Charity

I agree with what you wrote, “The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone.” But I don’t think it applies to verse 16-18 (imo) for 2 reasons: 1) By the time Peter writes these verses, Matthew, Mark and Luke had been written so his experience was already part of scripture. How could Peter’s verse 19 mean he is ranking Scripture over his experience when his experience is part of Scripture? 2) There was nothing wrong with Peter’s memory as others have said is the reason he wrote verse 19. What he shared about the transfiguration in verses 16-18 did not contradict what the 3 Gospels said about the event. Regarding verse 19, I agree with you that "The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah.” So does the context of verse 19 support the idea that Peter was pointing out to the believers how the completely reliable prophetic word would therefore confirm what Peter and the others were telling them about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty? It was not a cunningly devised fable.

Hi OldSkool, I have never spent much time looking at the record of Jesus’ transfiguration in the 3 gospels. I now find it to be very inspiring. The time for Jesus to be arrested, mocked, tortured and crucified was getting closer. He knows from Old Testament scripture just how bad it is going to be for him. Then you read about this miraculous way of God showing his deep love for His son in wanting to prepare him for what’s ahead. I think Jesus, who was a human like us, must have had his mind blown (was deeply affected) when he experienced how His father was showing him the future glory he would be given and, oh yes, I'm sure he was also comforted and strengthened (smile). Questions about 1 Peter 1:16, “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.” What is your understanding of “when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” in this verse? Who are the “we”? Was the “making known” referring to verbal telling(s) or previous scriptures the believers had received or both? I know at the time Peter wrote 1 & 2 Peter, the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke as well as Paul’s epistles had been already been written. Actually, that reminds me of Peter referring to Paul in 2 Peter 3:14-16a, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,

I'm thinking the opposite - that the prophetic word of the Old Testament in verse 19 confirms what Peter said in 1 Peter 1:16 and what he has been saying throughout the context of 1 and 2 Peter. Looking previously at 1 Peter 1, in verse 3, “a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” verse 5, “or a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time,” verse 7, “may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ,” and verse 13, “the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Finally, in 1 Peter 4:13, “but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that at the revelation of His glory you may also rejoice and be overjoyed.” Next, looking after is 2 Peter 3 verses 3 & 4, “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” In verses 8-10, Peter answers what these mockers said, “But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” Finally, there are verses 14-16a, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, 1 Peter 1:16 is in the middle and as I understand it, is still on the topic of the second coming, “16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.”

Thank you.

Hi cman, nice to meet you. You're right, the verse doesn't say "second" coming. I based that assumption on what I read in the following commentaries on this verse found on Bible Hub. How do you understand "we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," as describing a more sure word of prophecy. Barnes' Notes on the Bible The power and coming - These two words refer to the same thing; and the meaning is, his "powerful coming," or his "coming in power." The advent of the Saviour is commonly represented as connected with the exhibition of power. Matthew 24:30, "coming in the clouds of heaven, with power." The "power" evinced will be by raising the dead; summoning the world to judgment; determining the destiny of men, etc. Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers The power and coming.—The power conferred upon Christ after being glorified in His passion and resurrection, and his coming again to judgment. (Comp. 2Peter 3:4; Matthew 24:3; Matthew 24:27; 1Corinthians 15:23; &c., &c., where the same Greek word is used.) In this power He will come again. His first coming at the Incarnation would neither be the usual meaning of the word nor would suit the context. Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ] The “coming,” here, as in every other passage of the New Testament in which the word occurs, is the Second Advent, not the first. The mind of the Apostle goes back to what he had witnessed in the glory of the Transfiguration, as the pledge and earnest of that which was afterwards to be revealed.

Thanks T-Bone. I really appreciate the feedback. I'll reply with more questions later.

What is the “completely reliable prophetic message” mentioned in 2 Peter 1:19? “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.” (NIV) I have always understood this to mean that Peter’s human memory of the transfiguration of Jesus (16-18) was fuzzy at best so in contrast to this, he says it’s the scripture that’s a sure thing and to rely only on it (not on his own recollection). I don’t think this is what verse 19 is saying at all. In verse 16, Peter says that what they told the believers about the second coming of Christ in power was not like cunningly devised stories/fables. In other words, it was the truth. Then using the word “but,” (in contrast to these fables), he goes right into his eye-witnessed account of the transfiguration of Jesus on the mount. Since, the words Peter were writing here were inspired by God, they were then as they are now scripturally true. Nowhere in the context is the weakness of Peter’s recollection mention. Verse 19 as shown above does not say “we instead have the prophetic message because it’s more reliable.” It says, “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable. “Also” means in addition to. So if verse 19 wasn’t written to replace Peter’s eye-witnessed account, then why was it written? What does the “prophetic message” mean? To what is the prophetic message in this verse referring? Why is it a sure word of prophecy as written in the KJV?

Okay, you checked it out, you believed it was right so now you come on GSC to teach it just as twi teaches it. So now I'm saying I don't support your belief in it or twi's belief in it. What Raf has to do with any of this is beyond me. Case closed.

Case closed then - no further comment from me is necessary.

Mike you didn't respond to what I wrote about the word "hid" being used in comparison to being "taken up or received." Instead you begin again with the being hidden doctrine - "Besides hidden" - and then you moved on to a difference verse (2 Cor 5:16) which speaks for itself. "Seated at the right hand of God" and "Appointing us as his ambassadors" does not mean Jesus is hidden. I know from scriptures about Jesus before the ascension and I know from scriptures about Jesus after the ascension. You keep talking about his personal presence because it supports twi's doctrine of the presently absent Christ.

It's great to read scriptures Mike - thanks for sharing them. They clearly speak of Jesus going away and coming back again. However, these scriptures do not speak about being hidden like you claim Acts 1 does so I think it's a case of comparing apples to oranges.

Mike, You have made such a doctrine about this hidden Christ based on Acts 1:9 that I wanted to show you the following: 1) The word "hid" is used only for the ascension in Acts 1:9. As far as I know no verse after that refers to Jesus as being hidden as you do above. 2) According to the the 32 versions or translations of this verse shown on Bible Hub, the word "hid" is used in 9 of them while "taken up or received him" is used in 23. 3) However, compare this to verse 11, “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven,” and you'll find that all 32 versions or translations shown on Bible Hub say either "has been taken" or "was received." So out of the 64 usages of either the Greek word "hupolambanó" (meaning to take or bear up, receive) in verse 9 or "analambanó" (meaning to take up, raise) in verse 11, "hid" is only found 9 times. Very weak support to build a misleading and confusing doctrine on. By the way, T-Bone quoted some very interesting things about this cloud a few posts back. It was under his heading "Say, how about that cloud!"

Mike, actions speak louder than words, especially inaccurate ones. vp's teaching about wanting others to see Jesus falls flat on its face by everyone who knows how he utterly failed to do this and what a total hypocrite he was. Their testimonies to this fact are found throughout the threads on GSC. After reading the article a few times, I see that vp repeatedly links up his words about Jesus to the "word." When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree. I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God’s Word. The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation. For me, the many times vp uses "God's word" or "the word" are solely an advertisement for twi since twi markets itself as being the only group having the accuracy and integrity of the "word" because of him. For someone like me who no longer respects him as a researcher, writer, teacher, a Christian believer or even as a man, this chapter is a dud.

But Mike didn't vp say the law of believing works for saint or sinner alike? I thought he had. Sinners are not interested in God's promises but some might be interest in red sports car. So shouldn't the law of believing work for this sinner?

This is where I'm at right now Mike - I am searching for knowledge and understanding in addition to what vp says about a topic so I can then compare the two. 1 Thess. tells us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” After spending a lot of today reading 2 Peter 1 over and over again, I focused in on verses 16-19. I read different versions and commentaries as well as used Bible Hub's interlinear website. Then I compared it to what you said above, "he ends it with saying he also has something more sure than those memories." I read something different in those verses. So the question now is - do you want to know what I'm thinking? If you do, I'll share it in a brief reply. If you don't want to consider a different point of view - that's okay, I won't share it. No judgment on my part either way.

You used the word "present" twice - once in all caps. Present only means being in a particular place. So once Christ has given you life and is now present (where?) in you, what else is he doing in you? Please answer Yes or No Mike - After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth?

Acts 1:11 - This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” What is Jesus doing in the meantime Mike? He's not sitting on the right hand of God twidling his thumbs. I think being head of his church might keep him pretty involved with us - don't you?

I'm beginning to think Mike's only hope is to go traveling on the road to Damascus and look out for a bright light from heaven. Maybe such an experience would make Mike see just how present Christ is in our lives. Then Jesus can send him to preach to the lost souls in twi. Seriously though, this man needs deliverance.

Hi Twinky, You have been led to a beautiful place in your walk with Christ after all the foulest of foul crap you experienced in twi and even for years after leaving twi. I become very much at peace whenever you share personally about God in your life. I admit that I'm one to get myself tied up in knots when dealing with twi's handling of the scriptures. It's still new for me finding out about what others began posting about years ago, so I can get pretty intense about things. I've written about my anger and shock from seeing the errors in vp's teachings and realizing the harmful effects they have on believers. I've also talked about my joy when learning the truth about having a relationship with Christ. The thing to remember is to relax and listen to the spirit during this process. John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come

Your quick reply above concerns only my first 8 words - the rest (called the context and the main point), you never even touched on. God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with God and with him.

Yep, "thesaurus.com" gives 47 synonyms for hidden - not one is "absent." When we played "hide and seek" growing up, we were hidden but still present. If we were absent (left the playing area), the poor seeker was plain out of luck

Hi Mike, even if the "absent Christ" phrase happens only those 2 times, the reality of it shows up in many of the practices within twi as this thread shows. One of those practices is how twi reinforces this belief in their doctrine without ever using that specific phrase. If you read the following, you'll see what I mean and if you reply, please speak specifically about what is written. Thanks. ____________________________ The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. However, nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit. This verse does not say “God…teaches…” Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you. The Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus got the ax by twi! The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13. 14 He [the spirit of truth] will glorify me [Jesus] because it is from me [Jesus] that he will receive what he will make known to you.

Were all these interpolations* and this egocentric* theology in Stiles' book as well so that vp copied them into his own book and the pfal class? If these did not come from Stiles but from vp himself, it seems he would have had to persuade or pressure many others in twi, including the research department, to go along with him because he messed with so many verses to come up with the GP.

I believe you're right. I'm going through the verses more carefully this time, and so far Jesus giving his disciples authority is mentioned only in this context.

I haven't read your post yet, but I might have to throw that catch back into the lake. Matthew 10:11 says, "1Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness." I'll post more later.