Mark Sanguinetti

I can verify what therebutforgrace has written. CES people are reading Grease Spot Cafe posts. In fact, someone in CES got my posts mixed up with someone else's here and sent this to John Lynn who I am trying to offer counsel to. I decided to correct this matter by sending John all my Grease Spot Cafe posts where I mention his name as I have absolutely nothing to hide here. Fortunately, the person that gave John the wrong information by saying that my posts ripped up John Lynn confessed to John that he was mistaken. That my posts have not ripped up John Lynn. Instead they have been very critical of CES's use of personal prophecy in their ministry. I have only been telling them this for 6+ years. And I am not the first to tell them this either. Others came before me. Some of these people have been Grease Spot Cafe posters as well, for example Mark Coomer and Steve Lortz. We have all been telling CES for many years that their use of personal prophecy was going to eventually at least, get them in serious trouble. They are slow, but are learning S L O W L Y. Or at least I hope. Gee guys, do you have to have one CES person sue the others with the misuse of personal prophecy playing a large role in this, before you can see that your use of personal prophecy needs to be dramatically changed?

Arthur, from what you just wrote, you don't sound that interested in the contents of the book. With so many books available why would you then want to read this one? Frankly, I am not going to give you a copy of this book for free either. Mostly because you don't really sound interested in the contents. If you are not really interested why go through the motions of reading it? And it is a scholarly book in my opinion. It is even well foot noted. And actually I originally bought three copies of this book. I gave one of them away to a friend who was never in the way or CES, but who was in the process of reading the bible from cover to cover. I was impressed by that as she also showed good insights and comprehension in our conversations about what she had read.

Hi Arthur: It is a good book. I have two copies. One of which has never been used. Would you be willing to pay for it? I would sell it to you for less than $29 plus book rate shipping. Do you know how private messaging works here? Just click on my name and then click send message if you are interested.

You really sound like sour grapes now Uptown1. If you want to talk to believers in Christ then start acting Christ like because your last post sounded like the words of a pharisee. People here have offered you sound explanations and without animosity as to their faith and biblical/spiritual understanding. You have returned the favor now with animosity, hostility and arrogance. You are sounding more and more like a CES leader who when he can't get people to see things his way sues his partners. So which is the real you? Like TWI leaders who acted like Christian ministers sometimes and then pharisees at other times your words now are double minded. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are haughty, yet they always have a rationalization. Don't expect to win any converts in this manner for your words and actions.

Uptown, do yourself a favor and study 1 corin. chapter 12 and then get back to us on this. But let me give you a small hint. Is being a pastor of a church (or something similar) the only important worthwhile job in the body of Christ? If you already know that the answer to this is NO, then please stop writing posts like you think this is the case.

The above is 100% correct. However, you saying that most ex-way people have not done much is factually incorrect and very short sighted. How do you know what ex-way people have done since leaving TWI? Many have got into business with success. I know of 2 people in Gilroy, CA who started a church/ministry including ownership of the physical church building. Incidentally, Karen Ann Graeser was very jealous of this when she heard about it after a CES meeting in California. A former Grease Spot Cafe poster is now a minister of a church in New York city. Pawtucket started a great web site and forum called Grease Spot Cafe. And I just recently passed the Real Estate broker's license exam for the state of California. And these are just a few examples.

Well, Uptown, if you talk to John Lynn or John S. see if you can get them to replace the "eat the fish and throw away the bones" unscriptural dogma with Jesus' actual words and wisdom, "by their fruit you will know them". Otherwise they are going to continue to be prey for every religious conartist that they run across. I tried the last few weeks with two long phone conversations with John Lynn, but he is still holding this errant dogma like his religious life depends on it. And the last time I talked to John Lynn he also still thinks that the prophecies the CES board gave to Elizabeth are true. Even though myself and others have clearly told him that they were false. Being corrected with meekness is often very difficult for people in religious high places. I think his biblical teaching ministry is in serious jeopardy and unless he makes drastic changes in his head and heart he may not get it back. Unless of course one considers a small ex-way cult following a biblical teaching ministry which I do not. Of course, he can always continue his SAT teaching for high school kids which at this time sounds like a good thing for him. And in retrospect Uptown, I like the way you are going about this. With an example of meekness for CES. However, have they ever listened to you to the end that they strongly considered your words? Actually, now that I think about it, Dan Gallagher says he has in recent e-mails to and from him. Like yourself I hope these guys can get back on track. The proof of the pudding though is still, "by their fruit you will know them".

UpTown1, in responding to your post, from what I have seen CES leaders have quite a ways to go to get back on track. And there basic disregard for Jesus' words, "by their fruit you will know them" means they have been vulnerable to every charleton and religious con artist that they come across. Two obvious examples are momentous and personal prophecy which they picked up from influences directly or indirectly outside of their circle of believing friends. You would think they could have found teachings outside of their circle that were more truthful and godly and less manipulative and controlling. What they chose instead speaks volumes to who they are or who they have become. And there are no more excuses for them as there has been a sufficient number of people ready, willing and able to point them in the right direction. At this time, you and I have more spiritual/biblical/godly/practical sense. And instead of relying on them for biblical research we should do our own.

Excathedra, I like your posts on this thread. Looking over CES's codes of conduct and then posting what their own leaders are failing to do is a good idea. Keep up the good work. And did you find your bird yet? I will say a prayer for that also. I love critters of all kinds.

Socks, do you mind if I borrow this? I am experiencing momentary writer's block and could not come up with anything nearly as witty and funny, yet so very true.

Tzaia says, Are you refering to yourself? Or do you think Mark Sanguinetti from Northern California is my made up ficticious name? And are the scriptures below clear enough for you or do you need a commentary? Also did you even bother to look at them after 1Broken1 posted these on page 2 here? 1 Corinthians 6:1-8 DARE ANY OF YOU, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I SPEAK TO YOUR SHAME. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. WHY DO YE NOT RATHER TAKE WRONG? WHY DO YE NOT RATHER SUFFER YOURSELVES TO BE DEFRAUDED? 8 NAY, YE DO WRONG, AND DEFRAUD, AND THAT YOUR BRETHREN.

Tzaia says, So then why has he betrayed the others and slapped them with a defamation of character suit?

I am not a lawyer, but nevertheless I have to agree with notinKansas. Elizabeth looks to have a legitimate defamation of character lawsuit if she wants it. I am wondering when the statute of limitations runs out for this. In contrast, all the Graeser's have is smoke, mirrors and the potential for a lot of money going down a rat hole. Let's hope they come to their senses.

A basic problem with CES is that they are to organization focused and not enough people focused. With that in mind I don't really care who there new president is. I would rather see a change of heart from their leaders and whether or not they can change from leaders to servants which is what Jesus wants of his disciples.

Unless changes of the heart come to the CES leaders their ministry will change from fishers of men to fish food. It looks like Mark Graeser is pulling a Wierwille. If he can't have this ministry he is going to try to bring it to ashes. Yea right Mark Graeser. As if a number of CES people can't file defamation of character lawsuits against you. When you were president there were likely many examples of defamation of character against CES for the words and actions of their leaders and false prophets based on the teachings that you helped bring to CES. The guy might as well have a defamation of character lawsuit against himself. Graeser sounds like he is on a self destruct course. Sort of reminds me of a 5 year old that won't share his toys. Or one that cries when he can't get his way. But you know in talking to him 3 or 4 years ago he really did sound like a nice guy. I think this greedy stuff may be coming from his wife who I have talked to also. She struck me as a power seeker and the two other believers that were with me when we talked to her felt exactly the same way. In fact, we were sort of amazed when after telling her that my two friends had bought a church building, she sounded like she wanted control of the church building for CES meetings and wondered why my friends had it and not CES. The woman sounded like she was on a power trip plain and simple. I thought of writing to both John L and John S right after that incident, but didn't. Not sure that they would have listened to me anyway. So I guess they are finding out the hard way now. Oh and I have a little prophecy of my own for Mark Graeser. Keep on this course and you will be broke and destitute. Either that or you have a lot of money to blow which I don't think you do. So Graeser, why don't you try settling out of court with the other CES people? They will probably make you a fair offer. "Oh, I want it all" says Graeser. Fine then, go the way of broke and destitute, but don't beg from any of us when you hit the bottom because we won't be listening.

That about sums it up. Thank you Belle.

I listened to John Juedes' evaluation of CES because I have recently been in council with two of the CES leaders. I can confidently say that John Juedes' evaluation and insights regarding CES and personal prophecy are right on target and correct. In fact, his statement towards the end of the episode hits the bullseye of the crux of the problem with CES.

An old girlfriend and I did this once in Northern Nevada. It sounds similar. On the last day came the time-share presentation. It was myself, my girl friend and a younger sales lady. We lucked out and did not get much of a hard sell from her as I think she was somewhat new to it all. When her boss kept peaking over her shoulder to find out how she was doing I kept telling him what an outstanding job she was doing. When they found out we were not actually married it was sort of a shock for them. However, I explained to them that I was very upfront about this with my original phone soliciter. And we were able to finally make it out of there without signing on the dotted line and with at least a small amount of our dignity left. Have fun Jonny.

Happy Birthday Bill. I hope your health is improving.

Great Post Dot. Many of us here on Grease Spot Cafe are with you 100% on it, especially me. Thanks for writing it for us. You are a lady of courage with a strong unyielding sense of justice. I only wish more people had the same. CES leaders should have apologized to Elizabeth for all the bad treatment that they gave her. I really have to draw a line in the sand on this. Until those that were involved in Elizabeth's smear tactics come clean and apologize I will never give them the respect that they seek.

Well, I suppose I should offer my comment since I read John Lynn's letter. Nice letter John, with one exception. If he still can't see the problem with Personal Prophecy he is just setting himself up for the next fall. Now John my old buddy. Tell us all. Did you get the good words and heart that you expressed in your letters by thinking things through over a period of time while weighing these matters pertaining to your problem and comparing it with the bible? Or did you get it by a quick fix, namely a mysterious vision or dream or did you just open your mouth and all these good words suddenly came out? Or did you get these good words by taking a pen in your hand and then starting to write and without much thought or awareness suddenly and spontaneously great words came to your paper which solved all your problems? Don't mind me. I am just wondering out loud.

RichnCrispy reminds me of an experience that I had a few years ago. I was dating a Peruvian girl at the time and I went with her to a church in San Francisco that she liked and occasionally attended. I was sitting towards the back of the church and they had some light skinned guy supposedly ministering to a dark skinned latin male. This was after or during a teaching the light skinned man was supposedly doing. I say supposedly because, although he was speaking a great deal, he was not actually ministering or teaching at least as far as I was concerned. Rather he had this guy on both knees prostate before him in a very worshipful pose. And this was over an extended period of time. And honestly the light skinned male looked like he was of Spanish descent and the dark skinned male looked like he was of Mayan or Aztec descent. Needless to say when I saw this my blood started to boil and I had to refrain myself from speaking aloud and/or walking up to the guy in front of everyone on the spot and telling him how he was a fraudulent minister to do this in Jesus' name. Considering the fact that Jesus served rather than was served by his followers. I held my tongue though. It seemed like a very long time that he had this guy prostate before him while he spoke his words in Spanish or perhaps the words were spoken in both English and Spanish. Finally after he was done I bolted up to the guy and told him clearly that what he was doing was wrong and that his so called ministering reminded me of the Spanish Inquisition. He spoke English and Spanish. Good thing for him that he had enough sense not to argue with me about this because I would have filleted and roasted him on the spot. And enjoyed the experience greatly. Instead he sort of apologetically nodded as if to say, but I did not really mean anything of harm and isn't this what other church leaders do?

Abigail made a good post on the top of page 27. I am still sorting all this out. However, it sounds like CES through their witch hunt which they used to call the Prophetic Action Council (Is this the correct name?) sabotaged John Lynn and Elizabeth's marriage. A couple of questions to think about. Why is CES so meddlesome and deliberately destructive to the personal lives of others? Why didn't John Lynn take a real stand and defend Elizabeth against false accusations? It seems apparent that CES now has copied the same horrific habits that The Way International had and has. They are ruled by a corporate hierarchy instead of following the laws of service and love that Jesus taught his disciples. They both elevate the spiritual phenomena (signs) of their rulers, ruling directors or councils above the written word of God. And above the wisdom and application of God's word that is acquired through experience, hard work and study over a period of time. In CES's case personal prophecy. In TWI's case revelation.

ckmkeon: I just e-mailed John Lynn asking him if the letters allegedly sent by CES members regarding Elizabeth are authentic. You can read these letters on "The Facts" thread here. These letters read like a Salem witchcraft trial and I specifically asked John if they were authentic. Would you like to know what John says about them? And I will keep writing and/or calling him until I get an adequate explanation. And no, I already have enough hobbies. However I am, as are others here on this forum, deeply concerned for their sanity.

I started to read some of the CES false prophecies on Elizabeth Lynn from the thread "The Facts", that Captain Crunch started, but it reminded me too much of a Salem witch hunt so I stopped. I got the message. Those people are insane. And I would not hesitate to tell them so face to face. With love of course. Then I read the first couple of pages of Elizabeth Lynn's letter to John Lynn. Now there is a woman with a clear head and a sound mind even with lunatics dancing around her like they are at a Salem witch hunt. Thank God there are now laws against people getting burned at the stake. I agree with Dot. Karen Anne Graeser sounds like the witch of Endore. Come to think of it. I had a short conversation with her once at a CES function. I was with my friends Greg and Karen Kirkpatrick and we ran across Karen Anne Graeser as we were leaving. Some how it came up in our conversation with her that the Kirkpatrick's own a nice church building in Gilroy, CA where they have started a local church. What response did we get from Karen Anne about this? Nothing but petty jealousy. And this was plain to me and plain to the Kirkpatrick's. I almost wrote to John Lynn and John Schoenheit about this, but did not. If I was them I would not put up with any of her bad spiritual fruit. Elizabeth won't put up with it. Bravo Elizabeth. So what is wrong with John Lynn? Why did not he defend her from the wolves?