Mark Sanguinetti

Raf, at least try to be truthful. In my recent post I did not address you at all. Below is the post again. And from this you call giving another poster a compliment, "bolstering" and with the stating of my views "bearing falsewitness against you". Again, at least try to be truthful. Now you are not.

Well then let me give another poster a compliment on their posts, without you feeling the need to mention this. Would it be O.K. if I gave you a compliment on one of your posts? Likely yes, but for a person that you don't agree with on a subject such as this, perhaps not. And here is my original not long post with one line of a compliment for another poster followed by a few lines of actual information. So what does Raf do? Does he focus on the actual information? Clearly not. Instead he only opposes the compliment that I give to another poster here.

There goes Raf again trying to divide and then conquer, which Jesus warned us about and spoke against. This right after I give another poster a compliment before I make a statement of my own. That tactic will not work for me and it should not work against anyone here. Often when TrustandObey makes a post here he does a good job of research before he makes his post.

Relating to what TrustandObey has written with clarity and good sense. Today we have landLORDS over their renters. And with our economy having a higher and higher difference between the rich and the poor, we also at times have homeless people, which may not be actual slavery, but then might be worse when your master or employer treated you well. In contrast, in the Old Testament I have read some scriptures that indicate all the families of Israel should be able to own their own property to live on. At least that was the way the nation of Israel began after the 40 years in the wilderness after leaving Egypt. Perhaps I will have time to look up scriptures showing this later, but lately I have been the equivalent of a worker bee in providing goods and services to customers.

Some good posts by Trust and Obey in him addressing this subject of slavery and morality. I guess other people don't want to look at my posts as they also pertain to slavery and morality. Yes, Trust and Obey is very polite. Sorry though I am not impressed with changing the subject and then trying to divide ones view points against another persons viewpoints. This is clearly what Raf is doing now. A very good example here of merely trying to divide. Raf brings up the point of some people thinking Jesus is God and believing in the trinity, and tries to place them in opposition to other people that see the 50 verses that says Jesus is the Son of God and the even more verses that list him as the Son of Man along with a number of other verses some of which I recently posted here. If anything with Jesus giving his life with death for mankind's salvation. Any association with God the Father shows that God is loving and morale and cares enough about mankind to give them salvation also. So now you want me to criticize the Nelson Bible Dictionary? No, I will not do that.

Raf, when it comes to the bible is ONLY here to try to divide and conquer. Nothing more! Sorry this won't work with me. This is a very good example of this. He takes a subject that he starts and then ignores his subject when he finds some doctrines taught that are not taught the same way that other people teach. This is a waste of time and my schedule is too busy for wasted time. Back to some screen printing. In the future I will write another biblical article, but certainly Raf would not be an editor of this because of his bias against the bible and its messages.

Raf, why do you constantly read things out of context? Here is the actual quote from this article. I hope you understand this. This is referring to Jesus' nature and not him being literally God. This article refers to Jesus being the Son of man and Son of God, but no mention of that from Raf. Yes, perhaps I should be one of their writers for the Nelson Bible Dictionary. If I had the time. Here is something that I wrote pertaining to 1 Corinthians chapter 15. This is what we will all receive in the future, which is the equivalent also of the nature of God in all of mankind. Trinitarians would have difficulty with their doctrinal bias with this. If Jesus is literally God now, this would mean we would all be literally God in the future. But no, after Jesus Christ meets his goal of all being under His Lordship then Jesus will turn back this Lordship to God his Father. Or as verse 28 points out, "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." Raf, I know you write well and quickly, but when you read at least try to read things in context.

Raf, you are getting off the subject which you started here. Namely this subject is the morality of Yahweh. Now, if you want us to sometimes get off the main subject, but not other times then this is also bias. I have used the Nelson Bible Dictionary for a number of years and in reading many biblical articles have rarely seen bias. Now, we might both see bias with this one study on Holy Spirit, which does mention Trinity, which I just now noticed. This is clearly written by a different writer than the Nelson bible study of Jesus Christ, which NEVER mentions trinity and is clearly more biblically written than this one that you have mentioned. So can you see this is also bias to mention something that is not written with complete biblical terminology, while not mentioning something that is written with biblical terminology? If you have a copy of this look up Jesus Christ in the Nelson Bible Dictionary and see this for yourself. No mention of trinity and from a biblical perspective is written with accuracy.

You just made me laugh, literally. You previously asked for a biblical perspective and I offered it. Now for a person that does not actually believe the bible has any real truth, for example possibly yourself, then a biblical perspective would be biased to them. From a biblical perspective there is the God of this world, Satan and God the father of Jesus Christ. Two different gods. Sorry, but God is not now preventing every evil that Satan promotes. Satan would need to get figuratively chained up for that. The bible says God will do this in the future, but not now. In the mean time I hope you can at least see that Jesus Christ did not promote slavery in his earthly life. Or as this biblical study points outs regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ. "But the implications of the gospel, especially the ethic of love, stand in opposition to slavery."

Below is some information from the Nelson Bible Dictionary which quotes many verses with accurate, truthful and readable understanding. Historically, slavery has primarily been prominent in cultures like Rome, which had a very high slave percentage of people. The United States even had slavery up through the 1860s when the civil war ended it. No, I will not blame slavery on God for nations like this. This was cultural mixed with greed, which we have in the sin nature of man as the end part of the below, from the Nelson Bible Dictionary explains. And hopefully there won't be any or here in this discussion. Just posted this to provide honest and unbias information. My heavy schedule would not allow any more than this from me. SLAVE, SLAVERY A person bound in servitude to another human being as an instrument of labor; one who has lost his liberty and has no rights. An ancient practice (Gen 9:25), slavery existed in several different forms in biblical times. Household or domestic slavery was its most common form; this is illustrated by HAGAR, who lived in the home of Abraham and Sarai (Gen 16:1) and by Jesus in His parables (Matt 13:24-30; 21:33-44). State slavery, another common form, is illustrated by the Israelites' experience under their Egyptian taskmasters (Ex 5:6-19; 13:3), and later by Solomon, who enslaved some of the Canaanite peoples (1 Kings 9:20-21). Temple slavery is illustrated by the practice of Moses and Joshua, who assigned certain people as slaves to the Levites for Temple service (Num 31:25-47; Josh 9:21-27). One could purchase slaves, as in the case of Joseph. He was sold into slavery by his brothers for 20 shekels of silver (Gen 37:28). Israelites could also buy foreign slaves (Lev 25:44). People captured in war frequently became slaves (Gen 14:21; Num 31:9). Occasionally those who wanted slaves might kidnap them, but this practice was forbidden by the Jewish law (Ex 21:16; 1 Tim 1:10). People could become slaves in several ways. The poor who were unable to pay their debts could offer themselves as slaves (Ex 21:2-6; Neh 5:1-5). A thief who could not repay what he had stolen could also be sold as a slave. Children born of slave parents became "house-born slaves" (Gen 15:3; 17:12-13). Sometimes children would be taken as slaves in payment for debts (2 Kings 4:1-7). Treatment of slaves generally depended on the character of the master (Gen 24; 39:1-6). But a set of regulations governed the treatment of domestic slaves (Ex 21; Deut 15:1). Repeatedly, Israel was instructed by the law not to rule over a fellow Israelite harshly (Lev 25:39; Deut 15:14). If a master beat a slave or harmed him, the law provided that the slave could go free (Ex 21:26-27); and the killing of a slave called for a penalty (Ex 21:20). Slaves were allowed to secure their freedom. Under the Jewish law, no Hebrew was to be the permanent slave of another Hebrew. After six years of service, a slave was to be released (Ex 21:2; Deut 15:12). In the Year of JUBILEE, no matter how long a slave had served, he was to be released (Lev 25:37-43). If a slave desired to continue with his master, he would have a mark made in the ear; this mark would signify that he had chosen to remain a slave (Ex 21:5-6). A slave could also buy his freedom, or another person could buy his freedom for him (Lev 25:47-49). Among the Romans in New Testament times, freedom for a slave could be arranged if ownership was transferred to a god. The slave could then receive his freedom in return for contracting his services. He would continue with his master, but now as a free man. The Bible contains warnings about the practice of slavery. The prophet Amos spoke woe to Gaza and Tyre for their practices of slave-trading entire populations (Amos 1:6-9). The Book of Revelation declares that disaster awaits those who sell slaves (Rev 18:13). As for Christians, the apostle Paul advised slaves to obey their masters (Eph 6:5; Col 3:22; Titus 2:9). Paul appealed to Philemon to receive back Onesimus, a runaway slave who was now a Christian and therefore a brother (Philem 16). Elsewhere Paul counseled believing slaves to seek freedom if they could (1 Cor 7:21). Since slave practices were part of the culture in biblical times, the Bible contains no direct call to abolish slavery. But the implications of the gospel, especially the ethic of love, stand in opposition to slavery. Both slave and free are called upon to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ. In Christ, social distinctions such as slavery no longer apply (Gal 3:28; Col 3:11); in Christ all are brothers and sisters. The excitement of such new relationships is expressed by Paul: "Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ" (Gal 4:7). In a spiritual sense, people apart from Christ are slaves to sin. To commit sin is to demonstrate that sin has control of one's life (John 8:34). Christ can set us free from this kind of slavery (John 8:36)-to be obedient to Christ and to do righteousness (Rom 6:16-18). (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

A very good and truthful post Twinky. Here is additional information on this from my commentary on 1 Corinthians chapter 12. I just now noticed that I previously posted this. If you want this deleted because it is a double post I can do that. And Twinky, please say hi to your cats for me.

Steve Lortz, I am glad that you are teaching people at the Anderson University School of Theology even though you are also a student there. Being both a student and a teacher is a good thing. We need to learn before we teach. And certainly you are much more knowledgeable regarding speaking in tongues as spiritual prayer and thanksgiving than other people there. With my judgement you get an "A".

Below is information on speaking in tongues from one of the biblical articles that I have written. Here is a link to the web site with this biblical article, which is the equivalent of a clearly written biblical commentary. 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 The biblical usage of speaking in tongues over the years has been very controversial among Christians and especially in various churches. Plenty of Christians do not understand what speaking in tongues is nor do they believe in it. Others believe in it, but sometimes do not speak in tongues at churches without a great deal of confusion. With this in mind we are going to do a short study of speaking in tongues purely from New Testament scriptures. First of all biblically the Greek word for “tongues” here in 14:2 is the Greek word “gloossa.” From the Thayer’s Greek to English lexicon it means literally the tongue as a member of our physical body, which is the organ of speech. Tongues (gloossa) can also represent a language used by a particular people in distinction from that of other nations. To see this let’s look at scriptures, which use this Greek word. Mark 7:32-35 32 Then they brought to Him (Jesus) one who was deaf and had an impediment in his speech, and they begged Him to put His hand on him. 33 And He (Jesus) took him aside from the multitude, and put His fingers in his ears, and He (Jesus) spat and touched his tongue (gloossa). 34 Then, looking up to heaven, He sighed, and said to him, "Ephphatha," that is, "Be opened." 35 Immediately his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue (gloossa) was loosed, and he spoke plainly. New Kings James Version Above we see clearly the usage of the word tongue (gloossa) as a body part used for speech. This should clearly tell us that tongues as inspired by the Holy Spirit can include our actual tongue body part with the speaker in control of his own. Next we will look at usages of tongues (gloossa) used for speech as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:3-4 3 And there appeared unto them cloven (diamerizoo) tongues (gloossa) like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues (gloossa), as the Spirit gave them utterance. King James Version Holy Ghost above from the King James Version is the same as Holy Spirit in other versions. In Acts 2 we have for the first time the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised to give to his followers. Here we see the Holy Spirit coming to Jesus’ twelve disciples looking like divided tongues of fire and sitting on each of them. The Greek word used for “cloven” is “diamerizoo.” “Diamerizoo” is normally translated divided and means to divide or cut in pieces. From this we see a vision or a painted picture spiritually of what occurs with the receiving of the Holy Spirit. We see the Holy Spirit being individually given, but we see every individual gift of Holy Spirit interconnected. In the vision it starts off as one tongue of fire, but then is divided separately among recipients. This is harmonious with Ephesians 2:18 which states “we have access to the Father by one Spirit”, and Ephesians 4:4 which states “There is one body and one Spirit…” With this they were each filled with the Holy Spirit and the first thing they did was speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance or as the Spirit enabled them. This was prophesied during Jesus’ earthly ministry for example, Matthew 3:11 quotes John the Baptist, “He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” It is interesting that at this time we had a festival known as Pentecost or the feast of harvest. According to Acts 2:5, we had Jews in Jerusalem at this festival from every nation with multiple languages spoken and understood. What was noticed by these people from other nations was that there were 12 Galileans speaking foreign languages, many of which they could not have known. People from Galilee were not known for their linguistic ability or knowledge. Some of these listed nations with languages are as follows: Acts 2:8-11 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians… King James Version Then continuing in verse 11, “we do hear them speak in our tongues (gloossa) the wonderful works of God.” Or stated with more detail, these people of many nations heard the disciples of Jesus Christ speak of the magnificent, excellent, splendid, and wonderful works or things done by God. And this was spoken in a language that the speakers themselves did not know and therefore did not understand. Yet it was all done with their own vocal ability. Next, we see that tongues is also words that “magnify God.” Acts 10:44-46 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God... New King James Version Here we see for the first time Gentiles also receiving the gift of Holy Spirit. Gentiles is a term used by Jewish people to refer to foreigners, or any other people who were not part of the Jewish race. And like the twelve original disciples, who were also Jesus’ apostles, the first thing the Gentiles did after receiving the Holy Spirit was speak in tongues and with this magnify God. Magnifying God is declaring or deeming as great or to esteem highly, to extol, to laud, to celebrate God’s greatness. To summarize from the scriptures we have covered including 1 Corinthians 13:1, the chapter before this and now 1 Corinthians 14:2 we see that tongues or speaking in tongues is the following: 1.From Mark 7:33-35, the physical human tongue as used for speech. 2.From Acts 2:4, speaking inspired words from the Holy Spirit. 3.From Acts 2:11, speaking the wonderful works of God. 4.From Acts 10:46, speaking words that magnify God or declare that God is great. 5.From 1 Corinthians 13:1, which also uses the word “gloossa,” speaking a language either of men or angels. 6.From 1 Corinthians 14:2, speaking mysteries or divine secrets directly to God and not man. As we saw in Acts 2, sometimes people can understand what is being spoken in tongues, but this is rare and could be considered miraculous. Speaking in tongues is speaking to God a hidden or secret thing as inspired by the Holy Spirit. The fact that these people of different nations heard the 12 apostles speak in their own native individual languages is phenomenon, and a reverse effect of that which occurred at the Tower of Babel when God confounded the languages. See Genesis chapter 11, verses 1-9. That everyone understood in their own different language in Acts chapter 2 does not normally happen, but apparently this phenomenon was a sign of the importance and significance of the receiving of the Holy Spirit as promised by God. If someone speaks in tongues or speaks in tongues with interpretation, it is possible for someone to know the language or tongue if it is a language of men that they know. However, the person speaking in tongues according to the scriptures will not know the language otherwise it wouldn’t be a tongue also described as a mystery or divine secret to the speaker. 1 Corinthians 14:3-5 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. New Kings James Version Here we see plainly the difference between speaking words of prophecy and speaking in tongues. Both are a manifestation or evidence of the Spirit of God given to followers of Jesus Christ (see 1 Corinthians 12:7-11). Words of prophecy are preferred in a church gathering because they are words spoken in the language of those people present. In contrast, speaking in tongues is not a preferred manifestation when spoken aloud in a church gathering unless the person that speaks in tongues interprets in the language of the people present the words that he has just spoken in tongues. This is referred to in 1 Corinthians 12:10 as the interpretation of tongues. Both are the work of the one and same Spirit of God, which has been given to individual followers of Jesus Christ. Remember Acts 2 and the vision of cloven tongues like as of fire, which came as a mass and then separated right before resting on individual disciples of Jesus Christ. This was a vision of the one Spirit, Ephesians 4:4. Just as we have one body with all followers of Jesus Christ a member, we have one Spirit, with all followers of Jesus Christ getting a portion, also called the gift of “Holy Spirit.” And the giver of this gift is God, the Father through His Son Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, New International Version Both prophecy and tongues are for edification. Speaking in tongues is for individual edification, which should be primarily spoken quietly to oneself and not spoken aloud in an assembly of believers unless the speaker offers words of interpretation. Later we will see that speaking in tongues is a form of prayer and is specifically called in 1 Corinthians 14:14-15, praying in the spirit. Paul wants everyone to speak in tongues in this manor according to verse 5. In contrast, in a church gathering, prophecy is of greater importance and should be done because it brings edification, exhortation and comfort to the people present. These are three related words as stated in verse 3. Stated in a similar way prophecy brings to the church a building up along with encouragement and comfort. 1 Corinthians 14:6-11 6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues (gloossa), what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue (gloossa) words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. New Kings James Version. Speaking in tongues is an important manifestation for followers of Jesus Christ. Personally, I have used it as spiritual prayer for a number of years now. I have also instructed others in this spiritual prayer and then led them also into speaking in tongues. See an example of this in Acts 19:6. However, as the previous section of scripture clearly states, if we speak in tongues out loud, words that no one understands, how will it benefit the listener? The answer is obvious. Unless we speak words that are understood, one can or would merely sound like a foreigner. If we speak in tongues out loud without the addition of words in our common language, for example revelation, prophesying or teaching, how shall it assist or be useful or advantageous to the listener? The answer is, it will not. It will only edify the speaker. How is that being of service to our fellow brothers and sister in Christ? Isn’t that why we as followers of Jesus Christ meet and get together, to serve and help one another? 1 Corinthians 14:12-14 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts (The word gifts was added. A better translation would be spiritual matters or things.), let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. 13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. New Kings James Version. Stated again, if we are zealous for spiritual matters or things, let’s focus that zeal on serving our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. And when it comes to speaking words in a church service let’s speak words to edify or build up the church. Therefore, anyone who speaks in a tongue in a regular church service should first pray that he may interpret. Then and only then should we speak in tongues and then we should follow this with the interpretation, in the language of the people present. We are able to speak in tongues and then immediately follow this with the interpretation of the tongue that we just spoke, through the power and ability of the Holy Spirit and through faith in God and prayer. Yes, prayer needs to be mixed with faith in God. So again, before we speak in tongues out loud in front of everyone at a church gathering. Let’s first pray and have faith that we will interpret the divine secrets and wonderful works of God given to us. Speaking in tongues is spiritual prayer and I do it and I like it, but in a church gathering let’s primarily speak fruitful words with our understanding. 1 Corinthians 14:15-16 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. New International Version Here the scriptures ask a fundamental question based on all the previous truthful and practical knowledge. “What shall I do?” The answer is to both pray in the spirit, which is speaking in tongues, and pray with our understanding. And when we speak in tongues, if we want, we can also do it to the tune of our favorite musician, musical group or melody. And of course, in a church service we can all also sing one of our favorite hymnals together in the language of the people present. Three of my all time favorites are “I’ve Found a Friend in Jesus, He’s Everything To Me”, “What a Friend We Have in Jesus” and “How great thou art.” 1 Corinthians 14:16-17 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright 1952 (2nd edition, 1971) by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved. Another obvious question with a simple answer. We may be giving thanks spiritually through speaking in tongues, but if no one listening to us knows what we are saying, then no one, but the speaker is edified. If that is the case we may as well just stay home and pray in our closet with the door shut (see Matthew 6:6). Therefore as this section of scripture has said and implied a number of times. If we speak in tongues without interpretation we should primarily do it silently to God in prayer and praise. The main point in this as we shall see is to not bring confusion to members of the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 14:18-19 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. King James Version A great summary written by Paul. Paul thanks God that he speaks in tongues, at this time, perhaps more than all the people of the church in Corinth. Nevertheless, in church Paul would rather speak out loud five words that will teach and edify others than ten thousand words in a tongue (gloossa) that is not known by the people that are present and listening to him.

From 1 Corinthians Chapter 14, the main mental analysis for the interpretation of tongues is to make sure it is in the language of the people present. And certainly if it is from the spirit of God it should include thanksgiving and praise to God.

It was a person telling me what to say or what not to say. When it comes to speaking in tongues with interpretation, I prefer speaking by the Holy Spirit.

Hi Waysider: The coordinators of the Way Ministry Excellor sessions were sometimes errant in their biblical understanding and application. That does not make the writings and teachings of the apostle Paul on this subject wrong or errant. I had a similar situation at an Excellor session in the 1970s. When I spoke in tongues and followed it with an interpretation the interpretation I spoke was a message of thanksgiving that related to an actual prayer to God. Right after I did this the errant and ignorant sessions coordinator complained about my interpretation and told me not to do this again. Guess what happened the next time I spoke with tongues with interpretation? It was even MORE of a thanksgiving to God that ended with a message similar to "And I God will provide you with the words that you are about to speak". And no, I did not predetermine my message before speaking it. I was just determined to do things to the best of my knowledge and understanding which I had previously studied biblically, while they were focused on their own doctrinal versions that were passed down in a hierarchy, from Wierwille and Way Ministry leadership downward.

The below titled "Tongues, Gift Of" is from the Nelson Bible Dictionary which has very well written and biblically accurate teachings of the bible. Tongues as we see in 1 Corinthians chapter 12:7-10 with scripture quoted after the below teaching is also referred to as a manifestation of the Spirit. Also available for understanding are commentaries that I have written on 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14. These are two chapters of the bible which most use the word "tongues" as a gift from God or manifestation of the Spirit of God as found in the Bible. From the New King James Version New Testament 14 of the 26 usages of the word "tongues" is found in one of these two chapters. 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 Thanks to Steve Lortz for starting this thread. I think Steve is very knowledgeable and has a very good understanding of the bible while also teaching it well. TONGUES, GIFT OF The Spirit-given ability to speak in languages not known to the speaker or in an ecstatic language that could not normally be understood by the speaker or the hearers. Apparently the only possibly direct reference in the Old Testament to speaking in another tongue or language is found in Isa 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people." This seems to be a reference to an invasion of the Assyrians. They apparently would speak in another language, one probably unknown to the people of Israel. The apostle Paul later applied this verse to speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:21). The apostle Peter considered the phenomenon of speaking in tongues that occurred on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Joel 2:28-32). In an appearance to His disciples after His resurrection, Jesus declared, "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues" (Mark 16:17). On the Day of Pentecost, the followers of Christ "were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4). The people assembled in Jerusalem for this feast came from various Roman provinces representing a variety of languages. They were astonished to hear the disciples speaking of God's works in their own languages. Some have suggested that the miracle was in the hearing rather than in the speaking. This explanation, however, would transfer the miraculous from the believing disciples to the multitude who may not have been believers. Tongues as a gift of the Spirit is especially prominent in 1 Cor 12 and 14. In 1 Cor 12 the phenomenon of tongues is listed with other gifts of the Spirit under the term gifts. As one of the several gifts given to believers as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, tongues is intended, with the other gifts, to be exercised for the building up of the church and the mutual profit of its members. In 1 Cor 13 the apostle Paul puts the gift of tongues in perspective by affirming that though we "speak with the tongues of men and of angels" (v. 1), if we do not have love, the gift of tongues has no value. In 1 Cor 14 Paul deals more specifically with the gift of tongues and its exercise in the church. In this chapter the tongue is not an intelligible language, for it cannot be understood by the listeners. Therefore, a parallel to the gift of tongues is the gift of interpretation. The gift of tongues was used as a means of worship, thanksgiving, and prayer. While exercising this gift, the individual addresses God not man; and the result is to edify himself and not the church (1 Cor 14:2,4). This gift is never intended for self-exaltation but for the praise and glorification of God. Paul does not prohibit speaking in tongues in a public service (14:39). But he seems to assign it to a lesser place than the gift of prophecy. Paul claims for himself the gift of tongues-speaking, but apparently he exercised this gift in private and not in public (14:18-19). The gift of tongues is to be exercised with restraint and in an orderly way. The regulations for its public use are simple and straightforward. The person who speaks in an unknown tongue is to pray that he may interpret (1 Cor 14:13). Or, someone else is to interpret what he says. Only two or three persons are to speak, with each having an interpretation of what he says. Each is also to speak in turn. If these criteria are not met, they are to remain silent (1 Cor 14:27-28). The gifts of speaking in tongues and their interpretation are to be Spiritinspired. Paul also points out that tongues are a sign to unbelievers. If these guidelines are not observed, unbelievers who are present will conclude that the people of the church are out of their minds. The phenomenon of speaking in tongues described in the New Testament is not some psychological arousal of human emotions that results in strange sounds. This is a genuine work of the Holy Sp (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. NKJV

Clearly at least to me, the scripture of John 8:3-11 is in agreement with the words and actions of Jesus Christ. My recent quote from the Nelson Bible Dictionary shows this to people of faith. Regarding the controversy of these verses being extracted from the gospel of John, here is a reason they may have been removed, but later placed back in the gospel of John.

Here is a link to show that Raf's views are contrary to the many biblical interpreters. This link shows 50 English versions of the bible and also many versions of the bible written in other languages. To see any of these versions of the bible and to verify if John 8:3-11 is written in these versions simply go to this page and with John 8:3-11 typed at the top of this web page click the down arrow to the right and choose any of the many versions of the bible that you want to see. Then to see the version and these verses click the SEARCH button John 8:3-11 Here is scriptural information showing that Jesus' words in John 8:3-11 are in harmony with Jesus Christ's other teachings and acts of love. Also that the Old Testament law was NOT being truthfully applied by the rabbis, scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day and other times in the history of the Jewish nation and that these interpretations sometimes obscured the original purpose of the commandments. From the Nelson Bible Dictionary, which also publishes the New King James Version.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/execution/readings/history.html Above is a link providing information about the history of the death penalty among some of the nations. Yes, the nation of Israel also had the death penalty. However, Jesus Christ, God's Son saw that his nation was using it, but was not applying the Old Testament Law pertaining to the death penalty with justice. One of Jesus Christ's famous words regarding Jews that wanted to use the death penalty was recorded in John 8:3-11. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Then why don't you actually quote from what you call the Pentateuch? Again the nation of Israel started off with laws much less strict than in other nations. Exodus 18:13-27 clearly shows this with Judges deciding on individual conflicts. And this was before the Law of Exodus Chapter 20 and following was written. Sorry if you are confused with your 3rd grade math. The number 18 in Exodus is before the number 20 also in Exodus. :confused:/> Exodus chapter 18 24 So Moses heeded the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said. 25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people: rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. 26 So they judged the people at all times; the hard cases they brought to Moses, but they judged every small case themselves. MOD EDIT: Off topic content deleted.

All I am doing now is a short evaluation of God's Laws. However, if you want to actually read a bible you might see that God did not have strict laws when he started the nation of Israel. Instead they originally had a system of judges. It was only after the demand of the people of the nation that a King was set-up with the people wanting to copy other cultures and this would of course include some of the strict laws of death. Without an analysis of the actual Old Testament Law and seeing if this was actually applied or carried out is the equivalent of accusing judges of the murder of someone they have never seen or met. It is like accusing the judge of murdering a person that was murdered by someone they have on trail. Mod edit: off topic content deleted.

Off topic content deleted. You want to imply that Yahweh is not moral. How does God show he is moral or is not moral if it is not through the Old Testament Law or the acts or words of Jesus Christ His Son who always did the will of God His Father?

I admit that the death penalty of this day and age was very harsh and I am sure that other cultures of this day were equally harsh. However, some of the Old Testament Law is more favorable and less harsh to the population than the laws of nation's today. Here is an example of this from Exodus 22:25-27. 25 “If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest. 26 If you ever take your neighbor’s garment as a pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down. 27 For that is his only covering, it is his garment for his skin. What will he sleep in? And it will be that when he cries to Me, I will hear, for I am gracious. In contrast today for profit companies are legally allowed to pay very high interest rates on credit cards. This would have been outlawed under the Old Testament law. I hope you can see that this is good and favorable to people who need financial help the most.

No, I did not say that the Old Testament law was not God's Law. Instead I said Jesus Christ IMPROVES God's Law. And in the future when all of humanity is under Jesus Christ he will make it perfect for humanity and make all humanity perfect and under His authority. Then he will turn all back to God his Father so that God will be "all in all". For this read 1 Corinthians chapter 15. And you were in part the one that was first mentioning the Jewish leaders of the first century not following the Old Testament law with your mentioning of Stoning or as you called it "surround him and throw heavy rocks". No, often when they stoned people or wanted to stone people they were NOT following the Old Testament Law. Jesus Christ corrected them on this a number of times. And my teacher the apostle Paul, who had a great knowledge of the Old Testament often relates the Old Testament to the New Testament to help our understanding.