Mark Sanguinetti

The information that I posted here I got from reading a chapter or two out of Ernest L. Martin's book Secrets of Golgotha. Ernest L. Martin was an author, historian and biblical theologist. Like E.W. Bullinger and another person that I don't remember the name of that Victor Wierwille learned about the holy spirit from. Ernest Martin, was one of the people I think that Wierwilled got his good biblical information from. Of course, he would always hint that he came up with the biblical information himself. I think the good biblical information that he had he got from other sources, one of those being Ernest L. Martin. The wrong teachings he may have thought up himself. Just information to consider. It is good to know the original source of biblical information that we have been taught so that we can evaluate it from the source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_L._Martin

If you want to see someone get out of the way it means recognizing their hierarchy is unbiblical and can be considered cultish. Help them to replace the Way leadership structure with the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Give them the below link to read. http://www.christianherald.info/lordship-of-jesus-christ-page-1.html

That is possible Twinky. Maybe that is true. But then maybe they did need to use an actual tree as a foundation. We would need to check actual history records to see if they had a place as you have described. That might mean a lot of killing to designate a place solely for that purpose. Or perhaps they just built some cross structures and then tore them down when they were done.

My above shortened post is based on an article I read by a knowledgeable full time bible teacher. Points to consider on whether Jesus was crucified on a literal tree or on wood that was cemented into the ground? Did they have time to do the work of cementation from Jesus' trial to his execution? If they did not there would have to have been something prebuilt for Jesus to be crucified on. If there wasn't they would need the time to build and let the ground foundation set upon which Jesus and the others were crucified on. I read that for fast crucifixtions they used a literal large tree to nail wood on and on this wood they would nail the person they wanted to crucify. Then they could do their dirty deed real fast. And a large tree could hold a few people. So the next question is was it a literal tree that Jesus was crucified on? Three bible verses in Acts say that Jesus was crucified on a tree. Or instead of a literal tree was it pieces of wood? But again the wood would have to be attached to a foundation of some kind.

Jesus was crucified on a tree according to biblical records. Crucifiction on an existing tree is a quick way to set up a crucifiction because a large tree already has roots for stability. Otherwise to set up a crucifiction you have to wait at least a day for the base of the crucifiction to harden. Sort of like concrete hardening today at a construction site. When you walk around a tree you could be walking in a circle. You could examine one person for death and then have the option of examining the person to the right or to the left next. Jesus could still be in the midst in this scanario regardless of whether he was examined second or third. Therefore 2 others likely died with Jesus. The good thing is God raised Jesus from the dead to sit at God's right hand and bring us closer to God, the Father.

I don't have time for a long post, but the main thing the devil and his devil spirits do to influence and gain power and control is the same thing the serpent did in the first chapters of Genesis with Eve and then Adam. Whisper lies in people's ears. The devil even tried to do this with Jesus Christ. Of course, Jesus is our example of what to do when we get lies whispered in our ears. Recognize the falseness and ask God for truth to overcome it. And if necessary or if you want to, rebuke the demonic liar in the name of Jesus Christ. The main things in life don't change. We get voices of truth whispered in our ears and lies whispered in our ears. The voices could come from our own minds with us analyzing information and wisdom. They could come from God and his Son via the gift of holy spirit with God enlightening us and making us smarter and wiser. Or they could come from a liar, a demonic spirit. We need to simply differentiate truth from error, pray to God for enlightenment and reject the lies. And hopefully smile while doing all three.

There are a few versions of this, but here is an easy to read and comprehend version. And here is the King James Version.

Naten00, if you really think all the many symbols in the book of Revelation are literal, then you need a better foundational understanding of the book of Revelation. Try reading the below from the Nelson Bible Dictionary. REVELATION OF JOHN The last book of the Bible, and the only book of APOCALYPTIC LITERATURE in the New Testament. Apocalypse, the title of this book in the original Greek, means "unveiling" or "disclosure" of hidden things known only to God. Other examples of apocalyptic literature can be found in the Old Testament in Daniel (chaps. Dan), Isaiah (24-27), Ezekiel (chaps. 37-41), and Zechariah (chaps. 9-12). Like its counterparts, the Book of Revelation depicts the end of the present age and the coming of God's future kingdom through symbols, images, and numbers. These symbols include an angel whose legs are pillars of fire, men who ride on horses while smiting the earth with plagues of destruction, and a fiery red dragon with seven heads and ten horns who crouches before a heavenly woman about to deliver a child. Why was apocalyptic literature written in such imagery? One reason is that these books were written in dangerous times when it was safer to hide one's message in imags than to speak plainly. Moreover, the symbolism preserved an element of mystery about details of time and place. The purpose of such symbolism, however, was not to confuse, but to inform and strengthen believers in the face of persecution. Although the keys to some symbols have been lost, the overall message of this book is clear: God is all-powerful. No countermoves of the devil, no matter how strong, can frustrate the righteous purposes of God. (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers) And yes, Cman. Our vision of the prophetic future is childlike and we see through a glass darkly according to 1 Corinthians 13.

Here is a link to a web site that I authored on this subject: Christian Universalism

When it says "fire", this is spiritual and figurative and not literal. Otherwise if it was a literal fire we would all burn to death. For example, when we received the holy spirit in Acts 2, if this was a literal fire instead of bringing in the holy spirit it would have scorched us. Has anyone here gotten a bad burn when receiving the holy spirit? Most people understand the above. Then when we come to the realization that much of the book of Revelation is figurative and not literal then the questions are what do the figurative symbols represent? The Greek words that I previously shared with you from people that know New Testament Greek should help.

Hi Twinky: When you mentioned purify, you are mentioning a similar concept, but different Greek words. At least from the below verse. 1 John 1:9 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. NIV I have very good bible study software on my computer that showed me this very quickly. The name of my software is PC Study Bible. And I just looked this up in Bullinger's Greek to English lexicon. I have a book copy of this. Here brimstone used in Rev. 21:8 is said to relate to "sulphur used in heathen purifications." This along with "fire from heaven" and "vengeance". Of course, "fire from heaven" is not literal. This is spiritual and figurative. Just like "fruit of the spirit" is not literal fruit, but uses the term fruit to represent godly attributes. Gal 5:22-23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. NIV

Adding to the above biblical information. Pertaining to the above quoted Revelation 21:8. The word brimstone, which is part of the lake of fire, actually pertains to purification and not torture. If you don't believe me then will you believe the Thayer's Greek to English lexicon?

A good question. One that I have been considering for the last few years. I was reading the final chapters of the book of Revelation today. I noticed the 12 gates and the 11 usages of this word for gates in the last two chapters of the bible. I have very good bible study software and was able to examine this very quickly while I am in the midst of a heavy business/work schedule. Revelations chapter 21 begins with, From this it looks like the followers and people that know, respect and/or love Jesus Christ are inside what the writer of this book calls the new Jerusalem. Outside of the new Jerusalem it looks like the other people are cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, etc. We have the truthful and loving people inside the New Jerusalem and the liars outside of the new Jerusalem in what is called the lake with fire and brimstone. I don't think the lake of fire will be pleasant for them with the state that they are in. However, I do not think this is all about torture. For example, one of the 12 usages of the Greek word for "burns" pertains to what John the Baptist experienced. Here is the verse, From the Thayer's lexicon, see the partial, but exact quote below. The word for burning can be used as a light showing the right way. Then there is the word "fire" used in Rev. 21:8. In Greek it is the word pur, which is Strong's number 4442. This Greek word is used 75 times in the New Testament. Here are 4 of the usages quoted below. Remember, these 4 usages are the same Greek word that is used in Revelation 21:8 and should help our understanding of what really will go on in the lake of fire. So it looks like when we gain more knowledge by seeing how the Greek words in Revelation 21:8 are used elsewhere in the New Testament, we realize that the lake of Fire, could have a cleansing affect on those who are in it. In addition to the discomfort and troubles they may experience. But then people today experience trouble and discomfort and hopefully can overcome at least some of it in their lifetime and hopefully learn and grow from the experience. So to sum things up the lake of Fire could be a lake of purification for those who are in it. Getting back to the 12 gates and 11 usages of this Greek word. Try reading the last two chapters of the book of Revelation and think about what is written. Then ask yourself the question, why would God use the word gates if no one was able to pass through the gates into the holy city, the new Jerusalem? If no one outside the gates was ever allowed to walk inside then why even have gates? Why not instead have a barb wire fence or a 12 foot wide brick wall. Of course, it does clearly say that no one that was an evil liar would be allowed to enter the gates to the new Jerusalem. But what if the cleansing affect of the lake of fire purified the sinful nature of the people outside the gates? Then would they be allowed to walk inside one of the 12 gates to the new Jerusalem? Something to think about and consider.

A good question. One that I have been considering for the last few years. I was reading the final chapters of the book of Revelation today. I noticed the 12 gates and the 11 usages of this word for gates in the last two chapters of the bible. I have very good bible study software and was able to examine this very quickly while I am in the midst of a heavy business/work schedule. Revelations chapter 21 begins with, From this it looks like the followers and people that know, respect and/or love Jesus Christ are inside what the writer of this book calls the new Jerusalem. Outside of the new Jerusalem it looks like the other people are cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, etc. We have the truthful and loving people inside the New Jerusalem and the liars outside of the new Jerusalem in what is called the lake with fire and brimstone. I don't think the lake of fire will be pleasant for them with the state that they are in. However, I do not think this is all about torture. For example, one of the 12 usages of the Greek word for "burns" pertains to what John the Baptist experienced. Here is the verse, From the Thayer's lexicon, see the partial, but exact quote below. The word for burning can be used as a light showing the right way. Then there is the word used for fire used in Rev. 21:8, In Greek it is the word pur which is Strong's number 4442. This is the same Greek word as is used 75 times in the New Testament. Here are 4 of the usages quoted below. Remember, these 4 usages below are the same Greek word that is used in Revelation 21:8 and should help our understanding of what really will go on in the Lake of fire. So it looks like when we gain more knowledge by seeing how the Greek words in Revelation 21:8 are used elsewhere in the New Testament, we realize that the lake of Fire, could have a cleansing affect on those who are in it. In addition to the discomfort and troubles they may experience. But then people today experience trouble and discomfort and hopefully can overcome at least some of it in their lifetime and hopefully learn and grow from the experience. So to sum things up the lake of Fire could be a lake of purification for those who are in it. Getting back to the 12 gates and 11 usages of this Greek word. Try reading the last two chapters of the book of Revelation and think about what is written. Then ask yourself the question, why would God use the word gates if no one was able to pass through the gates into the holy city, the new Jerusalem? If no one outside the gates was ever allowed to walk inside then why even have gates? Why not instead have a barb wire fence or a 12 foot wide brick wall. Of course, it does clearly say that no one that was an evil liar would be allowed to enter the gates to the new Jerusalem. But what if the cleansing affect of the lake of fire purified the sinful nature of the people outside the gates? Then would they be allowed to walk inside one of the 12 gates to the new Jerusalem? Something to think about and consider.

We think alike Steve and we also know we are on a learning curve. We learn new things everyday as long as we study and ask God for answers. Speaking of universalists, here is a link to a new web site that I authored in the last 2 years. Here is the first paragraph on the introductory home page. Here are some scriptures that I evaluate and consider. And I do approach this is a non-argumentative manner realizing that regarding the prophetic future, we know only in part. http://www.christian-universalism.info/

I agree Steve and also think the book of Job is fiction. However, in stating this I also do not think this discredits the book of Job in the least bit. In fact, I believe the book of Job is one of the main teachers of truth in the entire Old Testament. As an example, the book of Job is the only Old Testament book that I know of that states clearly the truth that the devil even exists. Because of this people often mixed up the work of God with the work of Satan. Other than the book of Job, it was only when Jesus Christ, the master teacher came to earth that this knowledge of Satan and his evil, lies, and deception was exposed clearly.

1 Cor 14:29 29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. NIV What Wordwolf recently wrote reminds me of the above scripture. Even prophets should be weighed to make sure that what they speak or write is the truth. And I looked up the Greek word that is used for "weighed" in the above scripture. I did this by examining the usages in the New Testament. This can also be translated judged and it is here in verse 29 in some other biblical versions. These judgements can sometimes be critical, but they should always be truthful and honest. The goal is so that the body of Christ can have and learn the pure and truthful word of God as our Lord Jesus and the holy spirit, which He gave, teaches us.

Very good questions to ask people that you see are under an unbiblical and spiritually harmful ruling class. I hope we can help them. Thanks Steve.

Below is a link to an article I wrote on this subject. I wrote this in 1988 soon after leaving the Way Ministry and revised it in 2002. Lots of people have read this. Everyone that I know of that has read this has liked it and gotton a lot of spiritual truth out of it. http://www.christianherald.info/lordship-of-jesus-christ-page-1.html

Eph 2:12-15 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, NIV And between who was that dividing wall of hostility that Jesus Christ has destroyed? Answer: Between God and men, women, boys and girls and maybe even pet dogs and cats. 1 Tim 2:5 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, NIV Without Jesus Christ there would be very little relationship between God and man if any. In this case I think we would be fearful. However, with Jesus Christ there is no fear in a negative sense. When Jesus was walking the earth was anyone afraid of him? Did he do anything to mankind to cause fear? He might have chewed a few arrogant people up and then spit them out in debates, but who did he harm? What sane person would be afraid of such a man? Jesus did frighten some demons or devil spirits though. I recall in a gospel record a legion of them whinning about where they did not want to be caste out to. The strong man that got the demons caste out of by Jesus sure felt better after Jesus did his thing. The demons may have feared Jesus, but I don't think the possessed man did. He needed His help and may have known this. But then some crazy people came up to Jesus after He healed the man and the bible does use the word fear at least in the King James Version for their thinking then. What a bunch of nuts that instead of thanking Jesus and patting him on the back and saying good job Jesus. They wanted him to leave. The possessed man in contrast wanted then to go with Jesus where ever he went. He even begged Jesus to let me go with you. But Jesus said to go home to your friends. Some very unusual scriptures. You can read about this in Mark 5:9-20.

Steve, the fundamental problem with both TWI and CES was pride and arrogance. They thought their doctrinal views were better than everyone elses by a wide margin. I warned CES about this in 2000 and this site still has a letter on it that I sent to the 3 CES leaders. Did you see this problem when you were with CES? Do you understand this? I even worked with someone from your state on trying to correct this fundamental CES problem. They did not take what I explained to them seriously so they ended up a few years later with an expensive legal cat fight which was a waste of time and money. And now that I think about it that might be why they have changed their church/ministry name. How can anyone learn anything new if they think they already know everything? How can they correct any doctrinal errors if they think everything they believe and teach is true?

Thanks for sharing your experiences with CES and Momentous Steve. Interesting and I am thinking this while I am shaking my head and laughing at some of their stupidity on this. I know John Lynn and I like him. I consider him a friend, but just because you have a friend does not mean you can't say anything that you know is stupid and harmful. I am referring to Momentous. I only had a brief look at it and it was irritating to me. This was due to the arrogance that I saw in it mixed in with them trying to force feed their way of thinking into yours. With their leaders in meetings as I understand it, trying to control everything and every thought. This is pure B.S. Look at 1 Corinthians 14 and you might see what I am talking about. Where it has a church gathering with doctrine shared by different people and other people evaluating what is shared and expressed to make sure that what is taught is the pure word of God. And this is not just one person or a few people. This is a number of people contributing with the goal of pure truth from God's word being expressed. Do they have that in Momentous or it is just a form of them trying to brain wash people with them wanting to control every thought and action? I really appreciate people who speak the truth and endeaver to learn it and teach it. And that do it with humility, love and service for God's people. As long as I see this I am going to be nice and loving. But when I see a form of brain washing being attempted. I don't want to say anything with anger now, but I can get angry. I don't think they would have enjoyed my presence at a Momentous meeting. I might have done some chewing and then a lot of spitting out. That reminds me. I forget what year this was, but John Lynn called me up at my home and asked me to take Momentous. I tried to be polite and told him no thank you and that I was not interested. However, he kept asking me to take Momentous and was sort of demanding about this. Of course, I kept teling him "no John. I am not going to take Momentous." I forget how many times he asked me and how many times I said no, but at some point I had to be very adament with him to get him to stop asking. Pretty silly of him to ask me to take this, but one good thing about this. The conversation made me not afraid to call John and ask him to do something that I thought would benefit him. A year later or perhaps the same year, while I was in New Jersey, visiting a friend there. I also talked with Wordwolf on the phone during my stay and went to a club with him in New York city. I did call John up and told him about his ex wife (Elizabeth) based on what she wrote that I read a copy of on Grease Spot Cafe. The copy of this can still be found and read on Grease Spot Cafe. I told John, based on what I had read that she was biblically very truthful. And that unlike the lady from CES who she had a disagreement with seemed humble. The CES leader lady, so called prophetess or so she wanted to be I met with two other people at a CES meeting in the San Jose, CA area. We agreed that she came off as an arrogant person that was not good in a Christian church in service to God's people. John Lynn's ex-wife I told John looked like to me to be just the opposite. Very truthful and knowledgeable and would at least be good at editing John's writings. I asked him why they broke up? I forget what all John told me and all that I told him, but I did talk John into giving her a second chance in their relationship though. He contacted her later. They went on a date, as I understand. Saw from her that what I was expressing to him about her was true. Apparently they started dating again and remarried. I have not talked to John or his wife for a few years now, but she did call me at my office while I was out, left a message and thanked me for speaking up for her. Does anyone know if they are still married? I hope they are doing good, but as for Momentous, that needs to be stuck in the garbage disposal with the motor on at full speed and a little water mixed in with it.

Thanks Steve. And you are correct about the researcher part. Yes, often in the bible, but also in other areas of knowledge. In fact, I just finished a programming course at a local community college. The Java programming language. Starting in about 3 weeks I am going to begin another community college course in PHP, another programming language specifically used for web sites. I love Jesus Christ and greatly appreciate Him enlightening US with truth. But I also want to be educated in other areas. And sometimes I use my web site technical study and education to help educate others with a knowledge of Jesus Christ. Time for me to get some sleep. Happy new year everyone.

Good posts Geisha and Wordwolf. They show more than just quoting scriptures and repeating phrases. They show good spiritual insight. They show a hunger for the truth and a love for God, Jesus Christ and all people. And they exhibit godly fruit of the spirit, especially humble thoughts and the desire to help others. I appreciate all the above. Doing biblical study should be more than just reading verses. Anyone can do that. Satan himself can quote scripture and he often does only to distort the concepts. This has occured since Adam and Eve and continues today. To counteract this it is good to have a hunger for the truth and to pray to God for an understanding of the truth. When ever I study something in the scriptures and don't understand it I pray and ask God for understanding. He always seems to fill me with truth and I greatly appreciate this. And here are addresses to two Christian educational web sites that I have authored to help others and express some of what I have learned. http://www.christianherald.info http://www.christian-universalism.info

Steve you are a good bible student. So is Wordwolf who I know personally. He is very sharp and a very good bible student and his posts here reflect that. One of his major points which should be obvious to everyone is that the word fear is not a Hebrew word. It is an English word from the century that the King James Version was translated from the Hebrew for the Old Testament or for a few usages the Greek in the New Testament. I am sure you are aware of the many usages of this word, but I am not sure that everyone here is. Hence, my prior post. Wordwolf started this thread and I am sure he has done a lot of good study on this as I am sure you have done also. You both may just express things a little differently. Nevertheless we are in the 21st century now and the word fear has more negative usages now as Wordwolf has clearly pointed out. Unless you are prepared to go over all Old Testament usages of this original Hebrew word, which I know is over 200 or perhaps over 300. (I don't have my bible software on this computer I am now using.) Then I think you should also relate this word "fear" as to how it is used today also in explaining this concept. If this concept was expressed today the word fear would not have been used as many times as it was in the 16th century with the King James Version. Languages and means of expression change. The truth may not change, but the words of expression do change.