Charity

Even after I say there's no point in discussing things with Mike, I still feel the desire or need to shine some light and truth on what he says - not so much for him because he doesn't want to see it, but for others, especially new people, who read his posts. On my walk outside just now, I talked to Christ about all those still blinded by twi, those who are hurting in twi, those who have left twi but are still hurting and those who, like me, are beginning to heal or like others who are continuing to heal years after leaving twi. GSC is one way Christ can lead people into the way, and the truth and the life which is to himself.

Then again, Jesus might have done something like a Matthew 21:12-13 if he saw this. 12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”

50 years ago, I would have eagerly bought into this and scooped me up one of those d*mn bronze desks. Now, I would put a wooden plaque next to it which said "Jesus wept." It' just all so sad when you compare what twi offers to the reality of Christianity being relationship based - not to a man or his books - but with God our Father and Christ our Lord.

Thanks WordWolf. This is so insane I've got to think there's a miniscule chance he was playing with us. If not, it does give me reason to worry big time about him.

Thank you for that bit of info . I had never heard of this idea before so I searched the word "orange". The orange book shows up a lot in "Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!" thread. Very interesting - I'll catch up on the posts I've missed later today. It looks like I'll need a nice mug of hot chocolate for some comfort though.

Yeah, you got me. Just some rhetorical questions to bring things back to Christ and our relationship with him.

Hi OldSkool, I need to clarify something. When I said, "The sentences I highlighted in black makes me wonder for Christians who grew up spiritually under this paradigm and believed in it for many years, just how challenging it is to get out from under such a burdensome mantle of responsibility placed on to us through twi," I wasn't talking about physically growing up in the ministry. Sorry, my bad. I was referring to Christians whose walk in Chris began with their involvement in twi - when they learned early on that their relationship with God was all wrapped up in the law of believing in order to receive anything from Him. Regardless, may Christ lead all of us who have left twi into a relationship with the Father that is based on love. Jeremiah 31:13

It would be nice to hear you talk more about the "ever present Christ, spiritually with in us." What does this mean to you? Other than being inside us, how do you fellowship with Christ throughout the day?

I hope a loving 2-way relationship with Christ as our Lord is one of them.

One last thing Mike - where is Christ in all of this?

Regarding your last paragraph (which I find to be very powerful), I've noticed you often write about a personal relationship between us and God and Christ, with Godly love being the bond that holds it all together. The sentences I highlighted in black makes me wonder for Christians who grew up spiritually under this paradigm and believed in it for many years, just how challenging it is to get out from under such a burdensome mantle of responsibility placed on to us through twi. On a different thread, T-Bone shared this from the article, "What Does It Mean To 'Change The Narrative'? - Step By Step Parents" - "Basically, what this means is that our FEAR can be directly linked to our first introduction and mental images of the narrative we’ve been conditioned to believe as true." He also wrote personally, "To escape the mental prison of a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International, I had to take it upon myself to change the narrative..." Twinky wrote about how a loving, community-based church helped her after she left twi. A lot of other helpful advice has been given by posters on GSC. I see though how necessary it is to keep the goal always in our sight as we work our way out of the past spiritual emptiness, and that goal is the true nature of Christianity as highlighted in red above. For me, this goal will be the wind beneath my wings. Thanks everyone

I saw more posts came in while I was writing this. Thank you to everyone who cleans up the "crap" laid by twi. You guys rock.

Thanks Rocky. As I said last night, I knew right after I sent that reply to Mike that I had wasted my time and words, in other words casting pearls before swine. I thought it better to let him live on his own little island with his beloved collaterals than engaging with him any more. I even wondered why he bothers to post on GSC for the same reason - he's wasting his time and words. However, after reading the posts this morning to Mike from you, WordWolf and OldSkool, I fully understand what you mean when you say Mike is hijacking "threads for a purpose diametrically opposed to the website's purpose." It's so he can still promote twi and pfal which is why people have to then confront and correct his false and evasive posts so no one will fall for them. I also can see the ploy he uses by "agreeing" with some things on GSC and saying how he sincerely wants twi to change in these areas (with his help of course) when what he really wants to do is keep a foot in the door so he can continue his spiel.

Thanks for your reply Mike. I did an online jigsaw puzzle after my last post and I was thinking all the while that your reply would basically be what you said in your last 2 paragraphs. I see, therefore, that no more discussions with you are needed when it comes to the collaterals as you believe they are inherently perfect. That only leaves you with the knowledge that "many of the practices and traditions and teachings of all the TWI administrations have inherent human problems" which you admit are difficult to change. You have decided on your course of action as to how you can perhaps help these changes happen and in the meantime, you are happy with what local fellowship you have now. So again, I see no further need for discussion on these matters with you. Let me know, however, if there are any real changes at HQ. God bless you Mike.

Mike, I cannot see this ever happening because of the corrupted ministry traditions, practices and doctrines which continue to this very day. It are these things that cause TEMPORARILY new students to "morph into permanent ones." This belief is based on my experiences in and knowledge about twi. 1. There was harsh judgment and subsequent consequences for anyone who questioned what twi taught. Why do you think "after still more time" in the ministry, so many people did not see or if they did see, did not stand up and speak about the error in twi's "Great Principle?" It actually took people leaving twi before they could openly question, discuss and realize the inaccuracy in this or any other doctrine. 2. You wrote, "After a short time, the new student can learn to use the collaterals for herself to see the Epistles and the rest of the Word." Okay, now the new student no longer needs to be spoon fed pfal by teachers, but she still has to use the pfal callaterals if she wants to see the Epistles and the rest of the word for herself. In other words, the umbilical cord is still there. I'm not sure what "use the collaterals" even means, but almost everything new I learned throughout my years in twi was from their other classes, Sunday Night Service (SNS) tapes, the monthly way magazine and new book publications (all of which I had to pay for). BTW, isn't the current twi doing some type of the old "Word over the World (WOW)" ambassador program? I went wow "a short time" after taking the pfal class (about half a year later) because of the spiritual growth I was told I would experience. It's been almost 50 years since my year on the field, so I don't remember a lot of details, but what I do remember is that the year was basically based on pfal - living with other pfal grads and all of us witnessing and teaching from the collaterals and trying to put pfal classes together. Like I said: umbilical cord...still there. 3. You wrote, "Then, after still more time, any Bible version can be opened far from any collaterals, and the matured student receive nourishment. Mike, you know this is only allowed if this new "nourishment" agrees with twi's doctrines. If not, your leaders will not be happy campers. The first time I really studied something "far from any collaterals" by myself, it was about tithing. After 12 years, I dared to think of myself as "mature enough" to do this. The nourishment I did receive was to learn that the "law of tithing" doctrine in "Christians Should be Prosperous" was not only inaccurate but also detrimental (harmful, damaging, hurtful) to believer's financial, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being. Mike, I highly doubt that much has changed since my involvement in twi.

Thanks Bolshevik, I've been doing more thinking on this. According to John 16, Jesus is the "source of or behind" everything that the spirit of truth would say and do. This was the same deal with Jesus and his Father. Jesus, after he received the spirit of God when he was baptized, always said that everything he did and said was what his Father showed or told him to do and say. The point to this is that the focus is on the "source" from whom all knowledge and power originates. Now compare this to what the article found on twi's website (as shown on the first page of this thread) says. "The great principle (GP) we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm AS YOU act or AS YOU speak out." Where is the focus placed? If I edited the above as follows - "The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your (His) spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm AS YOU act or AS YOU speak out as you listen to and obey God... - you'd get is "God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you. Then His spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you listen to and obey Him." We're still in there, but God, not us, is the focus. It's like what's been posted time and time again - twi wants the focus to be on us because they know our focus is on them as our teachers of the accuracy of God's Word, all of which replaces the absent Christ. New question is if it's significant whether the spirit of truth is an "it" as in twi's GP or an "he" as in the Bible.

Great metaphor - I think these students are just waiting for a missed hit so they can go chasing after the ball.

I enjoyed reading your explanation of twi's "GP," despite the dizzying effect it had on my neurons . Now if we can only figure out what Jesus really meant in John 16:13-15 so can can party hardy . 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

You're quite right about women being abusive as well. Thanks for the insight.

I remember going through something similar to this on “the absent Christ (TAC)” thread concerning how during my way ministry (twi) years I had come to minimize Christ in my life. This practical error stayed with me for decades after leaving twi and I knew all along that something was missing in my Christian life. It turned out to be a “someone” was missing and that was Christ. Now still having a twi-mindset about the holy spirit, I feel once again that something or someone is missing. The way twi changed the “he” into an “it” when referring to holy spirit. As a result, I always pictured the spirit as being a gift-like package and therefore an “it.” This led right into the broken-cistern teaching of the “great principle” where we must operate “it” - the gift in order to manifest the power. So Jesus and God have been “out there” in the heavenlies and my 2-way relationship with them has to go through this gift of spirit that is inside me. See what I’m saying? I had an “it (a conduit)” inside me and the “persons” of God and Jesus outside of me. So now I’m thinking after reading your posts and those of others that the holy spirit cannot be an “it,” especially if “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church” as you said. What if all three of them lived inside us - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? They are all one in purpose so it would be detrimental to separate the spirit of truth from the other two as I was doing. Although they work together as a team, I think they each have a vital “role” in helping us to walk in love and in power. I’ll have to think more about this - what their ”roles” are according to scripture, so I can then know them better and confidently reach out to them in times of need. Make sense?

Could be. This meeting with Stiles happened in the late 50's or early 60's I think. It was more common for men, religious or not, to have that dominating, controlling or oppressive attitude toward women. But the book, The Way-Living in Love, was printed in 1972 and he purposely added those demeaning beliefs about women in at that time when they had nothing to do with his topic of speaking in tongues. It's just so revealing that this was the same man who drugged and raped, sexually used and abused women and yet was still idolized by thousands of unknowing people. So much spiritual darkness.

I haven't read the article yet but the name of it makes me think of a few of vp's quotes from "The Way - Living in Love" that T-Bone posted earlier. ”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’ ‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’ then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.” What a mean male chauvinist pig he was.

Thus the . Thanks Mike.

Thank you, T-Bone for your humility and honesty when sharing on GSC. Two verses came to mind after reading your post. 1) But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere (*simple) and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Cor 11:3 (NIV) *Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “sincere” as haplotés meaning singleness, hence simplicity 2) in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the **unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not *dawn upon them. 2 Cor 4:4 (ASV) * Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “dawn upon” as augasai meaning beam forth **I’m taking the word “unbelieving” and applying Rom 10:14a (NIV) to it: “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?” __________ Thank you, T-Bone for your humility and honesty when sharing on GSC. Two verses came to mind after reading your post. 1) But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere (*simple) and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Cor 11:3 (NIV) *Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “sincere” as haplotés meaning singleness, hence simplicity 2) in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the **unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not *dawn upon them. 2 Cor 4:4 (ASV) * Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “dawn upon” as augasai meaning beam forth **I’m taking the word “unbelieving” and applying Rom 10:14a (NIV) to it: “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?” __________ That is how I feel about most of my time in twi. I did not hear about a “sincere and pure devotion to Christ” nor did the “light of the gospel of the glory of Christ” beam forth. Instead their devotion to Christ was deluted to the utmost degree and the glory of Christ was obscured all because of their laser focus on all things "vp." Who orchestrated all this? Both verses reveal the answer – the serpent’s cunning and the god of this world. What does that say about twi?! I trust Psalm 40:1,2 for deliverance from all things "vp": "I waited patiently for Yahweh. He turned to me and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of a horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings."