry of reconciliation with a message of good news to give the world. It is NOT the bad news of eternal torment or damnation, but the good news that God has reconciled the world through Christ, who has paid the price for their deliverance and salvation. This is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, who was lifted up on the cross, and therefore will draw ALL MEN unto Himself. This is not wishful thinking. It is prophecy. It is a statement of intent. It is His promise to us and to the world. Let us all rejoice in this good news of God's grace. God's Kingdom Ministries 6201 University Ave. N.E. Fridley, Minnesota 55432 (USA) For further study on the Biblical concept of the restoration of all things, write to us at the above address for the 154-page book by Dr. Stephen E. Jones, Creation's Jubilee.

Def, in looking over your post relayed from Fairchild. Are you quoting me correctly? With regard to genea I said as follows: My understanding above was based on the Thayer's definition below. Please note definition 4 below - an age...the space of from 30-33 years. This man makes a big deal and says that there are a number of different contextual definitions for various Greek words. Then he completely contradicts himself by limiting the definition of genea and complains that my definition was wrong even though it is plainly based on the Thayer's definition below. This is nothing more than tit for tat on Fairchild's part. Then he proceeds to ignore the main point of my post that his definition of aion as forever is contradicted by, not just by a few, but a number of New Testament usages. Def, are you sure you are quoting me correctly to Mr. Fairchild? For now I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that some where the message has been distorted. But let me tell you this. I have followed this thread from its outset and am very familiar with the content of this debate. If Mr. Fairchild is not familiar with this thread and what has been actually written he is not going to fair well in a debate such as this. But by all means, as with others, I welcome his input. NT:1074 genea, geneas, hee 1. a begetting, birth, nativity 2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family a. properly, the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matt 1:17 b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character Matt 17:17 3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matt 24:34 4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years Acts 14:16 (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft) The scriptural reference for the above usage is as follows: Acts 14:16 16 Who in times (genea, Strong's # 1074) past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. KJV In adding this reference and showing the specific usage from the scriptures that shows Thayer's contextual definition 4 above I hope to set a good example for others to also follow.

O.K. Def, I am back from my business trip and short vacation. I went to Portland, Oregon to do a trade show to promote my company. On my journey home I saw both the Oregon and California coast. It was beautiful. Getting back to this subject, Def, if you are going to quote me please do so correctly. This was my quote which one can plainly see from my previous post on this page. I clearly said the origins of eternal torment and I was describing the mythology of Tartarus and Hades which I am sure predates the writings of the New Testament. If one wants to base their religious beliefs on Greek mythology they can be my guest. And that includes those of us who have a theology degree or even teach theology. Who am I to stand in their way? If they prefer to teach Greek mythology and pass this off as scripture they can help themselves and then answer to God in their day of judgement. Fortunately, I am just a simpleton and as uneducated as I am all I had to do to see the similarity between Greek mythology and what is taught today in Christian circles as judgement for sinners was to type in my browser www.google.com . Then all that was necessary was to type in Greek mythology Tartarus and then like magic appeared a number of articles on this ancient and mystical subject. Below are two of the top five on a list of 13,200 articles. Tartarus by Martha Thompson Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven. According to the Greek poet Hesiod, a bronze anvil falling from heaven would take nine days and nights to reach earth, and an object would take the same amount of time to fall from earth into Tartarus. Tartarus is described as a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night. Along with Chaos, Earth, and Eros, it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe. While Hades is the main realm of the dead in Greek mythology, Tartarus also contains a number of characters. In early stories, it is primarily the prison for defeated gods; the Titans were condemned to Tartarus after losing their battle against the Olympian gods, and the hecatoncheires stood over them as guards at the bronze gates. When Zeus overcomes the monster Typhus, born from Tartarus and Gaia, he hurls it too into the same abyss. However, in later myths Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell and is the opposite of Elysium, the afterlife for the blessed. When the hero Aeneas visits the underworld, he looks into Tartarus and sees the torments inflicted on characters such as the Titans, Tityos, Otus and Ephialtes, and the Lapiths. Rhadymanthus (and, in some versions, his brother Minos) judges the dead and assigns punishment. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tartarus.html Article created on 06 June 1997; last modified on 12 May 1999. © MCMXCV - MMV Encyclopedia Mythica. All rights reserved. Tartarus (TAR-tuh-rus) The Underworld zone of eternal torment, where the greatest sinners were punished for their transgressions. The worst of these offenders were deemed to be those who had sinned against the gods themselves.The greatest crime of all was to abuse the gods' hospitality. All the more so since to be on familiar terms with the great deities was a particular favor, reserved for the elect. Thus the hero Bellerophon was guilty of the greatest presumption when, in his later years, he dared to ride the winged horse Pegasus to the very gates of Olympus. Apparently he imagined that his heroic conquest of the Chimaera qualified him automatically for admission to the company of the gods. Zeus repaid this arrogance by sending a horsefly to sting Pegasus. The flying horse reared and Bellerophon was flung from its back, falling so far and landing so hard that he was crippled for life. He spent the remainder of his days a miserable, wandering outcast. Tantalus, on the other hand, was invited to share not just Zeus's table but the great god's secrets. But Tantalus dared to tell these secrets to his fellow mortals. Or, some say, he stole Zeus's ambrosia. (Nectar and ambrosia were the special treats of the gods. Nectar was fermented honey, or mead. Ambrosia may have been a concoction of honey, water, fruit, cheese, olive oil and barley.) For either or both of his transgressions, Tantalus was consigned to Tartarus - as far beneath Hades as Hades is beneath the sky. The fifty daughters of Danaus murdered their husbands on their wedding night, driving daggers into their hearts and chopping off their heads. In fairness, they had not sought the marriages and were acting on their father's homicidal instructions. All the same, they were condemned in the afterlife to a perpetual labor of carrying water from the river Styx in jars - jars that leaked like sieves. For throwing his father-in-law into a fiery pit, Ixion had to be purified by Zeus. Then he ungratefully tried to seduce the great god's wife. Hera warned her husband what was afoot, and Zeus fashioned a cloud into Hera's likeness. Ixion made a pass at the cloud and was caught in the act. In punishment, he spends eternity in the lowest level of the Underworld, chained to a fiery wheel. http://www.mythweb.com/encyc/entries/tartarus.html

Yes Def, for the next few days you have this thread all to yourself. Except of course if another poster surprises us. However, when I get back I will be posting a whole chapter on the biblical year of Jubilee. This is an interesting topic and one that is not well known, yet it was part of the Old Testament law. I am not sure the children of Israel ever completely applied this. However, since Jesus always fullfilled the law of God he will for all of mankind. It might take a while, but the will of the Father will ultimately be done. Here is a taste from the Nelson Bible Dictionary. Enjoy! JUBILEE [JOO bah lee] (blowing the trumpet)-the 50 th year after seven cycles of seven years, when specific instructions about property and slavery took effect (Lev 25:8-55). The word jubilee comes from the Hebrew yobel, which means to be "jubilant" and to "exult." The word is related to the Hebrew word for ram's horn or trumpet. The Jubilee year was launched with a blast from a ram's horn on the Day of Atonement, signifying a call to joy, liberation, and the beginning of a year for "doing justice" and "loving mercy." The 50th year was a special year in which to "proclaim liberty throughout all the land" (Lev 25:10). Specifically, individuals who had incurred debts and had sold themselves as slaves or servants to others were released from their debts and were set at liberty. Since all land belonged to God (Lev 25:23), land could not be sold; but land could be lost to another for reasons of debt. In the Year of Jubilee such land was returned to the families to whom it was originally given. Like the SABBATICAL YEARS, the Year of Jubilee was a year for neither sowing nor reaping (Lev 25:11). The 50 th year became important in Israel's economic life. If anyone wished to redeem a person in debt, the price for doing so was calculated on the basis of the number of years remaining until the Jubilee. Part of the reason why God established the Jubilee Year was to prevent the Israelites from oppressing one another (Lev 25:17). One effect of the Jubilee Year was to prevent a permanent system of classes. The Jubilee Year had a leveling effect on Israel's culture; it gave everyone a chance to start over, economically and socially. The Jubilee Year reminds one of God's interest in liberty; God wants people to be free (Luke 4:18-19). It also stands as a witness to God's desire for justice on earth and calls into question any social practices that lead to permanent bondag and loss of economic opportunity. One may also see God's provision for the land's conservation in the call for the land to rest (Lev 25:11,18-22). The people were not to extract the earth's resources in a greedy manner. The sabbatical year and presumably the Year of Jubilee were also characterized by instruction in the Law (Deut 31:9-13). In this way the people learned that God's demand to love and obey Him was directly related to his concern for the welfare of all the people of Israel. (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

I guess LCM would respect the clout that the position of pope entails. The reason being is that the Way denomination and the Roman Catholic church use the same basic hierarchical religious power structure.

Actually, if one does a simple Internet search for Greek Mythology Tartarus or Greek Mythology Hades one will discover the origin of the doctrine of eternal torment. These are the same words used in the New Testament. However, one should not base their religious views on Greek mythology. One should base it on the scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments. I am getting ready for a planned business trip to Portland, Oregon and am leaving early tomorrow. I will not have access to a computer for a few days.

Happy Birthday Reikilady

Wacky, I see your point. No one should have that kind of religious power. It is unscriptural and in fact idolatrous. The pope could have just as easily used this power for evil as good. Many popes throughout history have in fact used their authority for evil and have used it to persecute God's people often unto death. However, I think what some of the other posters are saying is that for a pope he was actually a good one and did some good things. So with that said let's give him his day or week of recognition just as we would any political leader that has made a contribution to society.

Ttessa: That was a great post and I am glad that I read every word. It was well thought out and worded while showing a lot of heart. In spite of your perceived lack of brain function you do communicate well by the written word, better than most people here I might add, and this is something to be thankful for. I wish you well in all your endeavors and thank you for being so courageous in your hardships. You are an inspiration to us all. Regards, Mark

Just what I need. Another class to take.

I watched the entire second half of the game and it was a good one. It was a well played one by both teams. Only one turn over each for both teams in the second half was especially impressive. As another poster already mentioned, the deciding factor was the outstanding and rugged play of Sean May inside. Overall, North Carolina was not necessarily the better team, but they clearly had the best player on the court. Congrats to the victors.

Should be a very good game. Both teams have been consistently good throughout the season with the exception of North Carolina losing their opener to unranked Santa Clara (Santa Clara University is my Dad's college. It is in California just north of San Jose.)

From Stephen Jones' book "Judgements of the Divine Law" Chapter 2. Gehenna Gehenna is the only biblical “hell” that has a Hebrew origin in the Old Testament. It is simply the Greek spelling of the Hebrew phrase, Ge-Hinnom, “valley of Hinnom.” This, too, was a shortened form of the Old Testament place called “the valley of Ben-Hinnom” (son of Hinnom). This valley was at the base of the hill on which Jerusalem was built. Gehenna is thus the only term of the three where we can use its biblical meaning. The valley of the son of Hinnom was the place where Baal-worshipping Israelites had sacrificed their children to Molech (Jer. 32:35). 35 And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. For this reason the prophet said that it would become a “valley of slaughter” when God brought judgment upon Jerusalem (Jer. 19:6). This is also the passage where God directed the prophet to break the jar in that valley in the sight of the elders of Judah. Verses 10 and 11 read, 10 Then you are to break the jar in the sight of the men who accompany you 11 and say to them, Thus says the Lord of hosts, Just so shall I break this people and this city, even as one breaks a potter’s vessel, which cannot again be repaired. . . . Jerusalem was destroyed shortly afterward by the armies of Babylon. But it was rebuilt a century later in the days of Nehemiah. The city was destroyed again in 70 A.D., this time by the Roman armies. But it was later rebuilt. It was destroyed a number of times during the past 2000 years, but each time it has been rebuilt. Currently, the city still stands. Hence, Jeremiah’s prophecy has only had its first fulfillment. There remains a later destruction of Jerusalem that will exhaust the prophecy of Jeremiah. It is to that day Jesus was referring when He used the term Gehenna in Matt. 23:33. In that passage Jesus says, 29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. 31 Consequently, you bear witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up then the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of GEHENNA. Later in the same passage, verse 37 Jesus applies this prophetic sentence of doom upon Jerusalem itself, saying, 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! After Jeremiah linked Gehenna to the destruction of Jerusalem through his prophecy of the broken jar, the term itself began to take on a prophetic meaning beyond the mere geographical location. It became a symbol of divine judgment upon those who rejected the word of the Lord through the prophets (and Jesus Himself). Jerusalem had killed the prophets as well as the Son, and this sealed its ultimate fate as Jeremiah said. In fact, in the same passage in Matthew 23 Jesus prophesied a later time in which Jerusalem would fill its cup of iniquity just prior to its final destruction. Verses 34-36 read: 34 Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city. 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation [genea, “race, offspring”]. Jesus warned the believers to flee from Jerusalem when they saw the city surrounded by foreign armies. They did so in 66-67 A.D. at the first siege of Jerusalem. However, since Jerusalem was subsequently rebuilt, we see the same warning applicable today. Those believers living in Jerusalem and the Israeli state should take heed to Jesus’ words once again and flee the city before its destruction occurs. They should not count upon God saving the city at the last minute, for Jeremiah’s prophecy is very clear. The city and nation WILL be destroyed in such a way that it cannot be repaired again. The term, Gehenna, was a Hebrew word that was not necessarily familiar to Greeks or Romans. So we find that Jesus used this term eleven times when speaking of judgment upon the unbelievers in His audience. (See Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9, 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5.) His use of this term, instead of Hades (“the place or state of the dead”) gives his words a specific flavor, for He was warning them that if they did not believe His words, they would see Jeremiah’s prophecy of destruction fulfilled. And they, as individuals, would find themselves cast into Gehenna. Jeremiah had prophesied that that valley would become “the valley of slaughter.” Jesus spoke more of Gehenna than of Hades. We will not do a complete study of Jesus’ words about Gehenna, but it would be useful to look at one specific passage in Mark 9:47, 48, 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell [Gehenna], 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. Jesus was quoting and commenting upon Isaiah 66:24, which says, 24 Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched [Greek: “is not quenched”]; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind. Isaiah was writing specifically about the old and new Jerusalem (66:10) and the new heavens and the new earth (66:22). That is why Jesus used the term Gehenna, rather than Hades. It was a symbol of judgment upon the wicked. By the time Jesus walked the earth, Gehenna was no longer used for human sacrifice, but was the city dump. It was also the place where they cast the unclaimed bodies of criminals that had been executed or crucified. Like many dumps today, Gehenna was always smoldering, because it was fueled by the trash that people threw into it. But because it also contained organic matter, dead animals and men, it also was continuously infested with maggots (“worms”). It is often claimed that this is a picture of a burning “hell” torturing conscious sinners in an afterlife, but that is an extended and unwarranted interpretation of this passage. First of all, neither Isaiah nor Jesus meant to imply that the worms were immortal, but rather that there were always worms there. Maggots live for a while and die after breeding more maggots. Likewise, the fire is not perpetual. The point is that no man can quench it. Only God can quench this fire. The NASB above shows the bias of the translators when it renders the phrase too strongly, “shall not be quenched.” The literal rendering of the phrase is simply “is not quenched,” that is, not by any man. That is, the fire of judgment will surely come, and no man can prevent it. This word, Gehenna, refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the slaughter occurring at this city’s final judgment, because its citizens had become God’s enemies. Most have been taught that the “enemies” being slaughtered are non-Jews of some kind who come from other nations to destroy the Israeli state. But the prophecies do not tell us that they are non-Jews; they say simply that they are God’s enemies who have come from those foreign lands. The way God defines His “enemies” in the law, the prophets, and in the New Testament shows that the judgment is upon the unbelieving Jews who are returning to the old land without first repenting of their hostility against Jesus Christ. The law of tribulation found in Lev. 26:40-42 (and, indeed, the entire chapter) sets forth the principle that if the people were hostile to Yahweh (who is Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form), then Yahweh would be an enemy to them as well. The only way to stop being God’s enemy is to do as He says in Lev. 26:40-42, 40 If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me— 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies—or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land. An enemy is one who is not reconciled to another. As long as anyone—including any unbelieving Jew—is hostile to Jesus Christ, they are legally defined as God’s “enemies.” Furthermore, the laws of tribulation make it clear that God will not remember His covenant with Abraham until the people repent. In Isaiah 63:9, 10 the prophet gives us a specific example of this, saying, 9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; and He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. This happened all through the book of Judges, where God “sold them” into the hands of their enemies because of their sin. (See Judges 3:8 and 4:2.) God never reversed their captivities until the people repented. God also became their enemy when He gave their land to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (Jer. 27:6). The captivity was finally reversed after 70 years, not only because it was the appointed time (Jer. 25:11; Dan. 9:2), but also because Daniel repented on behalf of his people for the sins of their fathers. This fulfilled the conditions of the law. This idea carries over into the New Testament as well. In Matthew 22:1-7 Jesus told a parable about the servants who refused to come to the wedding. Verses 6 and 7 say, 6 And the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged and sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and set their city on fire. Jesus specifically called the inhabitants of Jerusalem “enemies” in Luke 19, where the “citizens” (i.e., citizens of Judea) hated Him and did not want Him to rule over them (Luke 19:14). Jesus’ verdict in verse 27 was, 27 But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here [Jerusalem] and slay them in my presence. The Apostle Paul likewise says in Philippians 3:18, 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ. Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem (Matt. 23:27, 28) would be destroyed with its temple (Matt. 24:2) because of the unbelief of its citizens. This occurred in 70 A.D., and God imposed upon them a “yoke of iron” (Deut. 28:48), which was God’s sentence of exile. In the early 1900’s the Zionist movement began, by which the Jews—still in a state of unbelief—decided to end their exile by force, rather than by fulfilling the conditions laid down in Lev. 26:40-42. Hence, their return as “enemies” put them in a position of fulfilling the prophecies of destruction in Gehenna. In their blindness they are being led to slaughter, and much of the evangelical Church encourages them as they go into the fire. Yet God in His mercy has caused the majority of the Jews to remain in other countries, in spite of Zionist browbeating. Perhaps when the final destruction comes, many of these will be sufficiently shocked and disillusioned with Zionism and Judaism itself and will be ready to hear the Word of the Lord and accept Jesus as the Messiah. The only other one who used the term, Gehenna, was Jesus’ brother, James, in James 3:6. James most likely wrote his epistle in Hebrew, using the term Ben-hinnom, but it has come down to us in Greek, where the translation reads Gehenna. He says that a man’s tongue “defiles the entire body and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by GEHENNA.” James was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, and so his audience was familiar with the term, both its geographical location as well as its symbolic application. James wrote that the tongue is a like the rudder of a ship. Even as the rudder sets the course of the ship, so also does the tongue set “the course of our life.” And if that course was evil, then those individuals would go down with the ship. Gehenna, then, was really a prophetic judgment directed against Jerusalem and its citizens who refused to believe the prophets or accept the Messiah. It did not directly refer to the actual state or place of the dead, which is Hades.

I have been to Trenton, New Jersey. My buddy lives there now. He has an apartment over looking the river that separates New Jersey with Pennsylvania. What is the name of that river? Is it the Delaware? I was just there this last January as I had some business to do with my friend. Good news the Trenton Makes bridge is still there. My buddy who is a graphic artist even sells tee-shirts of the bridge. I am his screen printer. Hello all you Joisey people.