Mark Sanguinetti

Gen, I just check 8 different biblical versions using my bible study software. There is not even 1 usage of the word "rapture" in any of these 8 versions. "Rapture" may describe something, but this is an unbiblical word.

Looks like some scripturally astute observations by JeffSjo. As I recall we were taught in the Way ministry that first came the gathering together which only had those in the new testament body of Christ. Then came the the ressurection of the just which included the old testament believers. Then at the end came the resurrection of the unjust. After looking at the scriptures more carefully over time I now believe in just two resurrections. One for the just and one for the unjust. These two resurrections will take place at two different times. The scriptures in 1 Thes. 4:13-17 describe the first resurrection also known as the resurrection of the just. Here are scriptures that also describe the first resurrection, which is the resurrection of the just. Rev 20:4-6 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years. RSV And if you want to ask me about what is the mark on the forehead or hands described above. So much of the book of revelation is written with difficult imagery and symbols which are not literal, but represent spiritual truth. This is describing things that have to do with faithfullness in the words and message of Jesus Christ. Here are the scripture in 1 Thess 4:13-18 to compare. 13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. RSV Here are scriptures describing the second resurrection which is also called the resurrection of the unjust. Rev 20:11-15 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. RSV And here is a link to a web site which I just authored and placed on the world wide web which has a section dealing with what the lake of fire is. http://www.christian-universalism.info And this seems like a good discussion here. You don't need to add information from the web site which I just recently spent well over 100 hours to write and code and add it to this discussion. If you want to you can, but I may not have time to comment.

And a self righteous and selfish moron. I guess as long as Brit Hume keeps getting his pay checks there are no problems.

An analogy for any carpenters out there. You hit the nail directly on its head and drove it cleanly into the wood with your comments Soul Searcher. This latest oil spill sounds like it may be the worst one in the history of the world. This nation may be turning into a garbage dump. Could this country recover financially and environmentally? Yes, it could. With World War 2 there were many financial and environmental diasters and the nations recovered. But will it recover now? No, it will not recover with the current mind set that I see. I see far to much greed and a lack of a work ethic. When I say greed with a lack of a work ethic I mean people who want to and are allowed to make money on printed and borrowed money instead of actually producing goods and services. We have the worst form of a Babylonian system today in the banking business and the oil companies have to much control of our politicians. All they care about is their own profits and could care less about the country as a whole. The resources and effort that they put into clean-up may be miniscule. I have heard that they are mostly just trying to push the oil deeper into the ocean to hide it, but where it will kill sea life. The amount of oil leaking into our ocean is likely higher than the reports say because if the oil companies in the supposed clean up can push the oil deeper into the ocean it might be difficult to determine how much oil is actually leaking.

Sounds like a lot of planning has gone into this Herbie. Good work. Organic food is a good thing and may get more and more popular. Good to hear you involved in producing things of true value.

Nandon, the person you heard that from sounds like they have a screw loose. I have heard of meat eating cannibals before, but to now throw sex into the boiling pot takes this to an orgasmic level of derangement.

It is not a formula. It is a matter of building faith in the healer, Jesus Christ. Respect him. Make him your friend. Love him and believe in his ministry at the right hand of God. Jesus is the head of the body of Christ and makes intercession and mediates for the saints (believers) of God.

[twitter][/twitter] Actually the order of living things in Genesis 1 is vegetation and seed bearing plants, then the water and seas with living creatures, then the fowls of the air, then animals on the ground, then man. This order actually lines up with some scientific theories which state that the fish slowly evolved and came out of the seas to become the fowls of the air who slowly evolved to become land animals. And the days listed below gives a chronoligical order to creation, but a day does not have to represent one day. It could represent a long time period. And yes, there are many things in the bible which are figurative and not literal. And this is not uncommon with man's communication. For example, if one were to describe a heavy rain by saying it was raining cats and dogs or Jesus teaching with one of his parables as recorded in the gospels.

Spec, when I wrote my commentary on 1 Corinthians 12, I debated in my mind for a while as to whether "he" referred to man or God. This verse could read either way so I got input from about 5 other people on this. These scriptures were written 2000 years ago and not every verse is clear by itself. However, in looking at the overall context of the chapter, it is God that does the energizing through the spirit that he gives to man. Hence, my emphasis was and still is God first, man second. Man has a certain amount of will power, but man is limited according to his knowledge and abilities. God on the other hand is all powerful and with all knowledge and has limitless capabilities. 1 Cor 12:11 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. NKJV

You must have heard your puppets on a string analogy from place else. However, even Victor Wierwille said that we can not go beyond what we are taught. Without God's ability given to us we have and know nothing of value. And for your information I never even read your long post. I simply saw a thread on this subject. I have done a lot of research on it and so I posted it. And your comments are unnecessary because at least 5 other people have already analyzed my article when I orginally wrote it. It has been already edited a number of times. And yes 1 Corinthians 12:11 was part of that editing. However, I did read your latest post and I am hearing now an attitude that I am your competition on this subject. Why is that Spectrum? If you consider yourself a teacher why would you feel threatened by another teacher? Doesn't the bible say teachers (plural) and not teachers (singular)? And below is some bible commentary written by other bible teachers on 1 Corinthians 12:11. 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. As he will. The Spirit is the sovereign dispenser of the gifts. The words are a key to the following section, showing those apparently more favored in the gifts that there is no self-merit in them, and those less favored that there is no lack of importance for them (cf. Godet, op. cit., II, 206). (from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1962 by Moody Press) 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. [but all these worketh that one and the self-same Spirit] All these gifts are miraculously bestowed; they cannot be acquired by human art or industry, the different languages excepted; but they were given in such a way, and in such circumstances, as sufficiently proved that they also were miraculous gifts. (from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996 by Biblesoft) 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. [but all these] All these various endowments. [Worketh] Produces. All these are to be traced to him. [That one and the self-same Spirit] The Holy Spirit, Acts 2. They were all, though so different in themselves, to be traced to the Holy Spirit, just as all the natural endowments of people-their strength, memory, judgment, etc. -though so various in themselves are to be traced to the same God. [Dividing to every man severally] Conferring on each one as he pleases. He confers on each one that which he sees to be best, and most wise, and proper. [As he will] As he chooses or as in his view seems best. Dr. Doddridge remarks, that this word does "not so much express arbitrary pleasure, as a determination founded on "wise" counsel." It implies, however, that he does it as a sovereign; as he sees to be right and best. He distributes these favors as to him seems best adapted to promote the welfare of the whole church and to advance his cause. Some of the doctrines which are taught by this verse are the following: (l) The Holy Spirit is a "person." For, he acts as a person; distributes favors, confers endowments and special mercies "as he will." This proves that he is, in some respects, distinguished from the Father and the Son. It would be absurd to say of an "attribute" of God, that it confers favors, and distributes the various endowments of speaking with tongues, and raising the dead. And if so, then the Holy Spirit is "not" an attribute of God. (2) He is a sovereign. He gives to all as he pleases. In regard to spiritual endowments of the highest order, he deals with people as he does in the common endowments bestowed upon people, and as he does in temporal blessings. He does not bestow the same blessings on all, nor make all alike. He dispenses his favors by a rule which he has not made known, but which, we may be assured, is in accordance with wisdom and goodness. He wrongs no one; and he gives to all the favors which might be connected with eternal life. (3) No man should be proud of his endowments. Whatever they may be, they are the gifts of God, bestowed by his sovereign will and mercy. But assuredly we should not be proud of that which is the mere "gift" of another, and which has been bestowed, not in consequence of any merit of ours, but according to his mere sovereign will. (4) No man should be depressed, or should despise his own gifts, however humble they may be. In their own place, they may be as important as the higher endowments of others. That God has placed him where he is, or has given less splendid endowments than he has to others, is no fault of his. There is no crime in it; and he should, therefore, strive to improve his "one talent," and to make himself useful in the rank where he is placed. And, (5) No man should despise another because be is in a more bumble rank, or is less favored than himself. God has made the difference, and we should respect and honor his arrangements, and should show that "respect" and "honor" by regarding with kindness, and treating as fellow laborers with us, all who occupy a more humble rank than we do. (from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997 by Biblesoft)

http://www.christianherald.info/1-corinthians-12-page-1.html I have written a 12 page commentary on 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Above is a link to it. This was written a few years ago and I have already had other people help with the editing of it. I spent a lot of time studying, editing and writing this so if someone reads it they can learn a lot in a relatively short period of time.

I just saw this. Rocky, I hope you had a good birthday celebration.

I thought this was the doctrinal forum. Sky4it, you don't have any scriptures in what you have posted at all. As long as you are bringing up the name Lucifer and associating Lucifer with the devil you really do need a scriptural study because without it you may not have even heard of Lucifer.

Commenting on what Tzaia posted. I have not read the VPW book for many years and no longer have a copy. However, I do remember that one of the first chapters goes into some detail about the many usages in the New Testament where Jesus is called the Son of God. Therefore the book could have had this as the title. This would have not been controversial. But I have heard that VPW wanted the title to be controversial. I do however, agree with you on the book, "One God & One Lord". It is very good and is clearly better than the book by VPW.

Wierwille's book on this subject was actually pretty good. It was just named wrong. It should have been named in a more positive light. For example, the title of this book could have been: "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" Many scriptures that are quoted in the book's opening chapters say this and no Christian in their right mind would argue about this title. And yes, the trinitarians do in fact agree with the statement of this title. I know this because I have talked to a few. They have no argument with the bible saying that "Jesus is the Son of God.

Hi Tom: http://www.christianherald.info/1-corinthians-12-page-1.html I just reread the above article that I wrote after reading what you wrote here. I think your explanation of ONE spirit is very complimentary to this. I definitely explained this concept, because one spirit is written a few time in chapter 12. However your explanation of one spirit goes into more detail on this. Your explanation is very good. Yes, I understand that when we write we need time to refine so that people can understand what we write with ease of clarity. This takes time. When I wrote my article I must have refined it at lease 7 times. I also had about 5 other people read it while I was writing it to help with the refinement process and give me feed back and contribute with additional understanding. I like and see the importance in working with other knowledgeable people and want to work with you. I can see we would work well together. The only question that both of us needs to answer is how much time do we have to devote to this? Frankly, I wish there were 4 of me. One to do my manufacturing and screen printing business. Another to work real estate. I am a California licensed real estate broker. Another to do web site design. I am currently a student of this with a knowledge of HTML, Cascading style sheets, Dreamweaver, Flash and ActionScript. A fourth one of me to do biblical articles. I am going to send you my e-mail address in a PM. Have a good day Tom. Regards, Mark

Hi Tom: Good to hear from you. When we both get time we can exchange e-mail addresses. Sounds like you are in the process of doing a very good biblical research and teaching project. I definitely like your work so far. Keep up the good work bro. Regards, Mark

Hi Tom: I read what you posted and thought overall it was very good. If you wrote that, and I have no reason to believe that you did not, and would like to post this teaching on my web site, then I would post your article with your name as the author and with copy right notice in your name. My web site is as follows: http://www.christianherald.info I would put your teaching for now third on the list of teachings right after the teachings on the Lordship of Jesus Christ and 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Your writing would make a very good contribution and is the kind of written teaching that I seek.

I agree with you in principle Watered Garden and you made some good points. And getting back to Dot's original discussion points, we can clearly read that there were false apostles in the first century as well. And after Paul's statement in verse 13, Paul immediately expresses that "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". Or perhaps with VPW Satan disguised himself as some one who said they had new light, light that we had not seen the likes of since the first century. This to me in retrospect was a statement born of boastful talk and would classify one according to verse 12 as a false apostle.

Some good points here as stated by Wordwolf. Thanks my friend.

Happy Birthday George.

Below is a more biblically based definition of Apostle from the Nelson bible dictionary: APOSTLE The word apostle has a wider meaning in the letters of the apostle Paul. It includes people who, like himself, were not included in the Twelve, but who saw the risen Christ and were specially commissioned by Him. Paul's claim to be an apostle was questioned by others. He based his apostleship, however on the direct call of the exalted Lord who appeared to him on the Damascus Road and on the Lord's blessing of his ministry in winning converts and establishing churches (1 Cor 15:10). Apparently, Paul also counted James, the Lord's brother, as an apostle (Gal 1:19). This James was not one of the Twelve; in fact, he was not a believer in Jesus before the Crucifixion (John 7:5). It was the resurrected Lord who 'appeared to James' (1 Cor 15:7) and presumably commissioned him for his ministry. When Paul says Jesus was seen not only by James but also by "all the apostles" (1 Cor 15:7), he seems to be describing a wider group than "the Twelve" to whom Jesus appeared earlier (1 Cor 15:5). In 1 Cor 12:28 and Eph 4:11, apostles are listed along with prophets and other saints as part of the foundation of the household of God. In this strictly New Testament sense, apostles are confined to the first generation of Christians. At an early stage in the church's history it was agreed that apostles to the Jews and Gentiles should be divided into separate camps. Paul and Barnabas were to concentrate on the evangelization of Gentiles; Peter, John, and James (the Lord's brother) were to continue evangelizing Jews (Gal 2:7-9). As pioneers in the work of making converts and planting churches, apostles were exposed to special dangers. When persecution erupted, they were the primary targets for attack (1 Cor 4:9-13). Paul, in particular, welcomed the suffering which he endured as an apostle because it was his way of participating in the suffering of Christ (Rom 8:17; 2 Cor 1:5-7). The authority committed to the apostles by Christ was unique. It could not be transmitted to others. The apostles could install elders or other leaders and teachers in the churches, and they could authorize them to assume special responsiblities; but apostolic authority could not be transferred. Their authority has not come to us through their successors; it has come through their writings, which are contained in the New Testament. (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

If one wants to have some biblical help in how to bite back here is something posted on the Internet. http://www.christianherald.info/lordship-of-jesus-christ-page-1.html

I used to see an edit button before the update on this web site, but no more. Now I only see "Reply" and "Multiquote" underneath the plus minus symbols. But I am going to see if there is a refresh button that I can click. Maybe the web page needs to be updated for me. Thanks Hap. It is good to figure stuff out with others. Here is my edit: There it is. I clicked the refresh button with the up and then down green arrows at the top of the page towards the right hand side and now the edit button is back. Thanks for going over this with me Hap. Have a good day my friend.