Mark Sanguinetti

Anyone that honestly searches for truth would not want to study something that they do not see truth in. A study of something they see as not truthful would waste their time. And yes our time can have value and be productive. But I believe that all of humanity will eventually see the truth in Jesus Christ. Perhaps not in this lifetime, but in the resurrection of the unjust. And yes, this would be another topic of discussion. An actual biblical one in a doctrinal forum.

Waysider, for anyone to post on a Christian doctrinal forum when they admit to not believing any words of the bible is clearly a waste of their time. And for someone like me it could do just the opposite of what they are trying to promote, namely having a goal of less people reading the bible as a search for truth.

Thanks for posting that Wordwolf. No, I did not read that previously because not every post on any forum is useful and I have a very busy work schedule and do not have time for all posts here. Raf, for you to post on a doctrinal forum when you finally admit to not believing any words of the bible is clearly a waste of your time. And for someone like me it could do just the opposite of what you are trying to promote, namely having a goal of less people reading the bible in a search for truth. You can get truth and you can get lies and deception in anything you study. This just depends on the state or one's mind and their actual search for truth, which I have always had. However, for you to think that we can not get truth from reading the bible is deception. As an example of getting truth from reading the bible, here is a link to an article that someone that I know wrote. He is a very good bible teacher and very truthful in his interpretation. This is coming from myself who has a collegiate business degree, has a U.S. manufacturing business and is also a California licensed real estate broker. This shows the best understanding that I have ever seen from anything ever written on economics and what real wealth is in a society. And no, it is not the printing of money. It is from the actual production of goods and services. And this uses bible verses as a means of understanding this fundamental concept. Hence, using bible verses can result in deception, which it looks like you are promoting. However, bible verses can also be used to generate truth in our understanding. http://www.christianherald.info/biblical-money-chapter1.html And again Raf, if you want to reject even a truthful economic analysis because it uses bible verses, then perhaps you can pretend there are no bible verses as part of this while massaging your head.

Raf, do you even believe there is a God and that God is Spirit? Do you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus has a new spiritual body? The bible says Jesus is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for followers of Him. Another words, Jesus is our connection between God and man. Also Jesus wants to save all of mankind and not just a small percentage of the population. Jesus is all about love, mercy, grace and truth as I have been seeing. Do you see this?

Raf, do you at least see the spiritual truth in the writings of the apostle Paul? Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Raf, do you see any actual truth that you can learn from? Regardless of whether Adam was literal or figurative, one can still learn truth. Not physical or scientific, but spiritual.

Perhaps we can just think of the book of Genesis as figurative to teach spiritual truth and not literal. For example, was it a literal serpent or talking snake that talked to Eve in the garden of Eden? Do snakes actually talk to people? This is spiritual talk and not physical talk. Jesus Christ even got a voice in his ear from the deceiver which is the devil or one of his spirits. Again this represents spiritual truth that all mankind gets voices of truth and voices of lies and deceit. We just need to be able to learn from Jesus Christ and know the truth from the lies like Jesus did as described in Matthew 4:1-11.

Matthew 24 looks like it could be a good chapter of the bible to study on this subject. Also this looks like in harmony with scriptures that we have studied from 1 Thes. 4:13-18 and 1 Corin. 15:50-57. The same Greek word for trump or trumpet is used in all three books. Here are the three usages of trump or trumpet with the same Greek word, Matthew 24:31, 1 Corin. 15:52, 1 Thes. 4:16. It looks like describing the same one time resurrection event. 15: 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 New King James Version (NKJV) The Comfort of Christ’s Coming 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a] 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Matthew 24 New King James Version (NKJV) Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple 1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. The Great Tribulation 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. The Coming of the Son of Man 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Parable of the Fig Tree 32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. No One Knows the Day or Hour 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant 45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’[g] 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I have a full work day starting now and I will not be able to post again until tonight.

I was thinking today about the Old Testament believers, for example Moses, Daniel, Isaiah and others. When would they be resurrected from the dead to be with Jesus Christ? Would this be with the followers of Jesus Christ like we have today and have had since the writings of the Apostle Paul? Or would this be at another time or age? Then I found some very fundamentally written comments on the internet. This is something we have learned also. The new one body of Christ combining Jews and Gentiles. There is no separation now between Jew and Gentile. All are one in Christ Jesus and a number of scriptures verify this. Because of this unless we see a clearly written scripture telling us about an additional resurrection for the Old Testament saints, they could and would be in the same resurrection as the apostles and faithful believers today. The only clearly written scriptures on believers getting raised from the dead to live with Christ that I see now are 1 Thes. 4:13-18 and 1 Corin. Chapter 15. And in verse 55, we even read Paul partially quoting from the Old Testament. Hosea 13:14. If you see any other scriptures describing another resurrection other than of course the resurrection of the unjust, then post the scriptures or at least the chapter and verse. 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 New King James Version (NKJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. And here we see scriptures pertaining to the one body combining Jew and Gentile. Ephesians 3:1-7 New King James Version (NKJV) 1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. Romans 11:25-26 New King James Version (NKJV) 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[a] as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
 And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV) 12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. Ephesians 2:11-22 New King James Version (NKJV) 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Here we have the same word for church that is used in the church epistles and here it is directed to the Jewish people. Matthew 18:15-18 New King James Version (NKJV) 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV) 1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11New King James Version (NKJV) 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If we want to try to communicate something spiritual that we believe it is best to also quote from scriptures. Then we can compare what a person believes with the scriptures that are part of the learning process. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 is a chapter I recommend the study of. It indicates the first resurrection is Jesus Christ himself. Then the next resurrection is those who are his faithful believers. We see this in 1 Thes. 4:13-18. I believe in Acts this is called the resurrection of the just. Later we have the resurrection of the unjust. Here is 1 Corinthians chapter 15 which shows an order to the resurrections. In verse 22 it says all die and all shall be made alive, but each one in his own order. Jesus Christ resurrected and afterward those who are Christ's at his coming. Then the end comes which looks like the second resurrection or resurrection of the unjust. More scriptures quoted would be helpful, but this is a good start. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Acts 1:4-11 The Holy Spirit Promised 4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Jesus Ascends to Heaven 9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” New King James Version Below looks to me like Jesus coming back or returning in the same manner as his ascension into heaven above. I am sure that most people here see this similarly. The very good thing is that when we meet the Lord Jesus in the air, we get to always be with him. If Jesus starts his thousand year earthly kingdom soon thereafter, that we read in Revelation chapter 20 then we get to assist him. Maybe we will be shining shoes or cleaning feet. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 The Comfort of Christ’s Coming 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Revelation 20:4-10 Satan Bound 1,000 Years 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Satanic Rebellion Crushed 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Regarding Rev. 20:4-5. This will not literally occur with only people who have been beheaded part of the 1000 year reign of Christ. People die in different ways. And yes some people actually die of old age and during their entire life were truthful witnesses of Jesus Christ. I strongly believe God is just and regardless of how someone literally dies they too can be included in the 1000 year reign. Remember the writing of Paul in 1 Thes. 4:13-18. There it simply says the dead in Christ shall rise first then those who are still alive will also meet the Lord in the Air and both will after this forever be with the Lord. No, this obviously does not mean they will die again. I confirmed this with three bible commentaries and all three clearly agree that a literal interpretation of Rev. 20:4-5 regarding only those that have been beheaded being part of the 1000 year reign would contradict other more literal verses. What this figurative writing more literally means is that those beheaded or killed for the testimony of Jesus Christ will be given special honor for their work for our savior Jesus Christ. But then anyone that only wants to be part of the 1000 year reign to serve Jesus Christ would not care about special honor. They only want to do this because they love Jesus Christ and stand with him. Honestly, I think the person who wrote the book of Revelation in such a figurative and not literal manner should have been more of a student of the apostle Paul before he wrote his book. His writing style has literally resulted in many contradictory interpretations of this book. But then as I previously explained, perhaps his imagery writing style was to hide the message from people that he feared persecution from as many of the apostles and prophets were murdered and yes some NOT by literally beheading, but by being stoned, for example Stephen in Acts 7:54-60. Does that mean because Stephen was stoned to death and not beheaded that he too would not be part of the 1000 year reign with Christ, while some poor person from 20th century Africa who was beheaded by a muslim just because they would not publicly renounce their belief in Jesus Christ that he or she would get to be with Christ for the 1000 year period? I am for both being with Christ during the 1000 year Christ kingdom. And even for people who die of old age.

This is a simplified answer. The two beasts are against God and Jesus Christ. One is a political ruler. The other is a religious leader also called a false prophet. We may have already seen this a number of times historically whether it is when the Roman Catholic church was trying to gain religious political power in what is referred to historically as the dark ages or the Muslim religious sects as they have tried to do the same thing. And we have biblically seen this with the Jewish religion opposing Jesus Christ and using their religious deception to get the apostles killed and other followers of Jesus Christ. Even Paul was involved in this before he became a follower of Jesus Christ. What is obviously wicked and evil is when any religious group combines with a nation and literally uses military force to spread their religion and whenever this results in the death of people from other religions of faith, for example a true follower of Jesus Christ, this should be punished. If not now in this age, then in the future Lake of Fire. To try to spread a religion through military action so that it is dominant is wicked and evil. Regarding the thousand years from the book of Revelation chapter 20. The god of this world is very proficient at lying and deceit and deceives people many times. He often does this through political leaders who have the power. When Christ rules, him being wise and powerful he will have the devil the equivalent of symbolically chained up in prison so that he and his deceiving spirits cannot spread their lies and deceit during this age or period of time. Then things will improve greatly on earth. There will still be death during this thousand year period, but the common people will live longer and much better. After this thousand year period the devil gets loosed from prison and he and his lying spirits go out to deceive people and nations again. So much so that they convince people to try to murder the followers of the peaceful and loving Jesus Christ. From this they get what they are trying to give and from the scripture Revelation 20:9 indicates possibly massive deaths. From what I see here, God is simply trying to get people to see the good when following his loving son Jesus Christ in comparison to the bad following the devil and his lying spirits. I do not like lies and deceit and see it all the time. For example, see the below scriptures. To me this is the equivalent of the God of this world bribing political leaders to get them to follow his deceit and deception rather than following the example of Jesus Christ and actually trying to help our fellow man. Matthew 4:7-10 7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” 10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' New International Version (NIV)

RottieGrrrl, you show good biblical sense and a good sense of humor. And your doggie may have learned much from you. I will be able to post more biblical information later when I get my business work done. For now you and your doggie.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. NIV God has delegated all things pertaining to the church for the salvation of mankind under Jesus Christ his Son. We see in the above verses in Adam all die and in Christ all will be made alive. Since we have death for all of humanity, even Jesus Christ, we have in or through Christ all in the future made alive. This order of life after death is Christ first being raised from the dead. Then when He comes those who belong to him or the followers of Jesus Christ being raised from the dead. For an explanation of this see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Next we see all dominion, authority and power destroyed with Jesus Christ reigning as King or ruler until He has put all, and this includes even his enemies, under his feet or rulership. Then the last enemy to be destroyed is death. In the original Greek the word for destroyed (katargeoo) means "to render idle, unemployed, inoperative, to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish". Death cannot be destroyed by their only being no further death. Death can only be destroyed and put to an end with the addition of a general resurrection. When death is finally destroyed this means no more death for humanity with all being made alive. When Jesus Christ finally reaches his goal of all or everything under His rulership, then Jesus Christ will turn back this authority to God his Father, so that God will or "may be all in all".

Before any verse is quoted from the book of Revelation it is important to see that this book is written with figurative and not literal language. The following is one paragraph from a reference book that I learn from, the Nelson’s Bible Dictionary. Like its counterparts, the Book of Revelation depicts the end of the present age and the coming of God's future kingdom through symbols, images, and numbers. These symbols include an angel whose legs are pillars of fire, men who ride on horses while smiting the earth with plagues of destruction, and a fiery red dragon with seven heads and ten horns who crouches before a heavenly woman about to deliver a child. Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers The question is why was the book of Revelation written so vaguely with figurative imagery and not literal language? One reason is that books of the bible then were written in dangerous times under the Roman empire who were persecuting the church of God. A number of apostles may have even been killed, which for no offense is the equivalent of legal murder. This includes the apostle Paul a Roman citizen, who may have been beheaded by Roman authorities. Because of unjust things like this in future years historically we saw the Roman empire abolished, done away with and come to an end. Although an understanding of what many of these figurative symbols represented has been lost a truthful foundation of knowledge can still be understood. God is all powerful and eventually all the deception of the devil, the god of this age will be destroyed and cease to exist with Jesus Christ, who loves all of humanity and who I love reigning as king and Lord of all. The above is a quote from page 4 of a new article that I have written and posted on the web. Here is the address to the article covering the Greek word used for age. The Greek word for age I recommend being a student of the apostle Paul and his church epistles first and from this getting a biblical understanding foundation instead of trying to figure out the very figurative and not literal language of the book of Revelation. Perhaps the above will help people with some of his writings.

To love Jesus is to know Jesus. Do you love Jesus Christ? He is the most loving man in the history of the world and gave his life so that all of mankind could have salvation and eternal life through God his Father. Do you remember John 3:16? Certainly, Jesus Christ is part of that love of God as without his sacrifice this would not be possible. Incidentally, Jesus often taught us to pray to God His Father. This could be in the name of Jesus, God's Son as Jesus is the intercessor between God and mankind. Without Jesus Christ our relationship with God would be limited at best. Jesus as taught in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is the head of the body of believers. Without Jesus Christ we would have no or a limited spiritual brain. The brain or the ability to think is inside the head. Our knowledge of God without Jesus Christ, the head of the body of Christ would be greatly limited. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. These are fundamentals. To know things start from the ground up.

Your paper sounds truthful and good Steve. So far I would give you an "A". Here is another biblical reference for you on this subject dealing with Christian leadership in the church. http://www.christianherald.info/lordship-of-jesus-christ-page-1.html

O.K. I see your point and no I too don't believe God literally cursed the ground. Nor do I believe that God literally causes man to sin. However, God does allow this to happen and God does take some indirect responsibility for the sin nature of mankind. Surely you can see this through the sacrifice of the Son of God. So because of one or two incorrect scriptures you want to throw out an entire version of the bible. That is not necessary. Your link even said that a number of versions of the bible can be considered commentaries and I mentioned that even before I read it. Even though I too have written biblical commentaries and posted them on the internet to help educate people I am not going to belittle any version of the bible. Why do you want to do that? The people that worked on them have covered many verses to help us with our understanding. I appreciate their work and efforts regardless of whether or not I disagree with a few of their scriptural references or commentaries.

Wordwolf, why do you keep mentioning Genesis chapter 3? Can you see the obvious, that Genesis chapter 3 in any biblical version teaches us about the sin nature of man with the ultimate death for all of mankind? In contrast, can you see that Romans 8:19-22 in any biblical version that I have read, teaches us that we will be able to overcome our sin nature through Jesus Christ and that this will occur when God resurrects or raises his children from the dead and gives us new spiritual bodies patterned after Jesus Christ’s resurrected body? And Twinky, please say hi to and pet your cats for me. Meow!

Wordwolf, you need to look at what she has actually requested. Not a lengthy explanation, but a simplified explanation. Regarding, Romans 8:19, My simplified explanation is that we start off as a corrupted human race with death to follow. Yet we end, thanks to Jesus Christ, with a spiritual glorified body in the likeness of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. We owe this all to Him and his work. At this time in the future we will be revealed also as sons of God.

Sometimes I study the bible word for word using a Greek worded bible with the Strong's numbering system and since I don't actually know the Greek language I use a Greek lexicon. Other times I study with different bible versions. Other times I study with bible commentaries. All methods can be good and for our learning. It is good to have all three options depending on our state of mind at the time. Or what we have available for certain scriptures. Of course, I also always ask God for answers of truth in prayer and God teaches me all the time. Why are you relating Genesis Chapter 3 with Romans 8:20-21? If anything this relates to another writing of Paul, 1 Corinthians chapter 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. And in this bible version which can also be considered a bible commentary it says Romans 8:20 For on that day thorns and thistles, sin, death, and decay --the things that overcame the world against its will at God's command-will all disappear, and the world around us will share in the glorious freedom from sin which God's children enjoy. Surely you can see that this is in harmony with death destroyed or disappearing. They are just stated differently with different words. No one here speaks Greek that I know of. If we want to go to the original source we need to be able to speak biblical Greek otherwise we are getting the views of other people. Any of the options above for study should be O.K. But ask God for answers of truth in prayer. Truth needs to be spiritually discerned. This is fundamental as we see in Paul's writing 1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. As far as simply quoting the correct or your favorite version of the bible, the devil or a devil spirit can even do that and does this to Jesus Christ in Matthew chapter 4 or at least pretends to. We should see that quoting the bible alone is not satisfactory. We need to ask God and believe God for truth and be meek and humble to receive it. And I see now where it mentions thorns and thistles in Genesis 3. However, this is spiritually the exact opposite relating to Genesis chapter 3. In Genesis 3 we have the negativity that is represented by thorns and thistles with the death of man the final result. In Romans 8:20-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:26 the death of mankind disappears or is destroyed. Another words, then death is NO more.

I found this online, The Living Bible. It looks like this entire easy to read version of the bible. And say hi to your doggie for me. Woof woof. Good to work with people with good biblical sense, you ladies/girls and my friend originally from Noo Yawk, Wordwolf. Woof woof. The Living Bible

Below is a version of the bible that will help and simplify our understanding of these verses. It is the Living Bible Version, which is legitimate and good. I have included some of the verses before and after your requested verses for the immediate context. Romans 8:15-25 15 And so we should not be like cringing, fearful slaves, but we should behave like God's very own children, adopted into the bosom of his family, and calling to him, "Father, Father." 16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God's children. 17 And since we are his children, we will share his treasures-for all God gives to his Son Jesus is now ours too. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering. 18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. 19 For all creation is waiting patiently and hopefully for that future day when God will resurrect his children. 20 For on that day thorns and thistles, sin, death, and decay --the things that overcame the world against its will at God's command-will all disappear, and the world around us will share in the glorious freedom from sin which God's children enjoy. 22 For we know that even the things of nature, like animals and plants, suffer in sickness and death as they await this great event. 23 And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from pain and suffering. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children, including the new bodies he has promised us-bodies that will never be sick again and will never die. 24 We are saved by trusting. And trusting means looking forward to getting something we don't yet have-for a man who already has something doesn't need to hope and trust that he will get it. 25 But if we must keep trusting God for something that hasn't happened yet, it teaches us to wait patiently and confidently. The Living Bible

Very good biblical points by Wordwolf and also some interesting information from Steve Lortz about Victor Wierwille's errant non-biblical doctrines. You guys both get "A"s. Off the top of my head without quoting bible verses, I think we would have NO or very little relationship with God without the work of His Son Jesus Christ. I also think pertaining to the church today that God has delegated all things over to Jesus Christ his Son. Jesus Christ is the head with us being members doing a variety of things, but regarding the analogy of the church being like a human body as we see in 1 Corinthians chapter 14, what part of the body does all the thinking? Without our head Jesus Christ, who has our only spiritual brain, we might be spiritually dumber than door knobs. Pertaining to the work of the salvation of mankind with man's needed purification and with the putting of all things that oppose God under God. God, the Father has delegated this job and authority to Jesus Christ His Son. O.K. so now I am going to cheat and quote from a version of the bible, the New Kings James Version, 1 Corinthians chapter 15. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. Stated with some of my language. God has delegated all things pertaining to the church for the salvation of mankind under Jesus Christ his Son. When Jesus Christ finally reaches his goal of the salvation of all of mankind, then Jesus Christ will turn back this authority to God his Father, so that God will be all in all. Stated another way, when Jesus Christ accomplishes His goal of all being subject to Him or under His (Jesus Christ's) authority. Then Jesus Christ will turn His authority back to God His Father from which His authority came. With this everything will be under God's authority and everything that God is will be in all. With this we will have complete purification of all. One more point. Jesus Christ literally is the only Son of God by actual birth. The rest of us are sons of God only through adoption and a gift of the holy spirit.

Broken Arrow, your last two posts here were very good and showed very good biblical sense and logic. You get a grade of "A" from me on those two posts. And this is in complete harmony with the article that I wrote, "The Lordship of Jesus Christ: Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man".