Mark Sanguinetti

Allan says, Allan, I have followed Mark's posts here for some time and he is not a "Pope wannabe". In contrast, I have not read very much of your posts, and do not know much about you, but are you a Wierwille apologist? The reason that I say this here is because if anyone was a pope wannabe it was Victor Wierwille. Wierwille, used a similar religious power structure that has been practiced by the Roman Catholic church for centuries. The Roman church used this power structure to oppress God's people through the middle ages and to murder many of God's people if they appeared to be a threat to their political/religious influence. Sadly Wierwille thought this power system was biblical and he said so on more than a few occasions. In turn Wierwille used a form of this system to lord over God's heritage and to bully God's people when they did not please him the same as any petty dictator would. Wierwille, was more than a pope wannabe. He was in practice the pope of the Way denomination. And for you to call another poster here a pope wannabe when all he did was quote from 1 Corin. 3:10 and following and say that "Fire purifies" is not only insulting, but shows a lack of godly fruit on your part. Allan, I hope your Grease Spot Cafe doctrinal experience will be a pleasant and beneficial one and I hope this one statement does not exhibit your true attitude here. However, I think you should be more open to others views. If you do you will be surprised as to what you can learn here.

We had a long discussion on this pertaining to Universalism. It is a good read. Here is the link from Grease Spot Cafe. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=5186

A good point Jerry. One worthy of consideration. I consider myself a good bible student. However, I must confess that I was not aware of the significance of the "men of Belial" as you have pointed out from the scriptures. Discussion to be continued......

Sirguess, please read the verses in chapter 20. Notice that the children of Israel did not inquire of God in prayer until verse 18. Prior to this both sides had already amassed their considerable armies and thus had in essence already committed to civil war. As to the specifics of what it means to inquire of God from Judges 20:18, I will need to think about this. Is that what you are asking? But I can say that their inquiry did not contain any compassion or thought for the lives that were going to be lost in a civil war.

Jerry, did you read the earlier passages of scripture from Judges chapter 19? Do you realize that the man whose concubine was killed pushed out his concubine and in essence gave her to an angry mob of cut throats and rapists looking for sexual blood sport? Then after she dies he cuts up her body in 12 pieces and sends individual pieces to the 12 tribes of Israel. Why didn't he stand up for her when these holigans came looking for blood and sick adventure? He obviously inflamed the 12 tribes of Israel and they ended up having a civil war. Do you think that is a surprise? I don't. Somebody had to show a cool head in all of this. No one did until 40,000 people died. Additionally, read the following scriptures. They did not inquire of God until verse 18. By this time they had already made up their minds to go to war. They only asked God in verse 18, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" They had already committed to war. Asking God was an after thought. This from a nation built on the words of prophets is unacceptable. Judg 20:1-17 20:1 Then all the Israelites from Dan to Beersheba and from the land of Gilead came out as one man and assembled before the LORD in Mizpah. 2 The leaders of all the people of the tribes of Israel took their places in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand soldiers armed with swords. 3(The Benjamites heard that the Israelites had gone up to Mizpah.) Then the Israelites said, "Tell us how this awful thing happened." 4 So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, "I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. 5 During the night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died. 6 I took my concubine, cut her into pieces and sent one piece to each region of Israel's inheritance, because they committed this lewd and disgraceful act in Israel. 7 Now, all you Israelites, speak up and give your verdict." 8 All the people rose as one man, saying, "None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we'll do to Gibeah: We'll go up against it as the lot directs. 10 We'll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for all this vileness done in Israel." 11 So all the men of Israel got together and united as one man against the city. 12 The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel." But the Benjamites would not listen to their fellow Israelites. 14 From their towns they came together at Gibeah to fight against the Israelites. 15 At once the Benjamites mobilized twenty-six thousand swordsmen from their towns, in addition to seven hundred chosen men from those living in Gibeah. 16 Among all these soldiers there were seven hundred chosen men who were left-handed, each of whom could sling a stone at a hair and not miss. 17 Israel, apart from Benjamin, mustered four hundred thousand swordsmen, all of them fighting men. Judg 20:18-28 18 The Israelites went up to Bethel and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first." 19 The next morning the Israelites got up and pitched camp near Gibeah. 20 The men of Israel went out to fight the Benjamites and took up battle positions against them at Gibeah. 21 The Benjamites came out of Gibeah and cut down twenty-two thousand Israelites on the battlefield that day. 22 But the men of Israel encouraged one another and again took up their positions where they had stationed themselves the first day. 23 The Israelites went up and wept before the LORD until evening, and they inquired of the LORD. They said, "Shall we go up again to battle against the Benjamites, our brothers?" The LORD answered, "Go up against them." 24 Then the Israelites drew near to Benjamin the second day. 25 This time, when the Benjamites came out from Gibeah to oppose them, they cut down another eighteen thousand Israelites, all of them armed with swords. 26 Then the Israelites, all the people, went up to Bethel, and there they sat weeping before the LORD. They fasted that day until evening and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to the LORD. 27 And the Israelites inquired of the LORD. (In those days the ark of the covenant of God was there, 28 with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, ministering before it.) They asked, "Shall we go up again to battle with Benjamin our brother, or not?" The LORD responded, "Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands." NIV Please note verse 28. Only until this time do they ask God whether or not they should go to battle against the Benjamites. Previously they had amassed their armies and committed themselves to war. Naturally a civil war would follow this. How could it have been otherwise?

I think you understand most of this Lindy. You wisely questioned the poor treatment of the concubine woman by her, let's call it male escort. You were correct in surmising that her male should have protected her instead of throwing her to the scrap heap. This combined with the fact that after her death she was cut into 12 pieces and sent to the twelve tribes of Israel tells us that there was a lot of hard hearted sin and cruelty in their culture. No wonder they were so quick to go to war with their brethren the Benjamites. Now you have raised another good question. In essence does God cause people to commit evil acts? Even a cursory reading of the Old Testament tells us that God gets credit for both good and evil in the Old Testament. There are numerous verses showing this. For example, Moses with the Pharoah in Egypt. Pharoah at times was ready to let the children of Israel go free. Then the bible says that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he did not let the children of Israel free from Egyptian captivity. Then Moses prayed and communed with God again and told the Pharaoh that more castastrophe would happen. Did God literally cause the Pharaoh to have a hard heart and thus keep the children of Israel in bondage or is this fugurative? Another example of this is in the book of Samuel. King Saul in Samuel 16:14-16, 18:10 and 19:9 says that he received an evil spirit from the Lord. Of course, we do find out in the New Testament that Satan is actually the source of evil. And although God is more powerful he allows Satan to bring evil upon man to humble him. Otherwise if things went great for man all the time he would probably think that he did not need God. Human nature in effect. So this is certainly a good question that you have one that has been debated quite a bit. My view is that God allows evil to humble man and with this man can grow and ultimately overcome evil with good. Of course that takes faith and perseverance attributes that God admires and wants man to grow in. Lindy, there is another aspect in answering your question. You seem to be hinting at it, however I would like you to read the following scriptures and then tell us what you think. Ezek 14:1-8 14:1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.' 6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices! 7 "'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD. NIV

Hi Lindy: Try reading starting in the first verse of chapter 20. It looks like the Israelites were ready to fight the Benjamites from the start. It looks like they had already made up their minds to go to war before inquiring of the Lord for guidance and wisdom. In cutting up the woman into 12 pieces and sending each to the 12 tribes it likely infamed hostilities well beyond law and order and subsequent justice. A mob mentality of vengeance likely ruled instead of inquiring of the Lord for justice and seeking the Lord in prayer. Also try rereading the above posted article. Judges 20:1-17 20:1 Then all the Israelites from Dan to Beersheba and from the land of Gilead came out as one man and assembled before the LORD in Mizpah. 2 The leaders of all the people of the tribes of Israel took their places in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand soldiers armed with swords. 3(The Benjamites heard that the Israelites had gone up to Mizpah.) Then the Israelites said, "Tell us how this awful thing happened." 4 So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, "I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. 5 During the night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died. 6 I took my concubine, cut her into pieces and sent one piece to each region of Israel's inheritance, because they committed this lewd and disgraceful act in Israel. 7 Now, all you Israelites, speak up and give your verdict." 8 All the people rose as one man, saying, "None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we'll do to Gibeah: We'll go up against it as the lot directs. 10 We'll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for all this vileness done in Israel." 11 So all the men of Israel got together and united as one man against the city. 12 The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel." But the Benjamites would not listen to their fellow Israelites. 14 From their towns they came together at Gibeah to fight against the Israelites. 15 At once the Benjamites mobilized twenty-six thousand swordsmen from their towns, in addition to seven hundred chosen men from those living in Gibeah. 16 Among all these soldiers there were seven hundred chosen men who were left-handed, each of whom could sling a stone at a hair and not miss. 17 Israel, apart from Benjamin, mustered four hundred thousand swordsmen, all of them fighting men. NIV

This is truly a historic day Def. We should occasionally remind each other of this. Years from now we can look back and say, "Yea know back in June, 2005 Mark and I actually agreed on a point of biblical wisdom and knowledge." But yea never know, maybe lightning will strike twice on another point of spiritual significance. ;)-->

Def59 says, That is it Def. They could have avoided a civil war by seeking God in prayer and having a little compassion for the innocent lives to be lost on both sides. Instead 40,000 died first from Israel and likely most from the tribe of Judah because they were the most religious and likely the prime accusers even though they forgot to seek God in prayer. Then 25,000 died from the house of Benjamin with this almost wiping out their whole tribe. This sort of gives new meaning to the scripture "Judge not lest ye be judged." As long as Israel was doing the judging they needed to first clean out the sin in their own camp before trying to bring the will of God upon others. Unless they were living God's will themselves how were they to bring this to others? And thanks for your entertaining and informative post Lindy.

I am glad you guys (Lindy and Def) enjoyed the bible teaching. I will try to post comments or another related teaching later. For now I have to get back to work. Catch yea later.

This is also posted in Politics Decaffeinated. I thought this was good enough to post in two places on this forum so that more people read it. From Stephen Jones' "Bible Laws On Righteous Judgement". The Benjamite War Another good biblical example of the Supreme Court (the author is referring figuratively to God's righteous Supreme court) is found in Judges 19-21. In this case, a few men of the tribe of Benjamin were guilty of rape and murder. The victim’s husband, a Levite, brought charges against the men, but the Benjamite tribe itself refused to give up the guilty men to be tried in court. Thus, the entire tribe of Benjamin became guilty and worthy of judgment. Anyone who prevents justice from being done assumes liability for the injustice. This includes judges who pervert justice and false witnesses. Unfortunately, the whole situation then went from bad to worse. The accusing tribes approached the tribe of Benjamin with pride and accusation, instead of in meekness and love. They came essentially as an army of 400,000 to execute the criminals before trial (Judges 20:2). They assumed guilt before they had even heard the case. Judges 20:12, 13 says, 12 Then the tribes of Israel sent men through the entire tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What is this wickedness that has taken place among you? 13 Now then, deliver up the men, the worthless fellows in Gibeah, that we may put them to death and remove this wickedness from Israel." But the sons of Benjamin would not listen to the voice of their brothers, the sons of Israel. The actual guilt of the Benjamites is clear, for the Bible tells us specifically that this rape/murder took place, and the tribe itself refused to do justly in the case. However, we also see underlying this story the self-righteousness of the rest of the tribes. It is not enough to seek justice. One must seek justice in a prescribed manner in order to judge and not be judged as well. In their self-righteous zeal, the tribes went to God for answers. They received the right answer, but they asked the wrong question, as we read in Judges 20:18, 18 Now the sons of Israel arose, went up to Bethel, and inquired of God, and said, "Who shall go up first for us to battle against the sons of Benjamin?" Then the LORD said," Judah shall go up first. " In asking God who was to lead the charge against Benjamin, they assumed beforehand that they were to do battle. They should have asked God first how to handle the situation. If they had done so, I believe God would have told them to go to the Benjamites in love and meekness, perhaps after a time of prayer and fasting, making sure that they were not putting any stumblingblocks in front of the Benjamites. If that appeal did not work, they still should not assume that they were to go to war. War is the option of last resort. First they should have appealed to the Supreme Court for justice to be done. Then they would have been ready to ask God if He wanted them to go to war to actually enforce God’s judgment upon the tribe of Benjamin. But Israel had already make up their minds to do battle, because the Levite had enflamed their emotions. So God said for Judah to go first into battle against Benjamin. They were obedient. Judges 20:20 says, 20 And the men of Israel went out to battle against Benjamin, and the men of Israel arrayed for battle against them at Gibeah. 21 Then the sons of Benjamin came out of Gibeah and felled to the ground on that day 22,000 men of Israel. Judah obeyed the Word of the Lord, but Judah still lost the battle. How is this possible? Obviously, God planned to judge the accusers first. Judah must have been the prime accuser here. That tribe was always the most zealous and most religious of the tribes of Israel. It is not surprising that many years later in Jesus’ day, the tribe of Judah was so zealous, but also so self-righteous (pharisaical). Judah could hardly believe they had lost 22,000 soldiers in this battle. After all, they were only “being obedient to God.” So Israel immediately set themselves up to do battle once again. Judges 20:22, 23 says, 22 But the people, the men of Israel, encouraged themselves and arrayed for battle again in the place where they had arrayed themselves the first day. 23 And the sons of Israel went up and wept before the LORD until evening, and inquired of the LORD, saying, "Shall we again draw near for battle against the sons of my brother Benjamin?" And the LORD said, "Go up against him." We see here that Israel now finally asked the correct question, “Shall we again draw near for battle?” Having lost the first battle, they wondered if they should be fighting them at all. But by this time the law had been set into motion, and God’s verdict was that 40,000 men of Israel must die for their own sin before God would judge Benjamin for their sin. So in the next battle, another 18,000 soldiers of Israel died, as Judges 20:24, 25 says, 24 Then the sons of Israel came against the sons of Benjamin the second day. 25 And Benjamin went out against them from Gibeah the second day and felled to the ground again 18,000 men of the sons of Israel; all these drew the sword. This completed the judgment that God had decreed upon Israel. Only then did the Israelites begin to recognize that God was judging them for their own sin first. So they set aside the next day as a day of fasting and prayer, offering burnt offerings to God to atone for their own sins. It is a tragedy that they did not think to do this in the first place, for then they could have averted much if not all of the judgment upon themselves—and probably would have averted the civil war altogether. After prayer and fasting, Israel returned to ask God once again if they should do battle. This time it was the right question and with the right motive. Judges 20:28 says, 28 and Phinehas the son of Eleazar, Aaron's son, stood before it to minister in those days, saying, "Shall I yet again go out to battle against the sons of my brother Benjamin, or shall I cease?" And the LORD said, "Go up, for tomorrow I will deliver them into your hand." This time the tide of battle turned against the Benjamites, as God began to judge them for their sin. Keep in mind that the Israelites had prayed and fasted and had offered up sacrifices on behalf of their own sins—but they had done nothing on behalf of the sins of Benjamin. Thus, there was very little mercy available to the tribe of Benjamin. Judgment came, and there was no one to stand in the gap, no intercessor to plead their case. This too was a great tragedy—as great then as it would be today. Nearly the entire tribe of Benjamin was destroyed. Over 25,000 Benjamites were killed, and only 600 men remained before the Israelites finally—at last—forgave and released Benjamin. Only AFTER that final battle did Israel intercede for their brother tribe by offering up sacrifices for them. Judges 21:2-4 says, 2 So the people came to Bethel and sat there before God until evening, and lifted up their voices and wept bitterly. 3 And they said, "Why, O LORD, God of Israel, has this come about in Israel, so that one tribe should be missing today in Israel?" 4 And it came about the next day that the people arose early and built an altar there, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. Once the tribe was nearly destroyed, the rest of Israel began to play the role of Defense Attorney, or the Advocate of Benjamin. Now they stopped being the Prosecutor, or Adversary. Only then did they search the law to use it as an instrument of mercy, rather than for judgment (Judges 21:16-24). What a terrible way to learn to restore your brother in a spirit of meekness and humility! Christians, too, must learn this lesson. John 14:16 speaks of the Holy Spirit using the term “comforter.” The Greek word is Paraclete, which is the word for a Defense Attorney, one who gives aid and comfort to a person being charged with a crime in a court of law. If we do the works of our Father, our major role in life will be to use the law for the good of the people. If your “client” has sinned and is in danger of God’s judgment, the Christian’s role is not to put away the law, but to show the sinner how to utilize the proper lawful provisions for sin, in order that he might be justified in the divine court. Yet many assume the role of the Adversary in the court room—that is, the Prosecutor. The Greek word for Adversary is Diabolos, or “devil.” All devils, by definition, are Prosecuting Attorneys who accuse men of sin in an attempt to destroy them. Christians ought not to be “children of the devil,” doing the works of their father (John 8:44). If Israel had understood these basic principles, Biblical history would be quite different. Yet 65,000 Israelites died, not only because of sin, but because the “righteous” people did not know the basic principles of love, mercy, and judgment. Just as the ancient kingdom was lost for want of a nail for the shoe of the horse for the king for the army for the kingdom—so also the tribe of Benjamin was destroyed for want of a little love in approaching the tribe with the accusation of sin. For lack of love, mercy was lost; for lack of mercy, 65,000 lives were lost. Judgment is also coming to America because of her sin that she allows in her midst. Will she have any to stand in the gap for her, that lives will be spared? Or will the church continue to call down fire from heaven upon the sinners? Are we doomed to repeat the ignorance of Israel in times past? There is no way we can underestimate the importance of learning this lesson BEFORE the dead litter our own streets. Remember, the life you spare may be your own.

Def59 says, Def, you already know that it is by grace that we are saved and not by works. Also that we have to accept the finished work of Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation from God. But you are correct in that without Jesus Christ, no one would receive eternal life.

Def: I have posted literally pages and pages and pages of material as to why aion is an age with a very long, but limited time period. As I have stated before many of the scriptural usages say clearly an end to the age. They are already on this thread in 2 or more places. Can you find them? Others seem to have. Here you go Def. No extra charge and thanks for asking. Maybe people need to review this. And thanks for helping me grow in patience. A few of the usages of "aion" that show "aion" to have an ending are directly below. All English words in quotation marks in the below verses are the word "aion" in the Greek. That is Strong's number 165 for all you bible students. Matt 13:39-40 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world". KJV Matt 13:49 49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, KJV Matt 24:3 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"? KJV Matt 28:20 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen. KJV 1 Cor 2:6 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought KJV 1 Cor 10:11 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come. KJV Heb 9:26 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.KJV Below we see "aion" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "aion" is not synonymous with eternal or forever. Luke 1:70 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began: KJV John 9:32 32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. KJV Acts 3:21 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began". KJV Acts 15:18 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world". KJV Eph 3:9 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: KJV Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonymous with eternal or forever. Matt 12:32 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come. KJV Luke 18:30 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting. KJV 1 Cor 2:7 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory:KJV Eph 2:7 7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.KJV Heb 6:5 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come, KJV And below we have usages of "aion" which show that it has a present time that is distinct from both the future and the past. Gal 1:4-5 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen. KJV Eph 1:21 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come: KJV 2 Tim 4:10 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. KJV

With regard to the book of Enoch and your statement Jerry. Perhaps you are referring to the many places in the book of Enoch that tells of the rising and setting of the sun. There is similar language in other writings including that which we commonly refer to as canonical. Here is an example from Ecclesiastes. Eccl 1:3-6 3 What does man gain from all his labor at which he toils under the sun? 4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. 5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. 6 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. NIV This teaches us about the cyclical nature of all things including the toils of man, history and prophecy. I am confident that the book of Enoch's references to the rising of the sun and moon refer to the same or a similar truth.

With regard to the book of Enoch. I have a copy I made as a computer file. I have read it in its entirety. I just reviewed some of it. Most of this book is written in the first person as one would write a personal diary with Enoch the chief character. Some is written from the third person with Enoch again the chief character. I just read that some people think the book of Enoch was written by a Jew and not Enoch himself. Another person said this Jew wrote the book of Enoch perhaps between 150-80 BC. After reading the book of Enoch and noticing both its content and writing style I would have to think that this Jewish person had quite an imagination. I say this with sarcasm. For someone to write such a work without the benefit of previously written text I think is impossible. And I don't think oral tradition would cut it either so as to be able to write such detailed accounts pertaining to specific incidents that occured a few thousand years before his time and without actually having been an eye witness. Again the book of Enoch for the large part was written in first person by someone who says there name was Enoch who actually experienced the incidents described. If a Jewish scribe did write what we have today as the book of Enoch it is more likely that he compiled the written works that were handed down before his time. Either that or this Jew had an incredible imagination and tried to pull off the biggest hoax of his or any day.

Absolutely Danny. If the book of Enoch was in fact written by Enoch himself. Then who better to corraborate this than Enoch who would have lived through this and been an eye witness of this pre flood time period. Actually, Enoch is the foundation for this knowledge of demon/angels cohabitation. The other biblical writers making reference learned this from reading Enoch. And this should be clear because Jude quotes Enoch in his epistle and the book of Genesis corraborates Enoch's testimony.

Some good points CM and Sunesis. As you might have read CM from one of my previous posts, I too see the significance of good fruit and God teaching us through his holy spirit. So I would say we are on the same page. Sunesis, you bring up some often over looked scripture. Do you have some scriptural references for us to examine? Do you have software where you can quickly paste them to this forum thread? And can you add some of your commentary on these scriptures? It sounds like you are refering to the angels who cohabitated with women and produced the demon/human offspring that brought great evil to the earth and got destroyed in the flood. I see the possibilities of this actually having occured, but wanted to hear your views on this and how this ties in with this general discussion.

In order for God to judge man. He has to use the law. Unfortunately, the application of the law that we see today is either very pharisaical or lawless (without law). This is often the case in Christian circles. They, especially so called Christian leaders, can be very pharisaical with their interpretation of the law. Jesus ran into those types quite a bit in his earthly ministry and used to get a kick out making them look stupid. Christians can also go to the other extreme and be lawless saying that one does not have to follow the law at all. Some how, they say, Jesus did away with it. Actually, Jesus did not do away with the law. He fullfilled it and changed the application for you and I. Instead of the priests sacrificing animals constantly. He was the sacrifice once and for all. Instead of purification by blood or water, we are made pure by the blood and water that came out of Jesus' side at the cross. Instead of going to the temple, God now inhabits our bodies as Temples of the holy spirit. In each of these cases, we do not violate the law, we merely fulfill its requirements in a different and better manner thanks to the new covenant through Jesus Christ. It is basically the same law, but a different application thereof. Shall we apply the law like the pharisees did in Jesus' time? Or should we apply the law with grace and truth like Jesus did in his earthly ministry? The law is still the basis for God's jugement of man. Romans 4:15 says, Rom 4:15 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. NKJV Without this law there is no judgement of man. This is the yardstick for the great white throne judgement written of in the final part of the book of Revelation. This is the basis for God's judgement of the sins of all of mankind and not just for those who call on the name of Jesus Christ. Again shall we expect God to judge man with his law and apply it like a pharisee? Or do we expect God to judge man using his law like Jesus his only begotten Son would with grace and truth? This reminds me. The foundation of all grace is the law of jubilee. This law says that in the 50th year all debts are to be forgiven. Lev 25:10 10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property and each to his own clan. NIV This is what I base the reconciliation of all men to God on. According to this law which you can read about in Leviticus chapter 25, a man who has a debt and has to work as a bond servant to pay it off can be redeemed by a next of kin. For believers in Jesus Christ, Jesus is our next of kin who pays off our debt of sin so that we may be redeemed from what we owe. What then of those who do not believe in Jesus and have no next of kin to pay back their debt? They too will be set free from their debt at the end of time for Leviticus 25:54 reads, Lev 25:54 54 "'Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, NIV Again the redempion of man is based on God's law. I know this teaching of the law is likely to be different than what we previously have known. Much of this knowledge has either been neglected or offered like a pharisee would teach it in Jesus' day. However, try reading the 25th chapter of Leviticus for yourself with the above in mind. Ask yourself how the spirit of this law might be applied at God's great and final judgement spoken of in the book of Revelation. Leviticus 25: 1-55 1 The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and commanded him 2 to give the following regulations to the people of Israel. When you enter the land that the LORD is giving you, you shall honor the LORD by not cultivating the land every seventh year. 3 You shall plant your fields, prune your vineyards, and gather your crops for six years. 4 But the seventh year is to be a year of complete rest for the land, a year dedicated to the LORD. Do not plant your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 Do not even harvest the grain that grows by itself without being planted, and do not gather the grapes from your unpruned vines; it is a year of complete rest for the land. 6 Although the land has not been cultivated during that year, it will provide food for you, your slaves, your hired men, the foreigners living with you, 7 your domestic animals, and the wild animals in your fields. Everything that it produces may be eaten. The Year of Restoration 8 Count seven times seven years, a total of forty-nine years. 9 Then, on the tenth day of the seventh month, the Day of Atonement, send a man to blow a trumpet throughout the whole land. 10 In this way you shall set the fiftieth year apart and proclaim freedom to all the inhabitants of the land. During this year all property that has been sold shall be restored to the original owner or his descendants, and anyone who has been sold as a slave shall return to his family. 11 You shall not plant your fields or harvest the grain that grows by itself or gather the grapes in your unpruned vineyards. 12 The whole year shall be sacred for you; you shall eat only what the fields produce of themselves. 13 In this year all property that has been sold shall be restored to its original owner. 14 So when you sell land to your fellow Israelite or buy land from him, do not deal unfairly. 15 The price is to be set according to the number of years the land can produce crops before the next Year of Restoration. 16 If there are many years, the price shall be higher, but if there are only a few years, the price shall be lower, because what is being sold is the number of crops the land can produce. 17 Do not cheat a fellow Israelite, but obey the LORD your God. The Problem of the Seventh Year 18 Obey all the LORD's laws and commands, so that you may live in safety in the land. 19 The land will produce its crops, and you will have all you want to eat and will live in safety. 20 But someone may ask what there will be to eat during the seventh year, when no fields are planted and no crops gathered. 21 The LORD will bless the land in the sixth year so that it will produce enough food for two years. 22 When you plant your fields in the eighth year, you will still be eating what you harvested during the sixth year, and you will have enough to eat until the crops you plant that year are harvested. Restoration of Property 23 Your land must not be sold on a permanent basis, because you do not own it; it belongs to God, and you are like foreigners who are allowed to make use of it. 24 When land is sold, the right of the original owner to buy it back must be recognized. 25 If an Israelite becomes poor and is forced to sell his land, his closest relative is to buy it back. 26 A man who has no relative to buy it back may later become prosperous and have enough to buy it back himself. 27 In that case he must pay to the man who bought it a sum that will make up for the years remaining until the next Year of Restoration, when he would in any event recover his land. 28 But if he does not have enough money to buy the land back, it remains under the control of the man who bought it until the next Year of Restoration. In that year it will be returned to its original owner. 29 If a man sells a house in a walled city, he has the right to buy it back during the first full year from the date of sale. 30 But if he does not buy it back within the year, he loses the right of repurchase, and the house becomes the permanent property of the purchaser and his descendants; it will not be returned in the Year of Restoration. 31 But houses in unwalled villages are to be treated like fields; the original owner has the right to buy them back, and they are to be returned in the Year of Restoration. 32 However, Levites have the right to buy back at any time their property in the cities assigned to them. 33 If a house in one of these cities is sold by a Levite and is not bought back, it must be returned in the Year of Restoration, because the houses which the Levites own in their cities are their permanent property among the people of Israel. 34 But the pasture land around the Levite cities shall never be sold; it is their property forever. Loans to the Poor 35 If a fellow Israelite living near you becomes poor and cannot support himself, you must provide for him as you would for a hired man, so that he can continue to live near you. 36 Do not charge him any interest, but obey God and let your fellow Israelite live near you. 37 Do not make him pay interest on the money you lend him, and do not make a profit on the food you sell him. 38 This is the command of the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt in order to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God. Release of Slaves 39 If a fellow Israelite living near you becomes so poor that he sells himself to you as a slave, you shall not make him do the work of a slave. 40 He shall stay with you as a hired man and serve you until the next Year of Restoration. 41 At that time he and his children shall leave you and return to his family and to the property of his ancestors. 42 The people of Israel are the LORD's slaves, and he brought them out of Egypt; they must not be sold into slavery. 43 Do not treat them harshly, but obey your God. 44 If you need slaves, you may buy them from the nations around you. 45 You may also buy the children of the foreigners who are living among you. Such children born in your land may become your property, 46 and you may leave them as an inheritance to your sons, whom they must serve as long as they live. But you must not treat any of your fellow Israelites harshly. 47 Suppose a foreigner living with you becomes rich, while a fellow Israelite becomes poor and sells himself as a slave to that foreigner or to a member of his family. 48 After he is sold, he still has the right to be bought back. One of his brothers 49 or his uncle or his cousin or another of his close relatives may buy him back; or if he himself earns enough, he may buy his own freedom. 50 He must consult the one who bought him, and they must count the years from the time he sold himself until the next Year of Restoration and must set the price for his release on the basis of the wages paid a hired man. 51 He must refund a part of the purchase price according to the number of years left, 53 as if he had been hired on an annual basis. His master must not treat him harshly. 54 If he is not set free in any of these ways, he and his children must be set free in the next Year of Restoration. 55 An Israelite cannot be a permanent slave, because the people of Israel are the LORD's slaves. He brought them out of Egypt; he is the LORD their God. TEV

Thanks Radar. I would love to see you too. You were always one of my favorites. And thanks for not mentioning that I had to literally beg for playing time at my college, Chico State. ;)-->

Well, I will respond now. I think a number of people are making some good points and learning some new things from God's word. Also a number of people seem to be enjoying it. I even heard from one of my college room mates who has not posted here, but says he is following this thread with interest. I think even Def59, who started this thread, is enjoying it.

Just Found Out: So you are a soccer player too? I was a soccer player for my college, Chico State University. Where did you end up going to college?

You guys are bringing up some good points for consideration. The bible talks about being chastened of the Lord in Hebrews. God does this now so that we may partake of His holiness and righteousness both now and in the next age. Heb 12:5-11 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. KJV Heb 12:5-11 5 Have you forgotten the encouraging words which God speaks to you as his sons? "My son, pay attention when the Lord corrects you,and do not be discouraged when he rebukes you. 6 Because the Lord corrects everyone he loves,and punishes everyone he accepts as a son." 7 Endure what you suffer as being a father's punishment; your suffering shows that God is treating you as his sons. Was there ever a son who was not punished by his father? 8 If you are not punished, as all his sons are, it means you are not real sons, but bastards. 9 In the case of our human fathers, they punished us and we respected them. How much more, then, should we submit to our spiritual Father and live! 10 Our human fathers punished us for a short time, as it seemed right to them; but God does it for our own good, so that we may share his holiness. 11 When we are punished, it seems to us at the time something to make us sad, not glad. Later, however, those who have been disciplined by such punishment reap the peaceful reward of a righteous life. TEV For the unbelievers who do not know God they will not be chastened in the same way that you and I are now. However, they too will not be without chastening if they are to also partake of God's holiness and receive eternal life. This is what I believe the lake of fire is about. The unbelievers will be judged, then they go into the lake of fire for there own version of chastening. I am not sure what that will all entail, but some of them I imagine will be there for a very long time. According to God's law the year of Jubilee occurs in the 49th year. With this all debts are forgiven. For the man of sin who knows not Christ as his Lord sin is a form of debt that they too will finally be forgiven of at the end of the age of the lake and fire. For your consideration I offer the following parable pertaining to the Kingdom of heaven and the importance of forgiveness. Matt 18:23-35 23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." NIV

Thanks for the information on beards Galen. I am wondering if Song thinks that your beard makes you look like a rocker. He likes that, but wants to know if you have ever played with ZZ Top or been on one of their videos? Rock on Bros.

Thanks Galen. What is most important is that your gal Bonnie likes your beard. I just hope that it does not scratch her when it comes to kissing time. I like your photo too. It makes you look like a rugged mountain man. I am just wondering if the photo was taken before or after you traveled to town for provisions?

Galen, I have been meaning to ask you. Is that a photo of you with the big smile and long black beard?