Charity

Thanks for understand OldSkool. I'm sure there are many others who also had regrets when looking back at certain aspects of their service while in twi. I can count myself as being one of them. I'm thinking from what you share in your posts that you have found peace since then.

This is one "testimony" I can give about the absent Christ in my life while in twi. When I used to go witnessing, I don't remember bringing up Jesus much at all, certainly not about having a relationship with him. It was mostly about God and twi, pfal and twig fellowships. This must have been the case because for years after being out of twi, I felt uncomfortable mentioning Jesus in my conversations with others about God. It's still somewhat embarrassing even now to imagine me talking about him - the reasons for this I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment. I doubt I would have experienced any of the above if Christ was alive and kicking in twi.

Raf, I know I am a newbie, but I have shared my thoughts in green underneath your own. A question though: Did Jesus ever say God was an “absent Father” because He wasn’t actually present on earth when Jesus was?

Yes Mike and I'll reply to it tomorrow.

Well said T-Bone.

I am so grateful to you OldSkool for taking the time to put the above together. It's clear and precise and absolutely proves from scripture how involved Christ is in our lives. And it so negates the "absent Christ" dogma of twi. As you might remember, I only began posting on GSC recently (in late November of last year to be exact), and it was only after I began reading many of the posts on this thread at the time. That was when I realized that buying into the "absent Christ" doctrine and practices of twi had resulted in me only having an intellectual knowledge of Christ as you wrote about above, "Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesn’t do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplished works." Since then, you and many others helped me to understand that Christianity is all about having a personal relationship with Christ. That's when everything changed between Christ and I. It's like instead of watching the same player in the same old hockey game over and over again , you can now get on the ice and actually play the game with him (or her) . I have made a word document of what you wrote as it's a great reference of truth concerning this topic.

Thanks Chockfull, reading your analysis was easy on my brain cells which helps when delving into the book of Revelation for the first time. I'm sure there will be more food for thought as posts keep coming in.

After thinking about this some more, I realize that claiming to know what "the truth" is was the foundation that twi was said to be built upon and we know that claim is a huge, fat lie and we all know the hurt and arrogance that lie brought into our lives. Claiming to know "the truth" has led in the past to persecution and even wars within the body of Christ. This is not what Christianity is. Jesus spoke the truth and Christianity is about having a personal relationship with him and through him we come to know the Father. Personal means it's between the believer and Christ as we are led by the spirit he gave us. Our understanding of him and his words is meant to be a personal one and we are meant to walk in love towards each other as 1 Cor 13 defines it. All of this has been shared here many times before, even once or twice by yours truly.

I feel like I'm opening a can of worms here but here it goes anyway. A part of me agrees with what you said above, but another part of me thinks about what Jesus meant in John 8:31b-32, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” To double down on this there's John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." Interpretations of verses in the Bible are commonplace and by nature means understanding things differently or even in exact opposition to each other such as whether Jesus is God or not. Then you have the book of Revelation which is interpretation on steroids. What do we do with verses the speak of "the truth?"

Thanks T-Bone. I'm curious about some of the ideas shared above so keeping them in mind, I'll begin by just reading Revelations over the weekend.

In twi, many followers have cult-like leaders who tell them what they should constantly be doing. For a lot of people who were in the corps or lived or worked at headquarters, their lives were pretty much run all the time by top leadership. Some motivations for them to obey leaders could be: in order to get along or get by; for the wages; out of loyalty or because of a desire to please or climb the ladder to a higher position. Thankfully the motivations to serve or help others while in twi can change after leaving and one is no longer under their control. I thought about this when reading Matthew 6 and I found it awesome as it relates to the hope. Jesus gives two motivations for practicing righteousness such as giving to the needy, praying and fasting. One is to do them openly in order to be noticed by others and receive their praise as a reward and the other is to do them in secret where it’s just between you and the God you honor. For those who choose the latter, Jesus says they will be rewarded by God. Jesus concludes with verses 19-21: “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. As I learned more about the hope, the more verse 21 stood out. In this context, “treasures” (being the things we find precious) are either on earth (the rewards that come from men) or are in heaven (the rewards that come from God). Loving and helping others from the heart is in the same place as our treasure in heaven. They are both intrinsically connected! They go hand in hand like two peas in a pod or whatever other idiom you can think of that applies. When you do the first, you are reminded of the second. Or when you remember the second, you do the first. So I can see better now that the reality and joy of the hope is realized every time we love and help others. Instead of the heaviness of heart I felt earlier, it's like on air! Thank God .

I am curious to see what the scriptures say but I'm hoping God kept it simple enough that we wouldn't miss what He has planned for us. Looking forward to hearing back from you.

I was writing my reply to WordWolf's post when yours came. I've only been aware of the one timeline I heard in twi and as I've said, I haven't spent much time in the book of Revelations but I do better understand your first post on this thread.

I've always read 1 Thess 4:16-17 (about the dead in Christ rising first, etc.) as it stands on its own and not in the context of where it stands within the "end times." Along with the four interpretations of Revelations T-Bone mentioned from Wikipedia (historicist, preterist, futurist and idealist/symbolic), the different views you share people have about Revelations is a lot to consider and I can see how it can be a hot topic for discussion. For me personally, I don't think my brains cells are equipped to handle the depth of this topic, but if anyone wants to discuss it, go for it.

How vp and lcm used the hope to manipulate people into doing their bidding reminds me of one reason I never wanted to read the Book of Revelations. I had heard preachers use the great tribulation to motivate people into becoming saved. Maybe this fear-based approach had some success but I personally hated hearing it. Even Christians from various churches I attended long ago would bring it up when talking to me. Now that I'm out of twi, it's troubling to think of people being left behind after the gathering together but I like to focus on the scripture that says it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance. I think you've mentioned once about watching David Jeremiah on Sundays. What do you think about his timeline below which shows the rapture happening before the tribulation begins? I haven't yet decided to read Revelations from cover to cover - not even with the comfort of having hot chocolate in my mug but maybe I will one day with a reading buddy.

Stumbled upon this when I was looking for verses on rewards this morning - it's as plain as the nose on my face. I guess my five-senses mind needs a spiritual awakening in order to realize this truth - which brings up the spirit of truth again. Jesus called him the "helper" in (John 14:26) and said he would "glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you." (John 16:14) 1 Cor 15:12-19 12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

I feel similar to WordWolf about receiving heavenly rewards – our service becomes more “me-centered” than “other-centered.” Instead, love feels more of a genuine motivation to reach out and help others. In trying to understand God’s reasons then for giving rewards (not lcm’s or twi’s reasons), I looked at some scriptures this morning. So far, the receipt of rewards seems to fall under 2 categories: 1) for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ, and 2) for standing during persecution. I think God is telling us that if we are willing to serve to do so lovingly and keep the focus on Christ as well as God. Not only are there benefits now but there are also His rewards for having had the right heart. The other reason concerns the difficulty of facing persecution and to help us persevere during these times, God reminds us there will be rewards awaiting us. Both of these reasons help me to feel more comfortable about the topic of rewards. Below are the scriptures I looked at should you want to read them _________________________________________________________________ . CATEGORY #1 (for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ.) 1 Thess 2:7-12; 19-20 Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well. 9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. 10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory. 19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20 Indeed, you are our glory and joy. 1 Cor 3:8-15 (context is believers choosing which leader they will follow) 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 4:1-5 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 1 Peter 5:1-4 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. CATEGORY #2 (for standing during persecution) Hebrews 12:1-3 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. 1 Cor 15:30-32; 58 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. 2 John 1:7-8 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Like the 1942 revelation vp said he received?

I really like the song Chockfull - it is inspiring, especially the chorus. It makes me think again of the quote I shared in my opening post. "However, there is also little doubt that in many of our churches today, certainly in Britain, scant attention is given to this cardinal doctrine and hope. It is there in our creeds; it is there in our Advent guidelines; it is there in our Bibles: but it is all too often missing from our sermons, our meetings for prayer and our daily lives.” Maybe a lack of enthusiasm or faith in the hope is because of not hearing enough or reading enough about it. Maybe it's finding a church that is alive because of their hope in Christ's coming to gather us together to meet him in the air. Maybe it's growing closer to Christ that makes his return more real. All I know for sure is that the importance of it for believers is a big deal in scripture.

T-Bone, Thanks for sharing your interest and thoughts. I'm not sure if my reply will address any of your concerns above, but here is what I'm thinking. Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:5-7 about wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and famines and earthquakes in various places have been happening since the time Jesus spoke these wars right up to today. It's all horrible, horrible things that people have had to live through. It's also very concerning what the next day, week, month, year...might bring. When will all the pain and suffering stop for us and all of our future generations? The epistles encourage us to look forward to the time of Christ's return for his church. It's the hope we've been given. It is meant to strengthen us as we deal with whatever comes our way in life. Just as I'm sitting here writing this, I remember how excited I get thinking that my autistic grandson will one day receive a new body or I'll get to see my parents again. The biggest joy of them all is seeing Christ for the very first time. But then the doubt sets in. Is any of it true - will the return really happen?

I was googling about Christ's return and saw 1 John 2: 28: 28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. "Continue in him" is kind of hard to do when he is supposedly "absent." Previous verses in this chapter says, 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Keeping his commands is "proof" that we know Jesus and again this is kind of hard to do if he is absent in our lives. I'm going to try to change the title of this thread to "The Hope - Knowing Jesus" since this is how we can be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. Even though the title is the opposite of the Absent Christ title, a lot about knowing Jesus was shared in that thread. Hopefully, this thread will bring the two ideas together as 1 John talked about them.

Thank you very much for the helpful info you shared. "...and embrace the freedom to think and choose for myself" I so love to hear others speak about using critical thinking because it is so antithetical to what we experienced in twi. What was shared by others above has helped me to better understand 2 Peter 1. THANK YOU EVERYONE! There is not the one and only MOGFODAT who is responsible for the rightly dividing of God's word which must be then spread over the world. As we all know, vp thought very highly of himself. God's expectation greatly contradicts this. 2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Having discussions like the above

I read the following yesterday when googling about the parousia: “If we are going to assume that one of the signs that a biblical teaching is important lies in the amount of space given to it in the Bible, then it is clear that Jesus’ return to earth is one of the most important teachings to be found in the NT. It is frequently spoken about, clearly taught, and consistently applied from the teaching of Jesus himself right through to the last writing of the NT period. However, there is also little doubt that in many of our churches today, certainly in Britain, scant attention is given to this cardinal doctrine and hope. It is there in our creeds; it is there in our Advent guidelines; it is there in our Bibles: but it is all too often missing from our sermons, our meetings for prayer and our daily lives.” The Parousia: Getting our Terms Right by The Gospel Coalition To be honest, the hope of Christ’s return has never “burned” in my heart because I find it difficult to believe it’s really going to happen. One obvious reason is because Christ has been absent for my entire Christian life up until a few months ago so why would I have an intense desire to see him. Another reason is that the idea of our works here on earth being judged by Christ resulting in receiving or not receiving rewards had been poisoned by things like lcm saying something like “I don’t want to have to duck at Christ’s return” in the context of being a “doulos slave” or an “athlete of the spirit.” It’s distressing because if I claim to believe the scriptures about everything else, then why would the parousia seem to be so farfetched to me. This doubt often gnaws at my belief that God even exists. I’m wondering how others think and feel about Christ coming back and how a belief in the hope affects their lives.

I agree wholeheartedly - the 1942 promise was a cleverly devised manipulation technique that thousands of people bought into and who later deeply regretted doing so. From what I've read on different threads, vp was known for falsely prophesying future events and even claiming he and his ministry had actually stopped one from being fulfilled - I think it was the takeover of the US that was supposed to happen. What you say does make me wonder about what the real gift ministry of a prophet is today.

If I sound to anyone like my goal for starting this thread was to find the one true “inherent integrity and accuracy of the word,” I apologize. Old ways of thinking still pop up now and again. It’s great to be able to discuss doctrine without everyone needing to be “like minded.” I enjoyed reading your explanations of verses 16-19, especially verse 19. Fear temporarily robbed Peter of this faith when he later denied knowing Jesus, but this faith was restored in him when he got to be with the resurrected Jesus and see his ascension and later on receive the gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. What great things he went on to do as shown in the book of Acts. 2 Tim. 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God a may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NIV) 2 Timothy repeats the truth in 2 Peter 1:20-21 on how or by what means the scriptures were written, both OT and NT. I think 2 Peter’s use of the word “prophecy” twice as well as the word “prophets” connect it to the “prophetic message” in verse 19. If this prophetic message refers to the OT only, then 2 Timothy covers it all - both OT and NT.