Charity

Chockfull said, "The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance. Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there." This is so very funny - I'm still laughing because I can still picture it as you described it. Thanks for sharing it . In twi, bearing fruit of the spirit is what happens when you manifest the 9 manifestations of the spirit of which SIT was foundational. In my experience, however, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self-control did not just spring up just because I SIT in my head. So living brings about bearing. Makes a lot of sense since living a godly life includes doing the fruit of the spirit (be loving, good, kind, etc.). So you already have the fruit before bearing more of it. This brings to mind (using your plant life cycle), is that doing the fruit is like planting the seed and since seed can only produce after its own kind (one apple seed grows into an apple tree which produces a lot of apples), then doing love will produce more love in us. This is true for anyone, believer or non-believer. My question then is how does the phrase "fruit of the spirit" fit in? It seems to have some connection to the spirit we receive when we're born again.

It's like that old comforting statement when something goes bad, "don't worry, one day you'll look back on this and laugh."

Okay, I get it now. Forget what I wrote earlier about how better it was that martindale did this with the 6th corps instead of having a meltdown and yelling at everyone to get the heck out.

I'm hoping to have a discussion about how God works in our lives. There are so many verses that tell believers what to do such as walk in love and renew your mind. My foundation for living a Christian life began with and for 12 years was based on twi's doctrine and practices. I remember the ministry's phrase that said to "practice the presence of God," but I pretty much took that to mean I was to think about God instead of worldly things which brought me back to something I was to do. I remember hearing, "you do your part and God will do His part. What does that even mean. I know now that it has to do with having a two-way relationship with God and Christ. It wasn't easy, however, for this to happen in twi because you were so busy doing their work of the ministry, (hold fellowships, witness, run classes, go to leaders about everything) that my relationship with them was way more established than my relationship with God or with Jesus, who by the way, was absent. So when I read Phil 2:12,13 which says I am to work out my own salvation for it is God who is working in you both to want to do, and to do, his good pleasure, I wondered what did this all entail and how does He do it. I'm especially thinking about experiencing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) and living with the power of God in our lives.

It might have done the trick concerning his son. I'm pretty sure the son had grown up in twi but he did this huge self-destructive rebellion later on in life. He's now a senior pastor at the church his ex-twi-leader-father started and teaches the same you-can-lose-your-salvation doctrine.

I knew someone who was in the 6th corps and he must have re-committed himself because I'm pretty sure he was eventually ordained. I hope lcm calmly discussed with you his reason(s) for dismissing you. The way he handled it though (dismissing people one on one in his office) does seem contrary to the anger he was known to show. If it was going to be done, I'm glad he did it that way.

Thanks for your whole post OldSkool. It was nice of you to let me know it was coming after you got home from work. Concerning the above portion of it, I have questions around the renewing your mind which I'd like to bring up at another time. I do want to be closer to Jesus and GSC is helping big time with this. About the offshoots, sorry, but I've already been there and done that with 3 of them (Living Hope, The Living Truth and Spirit and Truth). One of them now teaches we are no longer saved if we make the decision to deny our faith in Christ and walk away from God. Their statement of belief says, "Faith implies obedience (James 2:14-26). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must obey. We are required to maintain faith unto the end (Hebrews 3; 6; 10) in order to enter the Kingdom." In other words, we are required to maintain obedience unto the end..." One shared some "political" views in an interview about his ministry which I thought was wrong for a minister to do (imo). About another one, I find their REV bible useful at times so I refer to it along with other versions. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” Great verse. It would be so helpful to know, understand and believe this verse before getting swept up and pulled under by twi's early love bombing and indoctrination into pfal.

Morning T-Bone, Thank you very much for all you wrote (and the others as well). I'll take you up on the above advice. My heart still feels heavy, so it looks like it's going to take some time to work through all this. I will still reply on other issues of topic as I still enjoy reading the posts.

You guys are more fun than a barrel of monkeys!

Yeah, I could never get very far with that. Amazing though how low some people could go.

I hope he did it "in private" and without speaking lies or pushing fear when he told others in the corps about why so many were no longer in the program.

Obsession with having power, pride (the need to have an adoring following) or a desire to have grads fellowship together so they could become rooted and grounded (or indoctrinated) in what he taught in pfal, could have been other reasons for wanting loyalty. I don't know if vp gave himself the title of "the man of God for all times" (not sure if the "for all times" are the exact words), but he certainly didn't stop people from saying and believing it. I can see how your decision on how to help people would bring you peace. It makes me peaceful when reading about it.

Cute post T-Bone. Normally I your sense of humor. I wrote a little while back about how your post on page 18 cracked me up. I was just a little slow on the uptake on the poster girl joke - actually, I think a snail would have been faster at getting it. love and peace back to you Charity A merry heart is good medicine

Quick comment. Limbo sounds better than purgatory. I've heard that the need for baby baptism because of "the original sin" was to keep people in the Roman Catholic church.

Thank you T-Bone for your godly love and for connecting with me. I'll post you some thoughts tomorrow as the Sandman has arrived. Sleep tight everyone.

Love your first line Chockfull (applies to me as well). I did get turned on to reading the Bible during those years, and I often did feel close to God. It gave me the opportunity to teach children's fellowship which inspired my later choice to get a university degree and go to teacher's college. It's just that their way of entrapping people and keeping us dependent on them was through their lie of being the only "true" church (ecclesia), so while I was enjoying some benefits, I was also thinking evil of other Christians and not as close to my family as I could have been. It just feels all wrong to me now. I'll have to have a heart-to-heart talk with big Daddy God and cool brother Jesus about it. Prov 16:18,19 speaks of my prideful self-righteousness for being in twi. 18Pride goes before disaster, and a puffed up spirit before stumbling. 19Better to be humble in spirit with the poor than to share the plunder with the proud.

I've started to read Paul's greetings and prayers in the first few verses of his epistles. This one is from 2 Corinthians: 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the holy ones who are in the whole province of Achaia: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we are able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Thanks WW for sharing your truth about going in and later coming out of twi. My honeymoon stage with the ministry before going WOW was not that long – maybe 8 months. During that time, good things did happen like: (some of which were probably common to the honeymoon period of other people) - my first fellowship blew me away in comparison to any church experience I had known before (RC, Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic RC) - the first time I heard about our righteous standing in Christ before God after years of sin-consciousness - taking the class with loving wow’s there each night and speaking in tongues at the end (I wrote about this previously) - being only 18 and having so much fun together (going dancing at a bar, playing silly games at fellowship like “Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar,” having potlucks…) - taught for my first time at fellowship about what carrying the cross by Jesus meant for us spiritually (for someone who since being a child felt most comfortable going unnoticed by others, I actually felt radiant the whole time because it was about God and Jesus) - dating a wow ambassador who played the guitar and sang songs to me like “Please Come to Boston” and “Sunshine on my Shoulders,” was very funny, a great teacher and most of all, treating me with respect - going to my first Rock of Ages I know I’ll still remember those times now and again but not with rose colored glasses on any more. That time was built upon this huge sand dune. Once I went wow, the reality of what twi was all about began to show and over the years, the wind blew all the particles of sand away and great was the fall. That’s why, for me personally, I prefer to see all those years as lost, fallen into some black hole in the galaxy.

I know I've let go of a lot of stuff over the years but this is letting go of everything, even of the honeymoon stage from my first fellowship to going on the field. The hardest part is letting go of my belief that God led me to that first fellowship because I so needed deliverance and had thought I'd found it. Now I realize God would not have led me to a group where top leadership was doing the one thing that I wanted to be rescued from when I joined that group. I wonder what God's real plan was back then for me to find Him, his son and true freedom. The good news is now Jesus can show me which way to go with me knowing not to expect the trappings of a "perfect doctrine and perfect people."

Hoping you can connect with me. I woke up at 3:30 this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep. I began to work on a jigsaw puzzle online and then it all became overwhelming to me. It’s like the opposite of seeing the light because there’s nothing joyful about it. It’s more like seeing the darkness and it hurts. I’ve just been letting the tears flow. Between reading over for the past couple of weeks all your horrendous experiences in the Corp and within the ministry overall, as well as recalling what went on in my own life during that time and then on top of this, I began reading “Undertow” yesterday, the rose colored glasses I’ve obviously still been wearing about certain aspects of twi are coming off and it feels so, so sad. Even the doctrine I’ve been holding onto as being accurate has gone up in smoke. I think I'm heading into the last stage of grieving - acceptance. Over the past couple of hours, I‘ve been chucking out every memory that came to me - just wanting to obliterate the whole existence of twi from my mind. There are feelings of anger and disgust about what a total waste of my life it was. My children are the only saving grace in all of it. My youngest was born while I was in the ministry and when I left 1986, they were 3, 6 and 9. The joy they gave me just by being kids, I’ll never forget. Starting to calm down now as I edit my words so they make some sense. I’m feeling exhausted, both physically and mentally. You all seem to have survived this stage so I know there’s light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks for your reply chockfull.

Hi T-Bone, I was editing my last post to you when you sent your last two posts to me. I do get it now, not the noob thing, but what you said earlier and it's sweet of you to want me to feel more comfortable and welcomed.

No, except your attempt at being funny was about me, hence my question asking if there was something I should know. I'm picky and often too serious about the "details" in almost everything I do (housework, writing report cards, learning about things) - it's a blessing and a curse. I could ask for more details about your comment "just playing off your post of not being sure what was meant," but I won't for 2 reasons: I've already spent enough time today going over the details in Chockfull and my posts in order to get things right between us; and I need to be more lighthearted about things. I appreciate all of you

Hi T-Bone, is this something I should know about?