Mark Sanguinetti

Thank you Dot. Coming from you especially that is a great compliment. Especially since I know you are a lady of great courage and integrity. Anyway I have to go now because I have a Real Estate test to take in a couple of hours. And thanks for reposting my letter also Tom. Yes, I think everyone involved or formerly involved with TWI or CES should read my letter dated November 2000. Actually though, I may have not thought to post it here until Pawtucket jogged my memory on what I knew. Thanks also Paw.

On page 10 I posted a 5 page letter that I sent to the 3 CES leaders in November, 2000. If you have not yet read this letter and you want to have some background on how CES picked up their bad habit go to page 10 and then scroll down the page a bit until you find my post. I was looking on the Internet via a Google search for Christian International Bill Hamon. Yes, this is where CES picked up their personal prophecy error. I found one article so far with link below mixed in with a bunch of other links of religious propaganda. I have not had time to read it. Maybe it is good so check it out. Later on, if I can find it, I have a 40 page paper exposing a great deal of Christian International's folly which I have read in its entirety. I got it from a former poster here, Mark Coomer. He might have even written it. Maybe I will have more time for this later. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/hamon.html Yep, that is a good read above. Written in 2000, the same year I wrote my letter to the 3 CES leaders. Here is another link to check out also. http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_bill_hamon.html

Sorry to hear the news George. I think you are taking this with great courage and dignity. Of course, I am the prayerful type (believe it or not after our many jousts on the political forum). I will be praying for you now rather than arguing with you about politics. You are now on the top of my prayer list.

Pawtucket asked me about the origins of CES and personal prophecy. Here is a letter that I wrote to the 3 CES leaders in Novemeber of 2000. Jeff, if you are out there you would especially benefit by reading this. Dear John Schoenheit, John Lynn and Mark Graeser: In an E-mail dated October 25, John Schoenheit asked me the following: “I am unclear about exactly what doctrines you think we teach in error. Please let me know.” In response to this I have written the following to all three of the CES brethren. This was originally E-Mailed to John Schoenheit on November 1, 2000. The root cause of all doctrinal error by CES on the subject of prophecy, as I see it, is the unbiblical reasoning stemming from the phrase “eat the fish and throw away the bones” and all reasoning related to this. The context of this statement is that which was learned from and grafted into CES doctrine by Christian International out of Florida. In fact, these are the very words of their president Bill Hamon, and this phrase has been used by CES people. First of all, you and I both know that this is an unbiblical phrase. Instead I want you to be aware of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:15-23. 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' New International Version If these words are good enough for Jesus Christ to have taught his disciples when he was training and teaching them in preparation for the age of grace and receiving of the holy spirit, then why wouldn’t they be good enough for you and I? I want to especially bring your attention to the phrase, “by their fruit you will recognize them.” The bible says in Galations 5:22-23 that there are nine fruits of the spirit. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. King James Version Since Bill Hamon, by his own words, claims to be a prophet and a trainer of aspiring prophets let’s look at the fruit of some prophets in the bible for comparison. Moses happens to be my favorite prophet in the bible, other than Jesus Christ of course, and the prophet that most people are familiar with the life of. Num 12:3 3Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth. King James Version Num 12:3 Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth. New International Version Moses was not a great speaker. In fact, he had his own brother, Aaron speak for him often. The one and only quality that I know of, that separated Moses from every other man on the face of the earth was his meekness and humility. For a prophet the fruit of meekness and the heart felt attitude of humility is especially important. The reason is obvious. He has to be especially meek with God to be able to receive his Word. If he is not he could fall into all kinds of doctrinal error, unbelief and even idolatry and worship of false gods. Jesus Christ was also known for his meekness and was especially compassionate with people. Matt 11:29 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I (Christ) am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. The principle of meekness for receiving God’s Word is very clear for all believers regardless of their function in the body of Christ. James 1:21 21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. King James Version James 3:13-18 13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. 17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. New International Version The above is the kind of knowledge that we should seek, and not any knowledge which is even border line puffed up or full of conceit. Didn’t we get enough of this kind of knowledge in our years in the Way Ministry where we were always bragging that our knowledge of the bible was better than everyone else and hence our ministry was better also? Didn’t this kind of pride lead to its downfall? Prov 11:2 continues, 2When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom. New International Version Ps 25:9 9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way. King James Version 1 Peter 5:5-6 5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: King James Version Clearly, if we want to receive anything from God, especially His Word, we must be meek and humble for “God resisteth the proud.” This is especially true for someone who claims to be a prophet. Now I want you to look at some of the words of Bill Hamon, the man who claims to be a prophet. By your own words, this is the man from whom you are getting some of your material on prophecy as he is the president of Christian International. I ask you, are his words below the words of a man of meekness and humility or the words of someone with puffed up reasoning? Are these the words of a prophet of God or the words of a false prophet? Below are just a few samples. Hamon explains on pages 59 and 60 of his book, “Prophets and the Prophetic Movement.” The Prophetic movement is part of the Holy Spirit’s continuing work of bringing the Church to full restoration. The restoration of Christ’s ascension gift of a prophet is absolutely essential for God’s purpose in the Church to be accomplished. The company of prophets will help restore the apostles back into their rightful place in the Church. The full restoration of apostles and prophets back into the Church will then bring divine order, unity, purity and maturity to the corporate Body of Christ. The saints will be equipped and activated in the supernatural power of God to be a witness and demonstration to all nations of the powerful kingdom of God. That will in turn bring about the end of this world system of humanity and Satan’s rule. The fulfillment of all these will release Christ, who has been seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, to return literally and set up His everlasting Kingdom over all the earth. As the prophet Daniel foretold, the stone (the Church) that was hewn out of the mountain (Christ) will continue to grow in strength and momentum like the snowball rolling down the mountain, until it hits the feet of the giant world empires, causing them to crumble and come into submission to Christ. The above Hamon doctrine does not magnify, nor hold to, the head of the body, which is Christ and is even worse than the old Way teaching that we take the place of the absent Christ by the renewing of our minds. It implies that the Lord Jesus Christ won’t return for or gather his Church without the works and dominion of the Church, and that somehow the Church must release Christ from heaven. How arrogant and utterly false. In his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 57 Hamon says, In the wilderness journey the people were covered and protected by a cloud by day and warmed, enlightened and directed by a fire by night. But for the Prophetic Movement in Canaan, the Apostle is the covering and protecting cloud and the Prophet is the enlightening and directing fire. That is one reason why apostles and prophets must be restored before the Church can fulfill its predestinated end-time purpose on earth. Also written in his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 7 it says on Oct. 1, 1953, Bill Hamon received these words of personal prophecy concerning his ministry: “Yea, is not this the day that thou shalt go forth in His might and His Power? Have I not said in My Word Concerning My own children, “Ye are gods,” and yea in these last days ye shall go forth as gods? Thou shalt go forth as gods with power in thine hands, and minister life and faith unto those that are desolate. Yea, I say unto thee, thou shalt be a leader of leaders. Yea, thou shalt see multitudes running unto thee, for as a light upon a tall hill shalt thou be. Yea, fear shall be in the hearts of those round about thee, yet thou shalt stand as one full of courage, saith the Lord.” No mention is made by Hamon that God was speaking derogatorily to the judges of Israel when he said “ye are gods.” Furthermore, He did not subsequently bless them with power in their hands.” In context Psalms 82:5-7 reads, 5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. King James Version The only other usage of “ye are gods” in the old testament is Isaiah 41:23. In context, Isaiah 41:21-24 reads, 21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. 23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. 24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you. King James Version Regarding these scriptures, from the Wycliffe bible commentary it reads, Turning now to idol-worshiping Gentiles, Jehovah challenges them to prove the reality and power of their idols by the test of prophecy and fulfillment (v. 22). His people charge these false gods with being utterly unable to fore-announce their will and purpose, through their prophets, and then carry it out. Whoever spoke this prophecy of Bill Hamon’s early ministry above, spoke it like an in the flesh false prophet of biblical proportions. This is not something to be proud of to say the least. Neither would you expect the recipient of such a prophecy to “go forth” with anything but arrogance and false pride. The worst part of Hamon’s teachings, however, may be his excuses for false prophecies. I understand he has over 600 pages consisting of over 150,000 words of personal prophecy concerning himself that he has collected over the years. With so much prophecy, I can understand why he needs to make excuses for inaccurate errant ones. If his original prophecy above was contrary to the Word of God, why should subsequent prophecies be any better? With so much error in doctrine and prophecies, why should you learn from him, his subordinates or associates? Couldn’t you learn from better sources or work the Word of God for yourself? From Hamon’s book Prophets and Personal Prophecy page 158 it reads, At the time, we must not be quick to call someone a false prophet simply because something he said was inaccurate or did not seem to apply to us. The man may be honest, righteous, and upright, yet immature in his prophesying. He may have misinterpreted what the Lord was saying. In this case we should say that he gave an inaccurate word or a false prophecy, but we cannot properly call him a false prophet unless we can prove that the man himself is false. Missing it a few times in prophecy does not make a false prophet. No mortal prophet is infallible; all are liable to make mistakes. Where is this in the bible? How does this compare to Deuteronomy 18:18-22? 18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." 21You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. New International Version You asked me what doctrines do I think CES has been teaching in error. Like Bill Hamon, have you been teaching that prophecy isn't always 100 percent accurate? What about in the bible when a prophet of God says “thus says the Lord”, “thus says the Holy Spirit”, or “this is what the Lord says.” Are they speaking falsely or truly? In Christ, Mark Sanguinetti

Jeff: I consider myself a friend of both John Schoenheit and John Lynn. I warned all three of them (Mark, John and John) very clearly about using prophecy in this manner a few years ago. I mostly talked to John Schoenheit about this because Mark Graeser was a bit overwhelmed with my e-mails. I thought John finally got the message. A couple of years ago when I went to a CES fellowship John said that they were lessening the importance of prophecy in their ministry. Now, I hear this craziness from Karen Ann. I think you have a problem Jeff. I think you should be very firm with them. Be as loving as possible, but very firm. Of course, the alternative is seeing CES drop over a cliff and then crash and burn. No one wants that to happen. If you need any more feedback send me a private message. I am somewhat familiar with the history of this problem and where it originated from.

Dear Jeff: Thanks for sharing what is going on with CES. However, I know Dan Gallagher personally. I think he is very bright and extremely loyal. I think anyone (male or female) that fires him is crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy. Jeff, in the Way denomination to much of an empahasis was placed on revelation versus simply following the wisdom that God brings to each and every heart that seeks him. If you are still hearing voices in order to make major decisions rather that letting the full counsel of God come to your heart then you are headed down a slippery slope. If God is going to tell me something I am not just going to hear one faint voice. God is going to tell me to the end that my entire logic and reasoning system is persuaded beyond doubt. If not then the voices could be anything and I have to be honest with myself and recognize that. The voices may be the man on the moon for all I know. I think Dan Gallagher is a man of vision. I have my doubts about the vision of someone who fires him however. But then again maybe CES is doing him a favor. He is a talented man. I think he will make out just fine. As for CES, I have my doubts. But thanks for setting the record straight Jeff. We appreciate your candor.

Happy Birthday Rocky. You are one of the wisest most politically astute persons on this entire site. And you ROCK dude. Had to say that to counteract some of the posts and karma by the right wingers here. Peace, Bro

It sounds to me like O.J. Simpson is flaunting the fact that he murdered two people and got away with it.

No Sudo, but let me guess about that contest. Did the judging and the chilli winner have anything to do with the greatest flatulence after consumption?

That was a good one. A very clean joke that was also very funny. Did you think that one up Sudo? Or is there a deep dark secret behind a seemingly innocent, yet funny story?

Tom, you really scored with that one. And Tom. Is it really your birthday? Because it sounds like you had a good day. And almost a really good day.

Hey, is that the University of Michigan band? They sound very good if they are actually doing the playing. That music sounds way better than the Ohio song. Just hanging out here because you guys play good music. Here is what those dudes are singing: Hail! to the victors valiant Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best Hail! to the victors valiant Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes Hail! Hail! to Michigan, the champions of the West!

Probably after the last out similar to his ALCS prediction.

Wow, someone that actually reads what I write. Is that a novelty? I am surprised that you are a Yankee fan. Didn't you live in Alameda for a few years? And now you live in So Cal. Bay Area and So Cal people normally aren't Yankee fans. What about the USC Trojans, the Bruins, the Lakers, the Dodgers, the Angels, the Kings, the Ducks, the Clippers?

By golly it does sort of look like a yellow slug at that. Very observant of you Hills.

Only a Yankee fan would be truly offended by my burnt toast comment. You're not a Yankee fan are you Highway29?

The Yankees smell and look like burnt toast after losing three straight to the Tigers in the American League Playoffs. The two teams with good pitching and defense, the Tigers and Athletics, will just have to battle it out for the title.

The A's do have a very goood defensive team. Perhaps the best in baseball. However, they lost their second basemen, Mark Ellis, who set an all time fielding record for highest fielding percentage this year so they have to find a replacement. Ron Washington, is the best fielding coach in the major leagues though. He will have them ready. When Eric Chavez won one of his gold gloves at third base he gave it to Ron Washington. He is that good as an infield coach. During the year I pretty much knew about how many games the A's would win over a 162 game season. The A's have a deep bench and some pretty good major league players. Over a short series though it is pretty much of a crap shoot. Whoever gets hot at the end wins.

And the New York Yankees are burnt toast. Sorry Yankee fans. I could not resist the dig. But then maybe the NY Mets will fair better. Actually, I like the Mets so I hope it will be the Oakland Athletics versus the New York Mets in the World Series.

Happy Birthday Cowgirl. I hope all is well with you.

Thanks Roy. I especially enjoyed the topless car wash. Very cool.

Seth, that is quite a leap. Wierwille apparently was good at using religious condemnation to get his way and intimidate people. Now you are saying that he would have people killed. That is quite a leap. I talked to a friend of mine who was in the Way corps and spent some time with Wierwille. I asked him if he ever used intimidation with him. He said he never did. Frankly, I think Wierewille instinctively knew who he could intimidate and throw temper tantrums with to get his way and who this would not have worked on. Yea, apparently Wierwille was a whinning petty little tyrant, but some people this won't work with. I think for those people he tried to sweet talk. I think he was probably very good at this also. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? But really, I don't want to chastize a dead man. Just sorry I never had the opportunity while he was still among the living if what people say about him is true.

Great posts Dot Matrix. Thanks much. I never knew Victor Wierwille was such a pi$$y little tyrant. It sounds like you did a great job in confronting him and others about their psychotic behavior. Sorry I was not there to back you up, but California is sort of a long way from Ohio and like many people I did not know about his true lifestyle until after his death. I did get to talk to the tyrant once though. I ran into him at the Grand Ole Opry House hotel in 1984 at Sound Out 84 when he was hanging out with his buddy Howard Allen. I was a WOW that year and while hiding my name tag from his view told him that he looked familiar, but I could not remember his name. I assured him that it was on the tip of my tongue, but it sounded something like weir (also pronounced wear) something or rather. After reading your previous posts here it sounds like I may have been unwittingly offering him advise to be fulled dressed at his next session of depravity. But at least he had a sense of humor. He told me his name was Wherewolf and I wondered to myself what did you do to deserve that name? Little did I know, but I sure wish I would have. It would have been quite theraputic to give him a piece of my mind, if I would have known some of the evil which he committed. And by that time I was thoroughly disgusted with the Way Tree power structure and how they did not esteem all believers the same and esteemed a few at the expense of others. It would have been fun to break that up. Nevertheless, great posts Dot. Great heart, bold as brass, and well stated. You rock girl. I like people that speak their mind and that have a sense of honor and justice to back this up. Carry on. But the next time you chastise an evil doer who is also a religious hypocritical tyrant please let me know because I want to get in on the fun also. Thanks much. And one more thing. This is for Medic's wife. As long as you are in the process of studying biblical teachings. Read the linked study below. I may be bias, but I think it is better than anything Wierwille ever wrote because this study glorifies the Lord Jesus and when everything was all said and done in the final analysis Wierwille mostly wanted to glorify himself. http://www.waychrist.com/Lordship_JC.htm

I recommend reading the biblical study with link below pertaining to this subject of hierarchy in the church. http://www.waychrist.com/Lordship_JC.htm

Happy Birthday Andy.