Charity

What is "Irish Eyes Internet" on the "Donate" page?

But sanctification is not a reward - it's what we received from God when we were born again as stated in 1 Cor 1:30, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" So if a Christian is still born again when he/she leaves TWI, then he/she would still be sanctified. And if he/she is still sanctified, then 1 Cor 7:14 would still apply. Right?

There has been so much great stuff to think about from today's posts but I must admit, I'm fading away (getting sleepy). Apparently I posted the above without a reply from me underneath. Well thanks to a couple of you, I knew how to edit it in order to add my two cents. Okay, I think I'm getting it - the title of each "administration" is man made and they are nowhere to be found in the Bible. So what's written in Revelations is simply what's going to happen in the future. It doesn't need the title of the "Revelation Administration." Likewise, the Gospels are about the life of Jesus and does not need to be called the "Christ Administration." If you stop referring to administrations, you can then get rid of all the man-made teaching that goes along with explaining them. If I've got this right, it's not a problem letting that doctrine go. I forgot to include it in the quote above, but I love your line about Jesus not keeping it all to himself when the end comes. Reminds me of Raffi's "Sharing Song" that my students liked to sing. It beings with "It's mine but you can have some, with you I'd like to share it..." only in the above case, Jesus would sing to God, "It's mine and you can't have none of it." Too funny.

So they're basically saying that if you leave, you are no longer a Christian and therefore you and your kids are no longer sanctified. Unbelievable!

I should be receiving the book "Undertow" by Charlene Edge any day now. After I've finished that I would like to read Love Wins. I will check on the thread you sent me. Thanks!

Now that you've asked, I think that if they're not old enough or if they're mentally unable to understand and confess Rom 10:9,10 and get born again thereby becoming a member in the body of Christ (as is the case with my grandson), there is no way God would punish them like those who will be in the resurrection of the unjust. So that only leaves going to heaven, either at the gathering together or with the resurrection of the just. I personally prefer at the gathering together but either way, they will be resurrected to life .

This is very interesting because verse 24 does say “then” as in ‘at that time’, and not before. Until Jesus hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, until he has abolished all rule and all authority and power, until he has put all his enemies under his feet including the last enemy, death, and until he has put all things in subjection under his feet, verse 25 says he must reign. Then the son himself will also be subjected to God, so that God may be all in all. So first he reigns and then at the end, he subjects himself to God. What is all involved in his reigning? Is it only accomplishing the 4 "untils" listed above? Is he working on the 4 "untils" during the Grace admin or does he begin only after he gathers the body of believers? TWI did teach that Jesus was not a king and did not have a kingdom during the Grace admin. During that time, he was our Lord and the head of the body of Christ. Were they accurate on this doctrine?

It sounds like there is a verse for this. I'd be bless to know it. My second reply to this post is about "What's in a name." Speaking of Jesus, the Word says, "and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross! And therefore God raised him to the highest place of honor and gave him the name that is above every name, So like daddy, like son. Daddy's name, YHWH, is not to be given to anyone else, and Jesus' name is above every name. We are in incredible company!

Thanks WordWolf for all your recent posts. In reply to this one, 3 things came to mind so I'll share them on separate posts. My first one is in response to the verses above. I know I'm getting a bit so please let me know when it's necessary to post on a different forum. I wrote earlier that my grandson has non-verbal autism. Cameron is 7 years old and is an incredibly sweet boy. Since he currently understands only simple sentences which he’s heard repeatedly, I know he is not able to believe Rom 10:9,10 now or possibly forever. But I also know that because of God’s mercy and grace, he will go to be with Christ with the rest of us believers (imho) and receive a new body and mind. How great is our God and savior!!! Thinking about the return brought 1 Cor 7:14 to mind. It says, “For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of the wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.” From what I can remember, TWI taught that if a child has at least one Christian parent, that child is then made holy (saved) until he/she reaches an age of accountability (whatever that is). In answer to OldSkool’s earlier question to me, however, I can say that I do not think the way international is qualified to say authoritatively what the accuracy of the word really is. First off, I’ve always had trouble with their interpretation of this verse because it infers that unlike children of Christians, the children of non-Christian parents don’t get to be saved until they reach an age of accountability. This to me is unfair (imo). Next, the first part of the verse appears to contradict what they teach about the second part. It says that a husband or wife is made “holy” because of their believing spouse, but we know “holy” here cannot mean “saved” (imo) because as an adult, you have to confess Rom 10:9-10 in order to receive that ticket to heaven. Since all 3 places “holy” is used in this verse come from the same Greek word “hagios” (which means “set apart/sanctified”), I’m thinking that the verse is saying any young child or unbelieving spouse will be sanctified or set apart from the other unbelievers in that they will be blessed along with their Christian spouse, mother or father (again imo). This still leaves the question of what happens to young children who die. Do they go to heaven? If anyone would like to share their thoughts about this (here or on another thread), it would be great.

Perfect - will do.

I’m a retired primary grade teacher, so your use of a quiz is perfect, and the specific pop quiz you gave, I find to be very helpful. After I read your reply, the verse “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” came to mind. I mean, that’s perfectly clear, right? Since God is the source (imho), I don’t have a problem with this. However, when VP quoted it, you knew he was stressing not the knowledge of God, but the ACCURACY of this knowledge. So going back to your pop quiz, my answer to #1 is no. When the source is VP/TWI, I learned long ago from their handling of the Word on tithing that they were not trustworthy on that subject. Therefore, I have to remember that anything else he/TWI said cannot be blindly and naively taken as truth. My answer to #2 is TWI with VP sitting at the top. By adding “accurate” to describe “knowledge,” he is basically directing us back to everything he/TWI teaches (AKA his opinions and definitions) because he was the one God chose to teach the accuracy of God's Word as it hadn't been known since the first century. It's funny how question #2 always brings us back to question #!. So I did get 100% on the quiz, so now I’ll go and put a “Good Work” sticker on my forehead. Seriously though, thanks for your help.

Waysider, I was referring to possibly you using ironic humor in your post. I do apologize if this offended you. Can anyone tell me how to get rid of a quote you don't want before submitting your reply (like the one below)?

I'm sorry. I don't know whether you are trying to be funny but what you said did just cause a laugh to come up and out of me.

I know commitment is vital in order to work out problems that pop up in all marriages. When deciding on who to marry, don't people "normally" get to know each other more than whether someone "stands on Word" or not. In the corps, when the leaders kept everyone so busy, how did anyone have time to get to know someone just as a person, not just from the "role" he or she had. It's very likely that I accepted "any 2 Christians can make a marriage work" because it sounded easy or because if VP said it, it must be true or because I struggled, even before going into the ministry with how to actually get to know the person I was dating in a healthy way. All three were genuine reasons for me at the time. Thank you so much for the threads. My experience in searching for topics on this site has been unsuccessful. The only way I know how is to scroll through all 187 pages to find something that's connected to my topic of interest. My other choice is just to ask if any of you know a thread that could help which I'll probably be doing over time.

I’m interested in how other Grease Spotters deal with “the accuracy of the Word,” not for the purpose of being right and therefore everyone else is wrong, but just for your own understanding? The reason I’m asking has to do with why I came on this forum in the first place - because Jesus had pretty much been absent in my walk with God. So this morning, I began to talk with Jesus and immediately my mind jumped to, “well what about God?” So in trying to answer this question, I imagined turning my head back and forth and talking with Jesus on one side and God on the other (like you do when you’re watching a game of tennis). I also thought of maybe when I’m talking to Jesus, his “picture” pops in my mind and when I then want to talk to God, Jesus’ picture disappears and one of God pops up (kind of like Whac-a-Mole). I'm being serious here. It was all so confusing and mentally exhausting but “I wanted to get it right” (for my personal understanding). That’s when the idea came to me, either from God, Jesus or neural circuits working in my brain (who knows) of both of them sitting together on a couch with me sitting across from them. I felt peaceful with this solution so I'll stick with it for now. Right away, however, I’m wondering what “according to scripture” can I accurately ask for or say to each one. This need is from being in TWI for so many years – THE ACCURACY OF THE WORD. I must strive to find “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.” So after deciding to read Rom 1:1-10 to see how Paul might have handled this “problem,” I found he wrote that 1) we serve both God and Jesus and 2) grace and peace come from both God and Jesus or from God through Jesus 3) God’s good news concerns his son, Jesus 4) we belong to Jesus Christ [and using “previous knowledge”, as sons of God, we also belong to Him] and 5) Paul wants to do the will of God which is all Jesus ever wanted to do (e.x., he prayed in the garden, “Father, not my will, but yours be done.” All this brought to my remembrance how Jesus said he and his Father are one (John 10:30) They want the same thing for us. Everything we have is from God through Jesus. They’re on the same team (or couch). Again peace came. Chockfull, it seems your earlier prayer for my peace is being answered one step at a time. I hope to hear your thoughts.

I would like to return to the Vineyard church I mentioned in one of my earliest posts. They are loving and accepting of others regardless of their religious beliefs. They also do activities in the community to help others out and show people the love of God. I just need a little more time.

This is a short follow up to my long post from earlier today. Although I can tie many of the decisions I made during my time with the way ministry to their wrong doctrine and cult-like practices, many of my other decisions were based on unhealthy beliefs I held long before going to my first fellowship. I was a very insecure, naive and people-pleasing teenager. I had very little guidance growing up as my father was an alcoholic and my mother was oppressed (and depressed) by the physical and emotion abuse she received from my dad. So the attention I received at my first fellowship from two outgoing, friendly and happy WOW girls and the teaching I heard about God’s unconditional love and being righteous before Him because of Jesus Christ was what I was desperately needing. The problem was that all the classes I took and all the ways I participated within the ministry led me to think that I was walking in fellowship with God. I believed that my confidence in Him grew because I was doing the “work of the ministry.” What I couldn’t see was that most of what I was doing was simply playing “follow the leader.” I was never set free from the pain and insecurities that lived deep within me – they were merely covered over at certain periods of time. I finish with my own “literal translation according to usage” of Hebrews 10:1,2 1 For since the way ministry is never able, by all their classes and all the sacrifices they want you to offer year after year, make those who draw near to their leaders complete in Christ. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped needing to take the same classes ad nauseam and sacrifice their time and money to the way ministry until the day they died? Because the ones who serve, having experience their completeness in Christ as a way of life, would have had no more need for their mistakes, shortcomings and sincere questions to be thrown up in their faces. Good night and God bless.

I remember attending a "charismatic" Catholic meeting shortly before I ended up in the way. I really liked the priest and there was some of what you're describing above taking place. I don't know if these meetings are still going on in my city. I might check around to find out.

As a grandmother of a baby needing life-saving surgery at birth and 2 follow-up surgeries as well as later being diagnosed with non-verbal autism, I know from supporting my daughter how challenging it is emotionally and physically to care for a child with chronic health issues. Your experience of how they made things more difficult for you because they couldn't demote you is heartbreaking. At least it got you out of there. Sorry about the quotes below. I didn't know how to get rid of them.

Hi OldSkool, thanks for your post. Can you share some specifics about why your son's condition was highly against HR law and what happened with your director at the hospital? If it's a personal matter, I understand.

I was interested in one of the quotes that are listed on the right side of the page under the heading “Top Posters in this Topic” so I clicked on it and it brought me back to page 18. I read this page and my interest kept me going for another two until my eyes needed a break. While there were a lot of disagreements going on, there was also some comic relief with the cherry on top being the post by T-Bone which began with “A good Grease Spotter never sleeps… All in all, however, each poster had written one or more things that I connected with and for that I’m grateful. It did get me thinking though about what I hope to give as well as receive from posting on GSC and by reading other people’s posts. I wrote somewhat of a “tome” today about my history with TW. I apologize if this is not the purpose of this thread, but I thought some of you would be able to connect with me and my story without thinking “what the heck is wrong with this person” as I sometimes do when I look back on it. Along with feeling a connection with you all because of what you’ve shared, I also want and need (sorry, not a flashback to the 5 things you need to know…) a light to shine into the crevices of my mind where some of the ministry’s dark influences and doctrines most likely still remain. Even though I know this is not a religious site, based on what I’ve learned so far, I think GSC is a good place for this to happen (with the help and guidance from big daddy God and cool brother and lord Jesus Christ).

Here’s my history with TW. Sorry, it’s a bit long. I took the class in 1974 and went WOW in 1975. That year was a mixture of the good, the bad and the ugly. I was 19 and had never lived away from home before. We were a family of 6 (3 guys and 3 girls), but 2 left. One of them was a friend who I went to grade school with and who lived down the street from me growing up. He had a mental breakdown on the field and then continued to struggle for a few more years after that. I’d meet up with him at times once I returned back home and often he was making no sense when talking about God and other stuff – it was like his brain was fried. As far as I knew he was never like that before going WOW. I did like my WOW family and enjoyed the fellowships, teaching the Word and to some degree, even witnessing. I wanted to stay on the straight and narrow and not return to old bad habits and to help me do so, I developed an eating disorder (which I have had to deal with off and on ever since). It was also very upsetting when I couldn’t go home for a visit when I heard that my mom had left my dad. Although I felt proud when I finished the year and received my WOW pin, to be honest, it wasn’t just "my commitment and love for God" that kept me on the field. It was also because I wanted to see my boyfriend again at the Rock of Ages (a WOW ambassador I had started to date before going WOW ). However, that's when I found out that he had hooked up with someone during his Corps year. I left the ministry shortly after returning home and was doing alright until I began to miss the fellowship of believers so I moved to another city to get back into “the Word.” During that year, the Corps leader on his interim year approached me and yadda, yadda, yadda, I got off the straight and narrow path, became pregnant, refused his suggestion to have an abortion and later had a beautiful baby boy. He was sent immediately to some faraway place in Canada, and I had no further contact with him until a few emails decades later. In 1978, I took the advanced class and married a fellow believer six months after we met based on the way’s teaching that any two believers, even with very little else in common, would have a successful marriage as long as they stood on the word. We had a quick honeymoon and then immediately went WOW together with my 1 year old son. The two of us were expected to start up a fellowship in a new city. That's when . I soon realized that my spiritual life had been built, not on a rock, but on sand whose particles were made up of the belief that if I took the advanced class and went WOW, I’d become this strong and wonderful believer. In reality, I found out that not only could I not live up to my WOW commitment’s expectations (because of the sand situation) but also that my new husband really had no interest in living up to it at all – he’d only went WOW because I wanted to go. The ensuing paranoid was horrible. I believed with all my heart that if I “copped out,” we were going to lose God’s hedge of protection and become sitting ducks for the adversary (including my son!). I mentally lost it and we left both the field and the ministry. Thankfully, I regained my sanity a little while later. Now to quickly put an ending to this long story, we eventually got back into the Ministry (I know, I know ), I became pregnant with my second child, the country coordinator who was married with two children wanted to have an affair with me, I had a third baby while living in a Way home, actually went door-to-door witnessing a few days after giving birth (again – crazy stuff) and in 1986, I finally left the ministry for good. I gave up hope in the ministry when the new country coordinator snubbed me and accused me of pridefully thinking I knew more than “Doctor Wierwille” because I’d come to believe (through much studying) that their doctrine of tithing was not biblical. There was also all the other crap going on in the ministry at that time, but the “straw-and-camel’s back” reason was because my mother was dying of cancer. The same mother I had spent so little quality time with because of my beliefs and activities in the way. Thankfully, again, I was able to be of some comfort to her before she died. During all those years in the ministry, I had a desire to go into the Corps as another way of growing spiritually, but was too timid about asking people to sponsor me. Based on what I’ve been reading on GSC, I am so, so glad I never took that route. However, a family that I knew and deeply cared about (except for the husband who had a long history of wanting to have the status of being a “way elite”) did take that route and went into the Family Corps. Unfortunately, the wife herself had a long history of dealing with a bipolar disorder. She left the Corps in a manic state during their first year and her husband and 3 children, who then also had to leave the Corps, wanted nothing more to do with her after that. As being a mother was the most special thing in her life, she committed suicide within a year. Her “Christian” and still way-believing family never came to the funeral. I can relate to much of the pain and anger I read about in some posts. I include the word “much” because I’ve never had to live through the brutal experiences of being in the corps like a lot of you did. I still carry around the desire to do 2 Timothy 2:15, but I’m learning to listen to the biblical beliefs of others and respect their right to have them.