Charity

I like your description of the new birth being the incorruptible seed and what such a seed needs in order to grow. I went for a walk a while ago and I was thinking more about some of the things I had posted. Then, I read your reply after I got back. What you said about the fruit of the spirit being traced back to the seed is along the line of what I was thinking during my walk. I had written that anyone, believer or not, could be those things that are included in the list of the fruit of the spirit: loving, peaceful, patient, kind, etc. Then it became clearer to me what the difference is between a believer doing them and a non-Christian doing them. It goes back to the seed being the new birth (aka, gift of holy spirit, God's divine nature, new creation, etc.) Non-Christian can experience and give love, but only Christians can experience and give God's love because it's in the seed of the new birth. It's like this for each of the fruits of the spirit. Only Christians can experience the peace that passes all understanding or the joy that comes from rejoicing in the Lord. Because the fruit comes by way of the spirit, each one is experienced in a deeper, greater and spiritual sense for the Christian. It's all such great stuff!

Your first sentence made me think of what it would have been like to be a Jew living during the time of Jesus' ministry - to hear him teach and see the miracles he did and be there for his resurrection and ascension into heaven. Yet many of the Jews stopped following Jesus him because they couldn't accept some of the things he said like in John 6:53-66, while those who were expecting Jesus to literally become their king gave up on him when they saw him crucified. I do not know anything about the history of the Jews or about the history of how the Bible came to be, but I'd like to learn. I'll add them to my bucket list.

I was looking at Romans 7 yesterday. It covers what you wrote above as well as the choice between living by the law which held people captive (for us, the law would have been all of twi's rules and expectations) and serving in the newness of the spirit. Reading it again now, I'm still trying to understand the last verse where it says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God." I finally clicked over to read chapter 8 (like you also recommended) and WOW - there's a LOT in there related to this verse. It's been a while since I've read this chapter - I'll look at it more closely tomorrow. So cool .

You wrote (the underlining is mine): "At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them." This is so loving and inspiring in sharp contrast to the "in-your-face" and condemning reproof that was given in twi or the "personal prophecy" horror show that some ex-way followers began to practice in an off-shoot ministry. You wrote: "For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it." A peaceful "knowing" may well be the key when discerning if what you're hearing is really from God. There's nothing wrong with being excited about learning the Bible or having fellowship with others who are excited about God, His Word and Jesus. But as I read Charlene's book, "Undertow" and look back to the time I became involved with twi, it was not "a peaceful knowing." It was more of a "hyped-up knowing" or the "adrenaline-rush kind of knowing" from hearing about the "man of God," the "biblical research and teaching ministry," the "class etc." The teachings were great (based on what little I knew of the Bible), but they could also have been called the "opening act" with the main attraction being "way stuff" that came after (including being shown the "incredible" green card." It is important to listen for and hear that quiet still voice from God.

You made many good points. Thank you. I was thinking of the pedestal thing with twi - it's the word, the word and nothing but the word. That's why I said I still believed the Bible is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ. I was going to write "the" important way, but I'm learning there are other ways that are important as well. I what you said about love. It's the whole 1 Cor 13's "but have not love" truth. Reading the book of Acts is top of my to-do list especially in the context of what the Jews knew at the time before apostles arrived to teach them or before they had their turn of reading the epistles. And those poor Gentiles didn't even have the knowledge of the OT.

Honestly OldSkool, I looked for your original post before I sent the one above asking you to resend it, but I didn't see it. I thing it's the scrolling up and down that throws me off. Anyway, I have found your original post!

OMG - I was copying and pasting some of the words you used up above and I somehow messed up your post. Please resend it to me.

How do we manifest that new nature? Is it only through the renewed mind which we are responsible for doing? How does God working in us (as in present tense) fit into this? Phil 2:13

I agree with "through His Word" and I'm glad you share it. Now I know that the beliefs of twi, that the Bible (as vp taught it) was the "inherent accuracy of God's Word" and that it "fits together like a hand in a glove," are just not possible. His proclamation that he taught the Word as it hadn't been taught since the apostles of the first century is also impossible. All of these states are false. So what we're left with are the different versions of the Bible which I still believe is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ. A discussion of spiritual matters using critical thinking and done with respect I think is possible on GSC.

Chockfull said, "The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance. Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there." This is so very funny - I'm still laughing because I can still picture it as you described it. Thanks for sharing it . In twi, bearing fruit of the spirit is what happens when you manifest the 9 manifestations of the spirit of which SIT was foundational. In my experience, however, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self-control did not just spring up just because I SIT in my head. So living brings about bearing. Makes a lot of sense since living a godly life includes doing the fruit of the spirit (be loving, good, kind, etc.). So you already have the fruit before bearing more of it. This brings to mind (using your plant life cycle), is that doing the fruit is like planting the seed and since seed can only produce after its own kind (one apple seed grows into an apple tree which produces a lot of apples), then doing love will produce more love in us. This is true for anyone, believer or non-believer. My question then is how does the phrase "fruit of the spirit" fit in? It seems to have some connection to the spirit we receive when we're born again.

It's like that old comforting statement when something goes bad, "don't worry, one day you'll look back on this and laugh."

Okay, I get it now. Forget what I wrote earlier about how better it was that martindale did this with the 6th corps instead of having a meltdown and yelling at everyone to get the heck out.

I'm hoping to have a discussion about how God works in our lives. There are so many verses that tell believers what to do such as walk in love and renew your mind. My foundation for living a Christian life began with and for 12 years was based on twi's doctrine and practices. I remember the ministry's phrase that said to "practice the presence of God," but I pretty much took that to mean I was to think about God instead of worldly things which brought me back to something I was to do. I remember hearing, "you do your part and God will do His part. What does that even mean. I know now that it has to do with having a two-way relationship with God and Christ. It wasn't easy, however, for this to happen in twi because you were so busy doing their work of the ministry, (hold fellowships, witness, run classes, go to leaders about everything) that my relationship with them was way more established than my relationship with God or with Jesus, who by the way, was absent. So when I read Phil 2:12,13 which says I am to work out my own salvation for it is God who is working in you both to want to do, and to do, his good pleasure, I wondered what did this all entail and how does He do it. I'm especially thinking about experiencing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) and living with the power of God in our lives.

It might have done the trick concerning his son. I'm pretty sure the son had grown up in twi but he did this huge self-destructive rebellion later on in life. He's now a senior pastor at the church his ex-twi-leader-father started and teaches the same you-can-lose-your-salvation doctrine.

I knew someone who was in the 6th corps and he must have re-committed himself because I'm pretty sure he was eventually ordained. I hope lcm calmly discussed with you his reason(s) for dismissing you. The way he handled it though (dismissing people one on one in his office) does seem contrary to the anger he was known to show. If it was going to be done, I'm glad he did it that way.

Thanks for your whole post OldSkool. It was nice of you to let me know it was coming after you got home from work. Concerning the above portion of it, I have questions around the renewing your mind which I'd like to bring up at another time. I do want to be closer to Jesus and GSC is helping big time with this. About the offshoots, sorry, but I've already been there and done that with 3 of them (Living Hope, The Living Truth and Spirit and Truth). One of them now teaches we are no longer saved if we make the decision to deny our faith in Christ and walk away from God. Their statement of belief says, "Faith implies obedience (James 2:14-26). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must obey. We are required to maintain faith unto the end (Hebrews 3; 6; 10) in order to enter the Kingdom." In other words, we are required to maintain obedience unto the end..." One shared some "political" views in an interview about his ministry which I thought was wrong for a minister to do (imo). About another one, I find their REV bible useful at times so I refer to it along with other versions. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” Great verse. It would be so helpful to know, understand and believe this verse before getting swept up and pulled under by twi's early love bombing and indoctrination into pfal.

Morning T-Bone, Thank you very much for all you wrote (and the others as well). I'll take you up on the above advice. My heart still feels heavy, so it looks like it's going to take some time to work through all this. I will still reply on other issues of topic as I still enjoy reading the posts.

You guys are more fun than a barrel of monkeys!

Yeah, I could never get very far with that. Amazing though how low some people could go.

I hope he did it "in private" and without speaking lies or pushing fear when he told others in the corps about why so many were no longer in the program.

Obsession with having power, pride (the need to have an adoring following) or a desire to have grads fellowship together so they could become rooted and grounded (or indoctrinated) in what he taught in pfal, could have been other reasons for wanting loyalty. I don't know if vp gave himself the title of "the man of God for all times" (not sure if the "for all times" are the exact words), but he certainly didn't stop people from saying and believing it. I can see how your decision on how to help people would bring you peace. It makes me peaceful when reading about it.

Cute post T-Bone. Normally I your sense of humor. I wrote a little while back about how your post on page 18 cracked me up. I was just a little slow on the uptake on the poster girl joke - actually, I think a snail would have been faster at getting it. love and peace back to you Charity A merry heart is good medicine

Quick comment. Limbo sounds better than purgatory. I've heard that the need for baby baptism because of "the original sin" was to keep people in the Roman Catholic church.

Thank you T-Bone for your godly love and for connecting with me. I'll post you some thoughts tomorrow as the Sandman has arrived. Sleep tight everyone.

Love your first line Chockfull (applies to me as well). I did get turned on to reading the Bible during those years, and I often did feel close to God. It gave me the opportunity to teach children's fellowship which inspired my later choice to get a university degree and go to teacher's college. It's just that their way of entrapping people and keeping us dependent on them was through their lie of being the only "true" church (ecclesia), so while I was enjoying some benefits, I was also thinking evil of other Christians and not as close to my family as I could have been. It just feels all wrong to me now. I'll have to have a heart-to-heart talk with big Daddy God and cool brother Jesus about it. Prov 16:18,19 speaks of my prideful self-righteousness for being in twi. 18Pride goes before disaster, and a puffed up spirit before stumbling. 19Better to be humble in spirit with the poor than to share the plunder with the proud.