Charity

Thank you OldSkool, I am blessed by your words. I'm sitting here thinking about the feelings I've had over the past few days. I mentioned joy earlier. Another one is feeling alive (which makes sense because everything about God, Jesus and the Word is life giving). You know, when I go on my walks, I talk to God about the things I'm learning and sharing on GSC and these new, insightful and energizing ideas come into my mind . This has to be God talking to me and I love it . Alright, enough of this mushy talk, but it's just so intriguing. Take care, Darlene

I take it Rosalie Rivenbark was not a charismatic kind of person - maybe more on the boring side , but the ministry was just as controlling under her leadership. I questioned in my post whether that image of I AM THE WAY showing right above vp's head when teaching at the podium was a subliminal message to the believers. This may have been me leaning a bit toward a conspiracy theory since there are no facts to attest to it being the case. I'll do my penance later ( ). However, the deal of dismissing all members of the corps to shock them and then providing a conditional way back in (like a carrot on a stick) was a conspiracy because both vp and lcm secretly discussed it and agreed to do it. That was a big !

Interesting that there was also a tree of life in the Garden of Eden. Rev says that the tree of life yielded her fruit every month which under our calendar means 12 times a year (as in 12 tribes and 12 fruits). Then again, verse 5 says, "there will be no more night, and they will not need any light from a lamp, nor light from the sun," so what would a "month" be? The tree of life will be on the new earth where God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, nor will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more; the former things have passed away,” so what does the healing of the nations mean and how do we know that the nations are Gentiles only?

Am I understanding this correctly? It’s NOT being passive – as if it’s separate from you – you don’t go limp and switch on God – like sitting in a car, turning on the ignition key to use God to get somewhere (in other words, you don’t sit and wait for God to do all the work for you) “the Holy Spirit’s ordinary way of working in us is through our own mind and will.” by causing us to see reasons (how? by speaking to our minds?) (is this so our will becomes His will?) which drive us to act.” We’re being mindful. (aware that God is working in us?) Our rational selfhood is strengthened instead of destroyed. (because it's a 2-way relationship unlike vp’s concept of the ideal believer being servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines.)

Thank you - you're the best! Did you use "insert image from URL" or "choose files."

There's so much wisdom in what you shared both in being a gardener (even an amateur one like me) and in being a Christian. I'm beginning to think it'd be wise to print a lot of these posts so it'll be handy for me to read them over again. I love being around nature or even just looking at pictures or videos of it. There are times when I doubt the existence of God and it's always thinking of His creation that brings me back. There is a video called "Creation Calls" by Brian Doerksen (4:33 version). (It's not allowing me to insert the file I think because it's too large.) While he sings the song, it shows one filmed clip after another of spectacular examples of nature in action (different animals and plants, oceans, waterfalls, forests etc.)

The heaviness I felt in my heart last week when I wanted to have every memory of my time in twi swallowed up by a dark hole someway in a galaxy far, far away has lifted. The beginning of a new spiritual relationship with God and Jesus feels more real to me now. Without twi telling me what I need do and think as a believer in their ministry, there's now the sense of a freedom and even joy. You know what It's like when you spend a long evening with a large group of people in your house and then once they all leave, you can finally get to be alone with the one (or ones) who mean the most in your life. It's like that. The Way has left the building! Still being active both on GSC and with reading Undertow, I can better handle references to the twi created with their practices and doctrine because I can now contrast them with what's happening in my life now. Thanks again for all your help and support.

I saw a picture of vp (courtesy of a Toledo magazine) for the first time in Charlene's book "Undertow." If you haven't seen it, this is what it looks like. On page 91, vp is at a podium with his open Bible so he's obviously teaching. Behind him are the words , I AM THE WAY in large letters at the top and beneath it is an outline of an open book. You can't see much of this part because vp and the podium are covering it up, but twi followers would know what was written there. In smaller letters it would have said THE WORD OF GOD on the left and THE WILL OF GOD on the right (with a little "is" somewhere in the middle). This obviously was a slogan invented by vp and was repeated by believers everywhere. (In the beginning of the first session of the class, vp proclaims this dogma in full: "The first and most basic key for abundant living is that the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God.") So here's what jumped out at me from the picture. Directly over vp's head are the words I AM THE WAY. It doesn't have "Jesus says" above this and if the Bible verse John 14:6 is shown on the bottom, you can't see it. Back then, I would have just thought that the words, of course, referred to what Jesus said, but to me now, seeing this image and knowing about the absent Christ, I quickly connected the statement I AM THE WAY to vp himself. Would I have made that connection if someone else was teaching at that podium - no. But anyone else was not vp - believed to be the "man of God for our day and time." Did twi plan it to look this way? Was it supposed to be a subliminal message to the believers? Who knows.

Very interesting. How were they preserved?

God obviously was protecting His Word by way of all those who moved it along. I wonder if anything else dating so far back has been preserved to this day.

You explain things quite well Oldskool. Did you enjoy teaching the Word while in the ministry?

I like your description of the new birth being the incorruptible seed and what such a seed needs in order to grow. I went for a walk a while ago and I was thinking more about some of the things I had posted. Then, I read your reply after I got back. What you said about the fruit of the spirit being traced back to the seed is along the line of what I was thinking during my walk. I had written that anyone, believer or not, could be those things that are included in the list of the fruit of the spirit: loving, peaceful, patient, kind, etc. Then it became clearer to me what the difference is between a believer doing them and a non-Christian doing them. It goes back to the seed being the new birth (aka, gift of holy spirit, God's divine nature, new creation, etc.) Non-Christian can experience and give love, but only Christians can experience and give God's love because it's in the seed of the new birth. It's like this for each of the fruits of the spirit. Only Christians can experience the peace that passes all understanding or the joy that comes from rejoicing in the Lord. Because the fruit comes by way of the spirit, each one is experienced in a deeper, greater and spiritual sense for the Christian. It's all such great stuff!

Your first sentence made me think of what it would have been like to be a Jew living during the time of Jesus' ministry - to hear him teach and see the miracles he did and be there for his resurrection and ascension into heaven. Yet many of the Jews stopped following Jesus him because they couldn't accept some of the things he said like in John 6:53-66, while those who were expecting Jesus to literally become their king gave up on him when they saw him crucified. I do not know anything about the history of the Jews or about the history of how the Bible came to be, but I'd like to learn. I'll add them to my bucket list.

I was looking at Romans 7 yesterday. It covers what you wrote above as well as the choice between living by the law which held people captive (for us, the law would have been all of twi's rules and expectations) and serving in the newness of the spirit. Reading it again now, I'm still trying to understand the last verse where it says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God." I finally clicked over to read chapter 8 (like you also recommended) and WOW - there's a LOT in there related to this verse. It's been a while since I've read this chapter - I'll look at it more closely tomorrow. So cool .

You wrote (the underlining is mine): "At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them." This is so loving and inspiring in sharp contrast to the "in-your-face" and condemning reproof that was given in twi or the "personal prophecy" horror show that some ex-way followers began to practice in an off-shoot ministry. You wrote: "For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it." A peaceful "knowing" may well be the key when discerning if what you're hearing is really from God. There's nothing wrong with being excited about learning the Bible or having fellowship with others who are excited about God, His Word and Jesus. But as I read Charlene's book, "Undertow" and look back to the time I became involved with twi, it was not "a peaceful knowing." It was more of a "hyped-up knowing" or the "adrenaline-rush kind of knowing" from hearing about the "man of God," the "biblical research and teaching ministry," the "class etc." The teachings were great (based on what little I knew of the Bible), but they could also have been called the "opening act" with the main attraction being "way stuff" that came after (including being shown the "incredible" green card." It is important to listen for and hear that quiet still voice from God.

You made many good points. Thank you. I was thinking of the pedestal thing with twi - it's the word, the word and nothing but the word. That's why I said I still believed the Bible is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ. I was going to write "the" important way, but I'm learning there are other ways that are important as well. I what you said about love. It's the whole 1 Cor 13's "but have not love" truth. Reading the book of Acts is top of my to-do list especially in the context of what the Jews knew at the time before apostles arrived to teach them or before they had their turn of reading the epistles. And those poor Gentiles didn't even have the knowledge of the OT.

Honestly OldSkool, I looked for your original post before I sent the one above asking you to resend it, but I didn't see it. I thing it's the scrolling up and down that throws me off. Anyway, I have found your original post!

OMG - I was copying and pasting some of the words you used up above and I somehow messed up your post. Please resend it to me.

How do we manifest that new nature? Is it only through the renewed mind which we are responsible for doing? How does God working in us (as in present tense) fit into this? Phil 2:13

I agree with "through His Word" and I'm glad you share it. Now I know that the beliefs of twi, that the Bible (as vp taught it) was the "inherent accuracy of God's Word" and that it "fits together like a hand in a glove," are just not possible. His proclamation that he taught the Word as it hadn't been taught since the apostles of the first century is also impossible. All of these states are false. So what we're left with are the different versions of the Bible which I still believe is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ. A discussion of spiritual matters using critical thinking and done with respect I think is possible on GSC.

Chockfull said, "The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance. Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there." This is so very funny - I'm still laughing because I can still picture it as you described it. Thanks for sharing it . In twi, bearing fruit of the spirit is what happens when you manifest the 9 manifestations of the spirit of which SIT was foundational. In my experience, however, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self-control did not just spring up just because I SIT in my head. So living brings about bearing. Makes a lot of sense since living a godly life includes doing the fruit of the spirit (be loving, good, kind, etc.). So you already have the fruit before bearing more of it. This brings to mind (using your plant life cycle), is that doing the fruit is like planting the seed and since seed can only produce after its own kind (one apple seed grows into an apple tree which produces a lot of apples), then doing love will produce more love in us. This is true for anyone, believer or non-believer. My question then is how does the phrase "fruit of the spirit" fit in? It seems to have some connection to the spirit we receive when we're born again.

It's like that old comforting statement when something goes bad, "don't worry, one day you'll look back on this and laugh."

Okay, I get it now. Forget what I wrote earlier about how better it was that martindale did this with the 6th corps instead of having a meltdown and yelling at everyone to get the heck out.

I'm hoping to have a discussion about how God works in our lives. There are so many verses that tell believers what to do such as walk in love and renew your mind. My foundation for living a Christian life began with and for 12 years was based on twi's doctrine and practices. I remember the ministry's phrase that said to "practice the presence of God," but I pretty much took that to mean I was to think about God instead of worldly things which brought me back to something I was to do. I remember hearing, "you do your part and God will do His part. What does that even mean. I know now that it has to do with having a two-way relationship with God and Christ. It wasn't easy, however, for this to happen in twi because you were so busy doing their work of the ministry, (hold fellowships, witness, run classes, go to leaders about everything) that my relationship with them was way more established than my relationship with God or with Jesus, who by the way, was absent. So when I read Phil 2:12,13 which says I am to work out my own salvation for it is God who is working in you both to want to do, and to do, his good pleasure, I wondered what did this all entail and how does He do it. I'm especially thinking about experiencing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) and living with the power of God in our lives.

It might have done the trick concerning his son. I'm pretty sure the son had grown up in twi but he did this huge self-destructive rebellion later on in life. He's now a senior pastor at the church his ex-twi-leader-father started and teaches the same you-can-lose-your-salvation doctrine.