Charity

Hi T-Bone, I know the practice of the “renewed mind” was seriously distorted in twi, but I wanted to bring it up since I recently saw a connection between the mind and the holy spirit while reading Ephesians. Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Usually when I think of being strong, I interpreted it as physical strength. However, Paul is connecting all of them together - strength, power, spirit, inner being and Christ dwelling in our hearts. Since each of them have to do with the mind (i.e., our cerebrum), it all comes back to the "renewed mind." After the mind games played in twi (especially in the corps) and the absent Christ fiasco, what do you and others think and feel about the renewed mind doctrine?

I'n not sure I understand. Did you believe his organization to be a cult at the time? Was it based on the fact that because it wasn't twi, that it was inferior?

Thanks to all the posters on this thread who can read through Mike's posts/crap and speak directly to what he's doing and saying. My head just wants to explode when I read them. Your work to power wash such ramblings is good for one's mental health .

I know Kenneth Copeland has been mentioned on GSC before. He was the first preacher I started following shortly after leaving twi because of his teachings being similar to vp. I didn't stick with him for long though. He has a net worth of $300 million plus a private jet. Here is a quote from his website "How to Present Your Tithe to Jesus." (underlining is mine) The 3 paragraphs in italics are the end part of this "confession in faith." If you’re ready to take your tithing to the next level, present your tithe to Jesus by speaking this confession in faith: Jesus, as my Lord and High Priest, I bring the firstfruits of my income, which You have given me. I expect You to set it before the Father and worship Him with it. I rejoice in all the good which You have given to me and my household. I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God and have done according to all that You have commanded me. Now look down from heaven, Your holy habitation, and bless me, Your son and servant, according to Your riches in glory. Bless my job and the work of my hands as You have promised in Your Word. I declare THE BLESSING is pouring out, and there’s not enough room to receive it! God, You have rebuked the devourer for my sake. The work of my hands will not be destroyed and come to nothing. Today, I am experiencing God’s supernatural increase, and I walk in it by faith. I worship You, Lord, and I call it done, in Jesus’ Name. When you take the time to stop and honor the Lord with your tithe—offering it to Him with prayer, thanksgiving and honor—you will see a powerful change in both your relationship with the Lord and your faith for finances. Don’t let the devil rob you of the blessing that comes from tithing. The windows of heaven are open over you in Jesus’ Name! I don't know anything about how he runs his organization, how hierarchical it is, but based on the name of your thread and the fact he is so big in the faith movement, it probably is and so much more. Well, since his treasure/reward is here down on earth, I'm suspecting there won't be any for him in heaven.

I edited my post to highlight the last paragraph.

Sorry OldSkool, I did not mean for my last post to be attached as a reply to what you had said.

Raf writes the following about Part II: What We Believe = What We Are (from the Blue Book) In the Greek, "faith" and "believing" are the same word. But in English, they are different words. The distinction in English is this: "Believing" places the emphasis on the mental action of the person who believes. "Faith" places the emphasis outside the person who believes and onto the person or thing that is believed. For years we called ourselves "believers." The emphasis was on us. It would be wonderful if we also called ourselves "faithful" so that the emphasis could once again be placed on the One in whom we have faith: God. It is not "the law of believing" that controls the "abundant life." It is the Faithfulness of God to His Word that controls the abundant life. If God was not faithful to His Word, then we could BELIEVE His Word all we want, and it would profit us nothing. Note: Raf uses the context of John 10:10 shortly afterward to redine vp's definition of "abundant life." Obviously, vp never said it was the law of “faith” since faith “places the emphasis outside the person who believes.” The purpose of calling it the law of “believing” is to totally put the focus on us, the believer. Therefore, in twi, not only is Jesus demoted below God, but according to the law of believing (which we’re supposed to have 24/7), God is demoted below us. A double whammy .

My knowledge on this topic is limited to what I have read on GSC. Among the volumes that have been written about how twi has not strayed away from vp, I think I remember reading about a few changes they've made. Have the sexual crimes and abuse stopped just because people someone say it has? Just as in vp days, there's no way of knowing unless victims come forward. It's hard to remember which thread I read this on but recently there was a post that people taking the advanced class are now allowed to have a mortgage. I'll give this some thought. Now if the poster who bets his life on the accuracy and authority of the written PFAL collaterals and still has a connection with the local fellowships of the newest version of twi can give specific examples only about this topic, that might prove helpful. What are the odds for betting on that happening?

What you said above has become my benchmark since coming to GSC. Googles definition of benchmark is " a standard or point of reference against which things may be compared or assessed. Now I attempt to look for Jesus' authority and directives in everything I read in the Bible and what I read on here. It's what's absent in knowing about Jesus only in my mind. It's what's present in knowing Jesus both from the scriptures and from his spirit living in me.

Thanks OldSkool for pointing out from the word what it means to have Christ in us. Along with what you shared, God uses the word riches to describe the wealth of glorious truths involved in having Christ in us. Col 1:27 “To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Reflecting on this brought to mind what I wrote in a previous post how ‘Christ in you…falls flat.’ My saying this tarnished the glory of having Christ in you in a way that I did not intend. The point I was trying to make is that in order to be transformed into becoming more like Christ, we need to renew our minds not only to the scriptures that describe the nature of Christ being in us but also to the scriptures that teaches Christ living in us. Gal 2:20 says, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” That verb “lives” is in the active voice. I learned of the former when I was in twi, but for me now, it's the learning of the latter that is making the difference in my life. What does it mean that Christ lives in us? One way is to see that just as Jesus interacted with his apostles when he lived with them (shown in the Gospels), he also interacts with us now because lives in us (shown in the Epistles). It's a two-way relationship and fellowship they shared with each other.

Great - I got the bathwater link from OldSkool. Thanks for all the info!

Is this it? https://web.archive.org/web/20030713171917/http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/10Blue2.htm

3 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, I dwell in, settle in, am established in (permanently), inhabit. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. In Ephesians 3:2 Paul talks about the administration of God’s grace which he reveals in vs. 3 is the mystery. He goes on to talk about the mystery in vs. 4 (the mystery of Christ), vs. 6 and vs. 9 (the administration of this mystery). Verse 6 explains, This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. I understand that one of the main problems with the "administration" doctrine is that vp used it to teach "to whom it's written" which reduced the applicable portion of the Bible to just the Church epistles. Rev 10:7 above talks about how the mystery of God should be finished. I don't understand how this verse is a problem for the administration of Grace concept which I assume is a reference to Eph 32:2. Can you explain more about what you meant. Thanks, Charity

Hi there, I remember vp talking about "Christ in you" in the class, but I don't remember much about how he taught it. Regardless, the problem is if he taught it one way at a certain place and time doesn't mean he didn't screw it up when teaching it at a different place and time. You say that vp did not ignore that Christ is present through the spirit but don't you think that his work on the holy spirit field is filled with errors? I'm pretty sure I know how you feel about the issue of "speaking in tongues" that comes up at the end of session 12. The "Christ in you" doctrine is great when you're thinking, "Yeah! We have his righteousness!, his holiness!, his boldness!" or "Heh, we can do all things because it's Christ in us!," but imo it falls flat on its face if you don't understand how Christ's spirit works in you. According to vp's "great principle," we operate (work) the spirit which I and others on GSC believe is flat out wrong. (You can check it out on the "Great Principle Whitewashed?" thread if you haven't already.) Like you've done with the blue book, have you reviewed vp's writings about the spirit (which is the Christ in us) to work out what you believed was right or wrong with what he taught? If you've written about it, I'd be very interested in reading it.

Hi Raf, thanks for the intro - it's a pleasure to write to you. I have seen your posts on a few older threads. Within the past two days, I discovered two of them where you and others were often quite entertaining while discussing the topics. They are https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/2486-if-raf-were-the-devil/ https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4305-are-grease-spotters-possessed/ I'd really like to read the two threads you mentioned above. Are you able to post where they are to make it easier to access them? If you can, great! Now I'm off to reply to one of your other posts.

No Mike, they are not pretty much the same - they have different meanings. Fellowship is to share fully and relationship is how two people are connected. All fellowships require a relationship (husband/wife; parent/child) but not all relationships require fellowship (an estranged brother; tenant-landlord; employer/employee). Our relationship with Jesus is that he is forever our Lord, our Savior, our brother, our advocate, our teacher, etc. Our fellowship with him is 24/7, loving, private, trusting, involves sharing and communicating, etc. When I talk about having a personal relationship or personal fellowship with Jesus, I mean it's just between the two of us and includes the above connections and qualities.

Mike, my original post was about having personal fellowship with Christ because 1 John 1:3 is about fellowship. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son. You immediately changed it in your reply to a personal relationship with him. We have to go back to the word fellowship. I think I remember something from pfal that says "fellowship" is the Greek word "koinónia" which meant sharing fully. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sharing requires two or more people. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines fellowship as "companionship" and companionship requires companions companions requires two or more people. Do you need to see scriptures that demonstrate this sharing or companionship that 1 John says they had with the Father and his son?

That is a great suggestion. Maybe Mike would be able to connect to this. So just as he walks and talks with twi leaders, he does the same with his Lord and Savior. But this is impossible unless one gets rid of the "great principle" in their lives.

What kind of relationship did the writers of the New Testament have with Jesus that enabled them to write these books?

Relax Mike, I was using the word "personal" as meaning intimate. Intimate is a synonym for the word personal. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, "intimate" has several meanings. Here are a few: 1a : marked by a warm friendship developing through long association intimate friends 2: of a very personal or private nature intimate secrets 3: marked by very close association, contact, or familiarity intimate knowledge of the law Does that make more sense to you? If not, I can explain.

I agree that those phrases could be seen as being radical. In reality, I don’t think “their spiritual power” amounts to more than a tap on the shoulder. Here's another phrase that stands out to me: “First and foremost, we each enjoy the fellowship with our heavenly Father. Then in God’s household we enjoy the fellowship of one another AS FAITHFUL FOLLOWERS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST who are eager to stand with resolve, ready to help one another, ready to pray with and for one another, and ready to prevail with power from on high. From: Fellowship - The Way International This phrase could explain why they left Christ out of their first sentence. It ties in with their "you replace the absent Christ" doctrine. The phrase "as faithful followers of our Lord Jesus Christ" sounds so Christian-like yet in this case, I think twi corruptly uses these words to justify how they replace the absent Christ here on earth. So if each one replaces the absent Christ, then by simply having fellowship with one another, they can argue they are having fellowship with Christ. It's a cunningly devised fable in order to corrupt the meaning of Christianity which is to have personal fellowship with Christ himself.

You're welcome. Ask them what they think about my revision. They can use it if they want, it's not copyrighted and I won't ask for royalties.

https://www.theway.org/about-us/fellowship/ Here's the website so you can find out for yourself. You'll see Jesus is mentioned only that one time. https://www.theway.org/about-us/fellowship/ No wonder I still feel embarrassed to mention Jesus when talking to someone about God. While in twi, I learned that compared to God, Jesus was a pipsqueak.

The following was on the "Fellowship" page of twi's website: “First and foremost, we each enjoy the fellowship with our heavenly Father. Then in God’s household we enjoy the fellowship of one another as faithful followers of our Lord Jesus Christ who are eager to stand with resolve, ready to help one another, ready to pray with and for one another, and ready to prevail with power from on high. This is not the order for fellowship as clearly shown in 1 John 1:3-4. Verse 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father AND with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete. First and foremost, our fellowship is with both God and Jesus Christ. Once again, twi gives Jesus a demotion which means a reduction in rank and status. It's so unbelievable and yet so boldy stated. How's this instead: First and foremost, our fellowship is with both God and Jesus Christ our Lord through whom we are able to stand with resolve and be ready to help one another, pray with and for one another and prevail with power from on high as we fellowship together in God's household. The difference is placing the focus on God and Jesus Christ instead of the believer.

One more thing... I found the book, Jesus Christ Our Passover, very moving to read. I saw in painful detail of all that Jesus went through which was then followed by being very touched by his immense love for us as shown by willingly becoming our Passover lamb. It blessed me so much at the time that I wrote a children's version of the book for my son. So I believe the doctrine about the purpose of Jesus' ministry, his death and his resurrection were taught in that book. However, the sad part was that for the time I was in twi both before and even after reading Jesus Christ Our Passover, I don't remember being taught the value and importance of having a relationship with him. Neither did I see one being modeled by the leaders I'd known.