Charity

Yes, but that's not what the "slogan" says. If you have to add conditions in order for "all 9 all the time" to be true, then the slogan is untrue and shouldn't be used (imo).

T-Bone, you wrote above, "so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do." The fact that Paul's prayer is part of the scripture in Ephesians 1 seems to tell me that this stuff can happen again. What Paul prays for the church later in chapter 3 would certainly apply to us today. 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. I think the idea Mike had for this thread - the scarcity of miracles - is worth pondering.

The reason I posted these verses is because of how they lead up to verses 19-23. Verse 19 talks of the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead… I believe these verses are referring to God’s miraculous power to us-ward who believe. Do these verses hold at least one of the keys as to why there might be a scarcity of miracles as opposed to God having a budget and there being double doors? I don’t know – I’m only asking the question to which I'd really like to know the answer. (It does help to read all the verses that come before verse 16. They speak of at least 10 things God has already done for us as believers in Christ.)

I think of Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1 often and wonder how it can become a reality in our lives. 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I'm just going to focus on this part of your sentence that "signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor." Wasn't it vp who taught that believers can operate all 9 all the time? If this was true then doesn't it contradict what you are sharing now about "the tight budget that God limits Himself to?" How do you reconcile the two?

I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time. My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were. When I began to spend time on GSC, beginning with the Absent Christ thread, I began to see how much of twi's doctrine on the holy spirit field, the law of believing and the "word takes the place of the absent Christ" was inaccurate and had crippled my walk with Christ. It's only been four months and now I've started to fellowship with Christians in a church where I feel at home. A lot of what I'm seeing there lines up with what I've learned on GSC. The important point to realize is that for me, I needed to begin having fellowship with Christ before I could fellowship with others who belong in his body outside of twi. What helped me to connect with my Lord was posting on GSC so the believers there could show from scripture how it is God's will that we have fellowship with Christ. Once I understood that and I could open the door to receiving him, he went from being someone I knew about in my head to being someone alive in my life. I still read and send posts on GSC so I can continue learning and maybe help others as I've been helped.

all our hearts, soul, mind and strength (that covers with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength I think you're right - vp probably did teach Mark 12:30 but by not teaching that we were to love Jesus Christ in the same manner, I think they left out an imperative part of God's will when teaching about it in pfal. with all our heart - 2588 kardía – heart; the center and seat of spiritual life, "the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors" with all our soul - psuché: breath, the soul (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality. with all our mind - 1271 diánoia (from 1223 /diá, "thoroughly, from side-to-side," which intensifies 3539 /noiéō, "to use the mind," from 3563 /noús, "mind") – properly, movement from one side (of an issue) to the other to reach balanced-conclusions; full-orbed reasoning (= critical thinking), i.e. dialectical thinking that literally reaches "across to the other side" (of a matter). with all our strength - 479 ischus: strength, might (from the Gk root is, "force" and 2192/exō, "have") – properly, force to overcoming immediate resistance.

twi's website says the following about their new pfal class, "The class sessions unfold the Word of God as the will of God to answer such crucial questions as: 1. How can I know what God’s will is for my life?" (Wasn't this also on the old green sign up card?) Here are a couple of questions and answers. 1) What is the will of God concerning our love for Him? Mark 12:29-31 is one place that gives an answer: Mark 12:29-31 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” 2) What is the will of God concerning our love for Christ Jesus? 1 John 5:1 - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. If we are to love God according to Mark 12:30 and if we are to pass this love onto His son as in 1 John 5:1, then we are to love Christ with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength (that covers the gamut). This is the will of God. Does the pfal class teach this? Does the ministry of twi consistently teach and practice this? IMHO and . The Way International has utterly failed to come through on their #1 pfal claim concerning the #1 will of God. Has this affected our lives? Of course it has. Because of this broken promise, followers of twi cannot experience what Paul prays for us in Ephesians 3. Ephesians 3:16-19 – 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. This is a lot bigger than having a head knowledge of what Christ has done for us.

Thanks Colshevik - I'll check it out.

It's interesting how that works. Just yesterday, my husband read the following to me from Gabor Mate's book the Myth of Normal (Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture). He said it reminded him of your last president and I said it reminded me of wierwille. "The negative view of self may not always penetrate conscious awareness and may even masquerade as its opposite: high self-regard. Some people encase themselves in an armored coat of grandiosity and denial of any shortcomings so as not to feel that enervating shame. That self-puffery is as sure a manifestation of self-loathing as is abject self-deprecation, albeit a much more normalized one. It is a marker of our culture's insanity that certain individuals who flee from shame into a shameless narcissism may even achieve great social, economic, and political status and success." Where he got his negative view of self and when did he started developing it would be interesting to know although I can understand many thinking "who cares." It doesn't change the fact that he was a faker and a bait switcher and a liar who was able to convince people they were living the more than abundant life he promised pfal would give then when in reality they weren't.

Instead of overcoming worry and fear which the pfal class was promised to do for us, Twi used a lot of fear and humiliation to keep people from leaving or disagreeing with them. From what I've read, many leaders became like stalkers - always keeping their 'i's" on other leaders lower on the totem pole which caused them to keep having to look over their shoulders. When people do leave, many take their waybrain with them so it takes a long to very long time to become free of it. That's the cult's definition of leadership. Christ is the opposite of every cultish thing about twi so turning to him is a whole different experience that can bring wholeness. He is always with us, but in a loving way. He knows instantly when we are having mental health issues because he dwells in our hearts/minds. He has empathy for us because he understands what we're going through since he was tempted in all ways like we are. He works in us so we can overcome whatever our struggles are (unlike twi's way of just telling people to "renew your mind" or "you're not believing"). We are in the right place to overcome worry and fear when we turn to Christ.

Anyone who reads this thread will see how Mike's many locked-in beliefs have been dealt with so why continue to spend any more time correcting him? As for me and my computer, we're done. (No matter what that piece of wise advice claims we should never do - "never say never.")

That can send you a few subliminal and not so subliminal messages your way.

I'm older now yet I still find myself doing . In fact, I'm doing it a lot more now that I'm over 60. Can you share more about what you mean?

Gold idea Rocky. There's another step if one wishes to use it. That's where you share a suggestion that you think might be helpful such as, "It would help if you/we could..." It's just a way of expressing what one needs. The key is to ask respectfully instead of insisting such action must happen which would then hint back to "it's all your fault so you need to fix it".

I know from experience what it's like to deal with mental health issues such as depression and anxiety. The recommended treatment for me has been the use of both medication and therapy although an either/or option can work as well for others. It's all very individualized. Medication is for chemical imbalances in the brain and therapy deals with the thoughts and feelings in the mind. I find having knowledge of how our brains work is helpful as well. A lot of progress has been made in the area of neuroplasticity which is the brain's ability to change, reorganize, or grow neural networks. Terms that help to define it are having a "growth mindset" and "rewiring the brain" so habitual behaviors can be changed. This is a website that explains it in more detail. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-brain-plasticity-2794886 Then there's the spiritual side of healing which is the most powerful of all but only if you have sound doctrine. Unsound doctrine can make matters worse because on top of everything you're already going through, you can't understand why you're not really getting better even though you're doing everything twi tells you to like doing retemories and applying the law of believing (as mentioned above) and I'll add having a "renewed mind." I found that my symptoms "improved" but eventually came to realize that spiritually I was merely standing on sand instead of a rock (you know what happens when the wind and rain beat on each) . So like OldSkool and penguin2, I too am working out my salvation because doing so can improve mental health. My main issue is learning how to stop trusting in my own works to bring about deliverance but to instead trust God to do the healing because of His faithfulness in keeping His promises. My goal is have a greater understanding of the verses below which speak of God, Christ, spirit, the mind, power, strength and trust. Knowing how all these work together would be life changing (Bravo God! ). Ephesians 1:18-19 I pray that the eyes of your heart (mind) may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe (trust). Ephesians 3:16-17 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being (mind), 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Looking forward to learning more from this thread (thanks OldSkool for starting it)!

Boy you are devious. Did you not read points 2 & 3? Did I mention anything about "seeking Jesus" being emphasized. It was quite the opposite.

1. You're locked into the pfal perspective. (no point therefore in replying to vp's errant "church of the bride" teaching) 2. You complain there's not enough variety in the points of view being posted on GSC. (and you seem to have a strong dislike for the ones here who do post their opinions) 3. You feel you are being victimized here. So why are you here if not for the reasons Skyrider laid out in his post yesterday? Why don't you find somewhere else to post where it would be more satisfying to you?

And yet here you are 20 years later.

For me no for three reasons: 1. After taking the pfal class, I don't remember hearing the phrase, the Absent Christ, often enough for me to notice he was absent. 2. I was too busy noticing what twi was telling me I needed to believe and do. 3. I felt I was a good believer because I did most of the things I was told I needed to do. The only reason I didn't go into the Corps when I wanted to was because I was too nervous about asking people to sponsor me. So basically the only longing in my mind was to carry out #3. Now for people like Mike who opening talk about the Absent Christ, they don't seem to miss him because they have the word and the ministry of reconciliation to replace the absent Christ. (see #2).

What future are you talking about? Is this after Christ comes to gather the church together to meet him in the air? If so, why would Christ be disciplining them and giving them a chance to repent - wouldn't it be too late for them by this time? His invitation to sup with them and they with him is totally dependent on them hearing his voice and opening the door. Would that be something he would offer the church in Laodicea after the gathering together? I think his invitation is an incentive for them to repent before he comes to gather them. I didn't mention the context for Rev 3:20 before because I wanted to keep the post short. But here it is now. 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 **I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. 21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ** "I counsel you" is in the present indicative active - The fact that it is the present tense means it is happening now. The indicative is a mood of assertion or presentation of certainty (a fact). The active voice occurs when the action is being performed by the subject (who is Christ). I don't see anything futuristic about these verses.

I think people who have a relationship with Christ - the ones who know him and not just about him - would have no interest in staying long or at all if they were approached by someone in twi. Since they would already be experiencing Christ's love, they wouldn't be so susceptible to all the "love bombing." And if they were in the habit of checking with Christ before making decisions, I doubt very much that Christ would give them the go ahead to hang out with this group. So they were the safe ones. That leaves people who either don't know Christ at all or if they do, didn't have Christ dwelling in their hearts in which case I think it would be difficult for him to warn them away from twi. Instead, they could easily be attracted to what twi offered and once hooked, remain for a long time. I was one of those people. The off-putting part was that I did think God had led me to twi because I was messed up and was seeking His help. But then again, because of my Catholic upbringing, all I knew about God was how guilty I felt around Him all the time. That's where the love bombing and twi's definition of standing righteous before God sucked me in big time.

What's so sad is that you can't see that the real Jesus wants to have this lovy-dovy, chatty relationship with you. It's true - it's even in the Bible! Remember that Starbucks scene with Jesus you brought up on this thread or a different one. I found this website titled Why “Christ Lives in Me” is Good News which actually has it. The article begins like this: “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me (Gal. 2:20). For Paul to say, “Christ lives in me” is a marvelous statement of what it means to be a Christian. The Son of God can move in as the honored guest in your soul. Think about how the Bible puts this: “I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me” (Rev. 3:20). If you have the idea that Christian faith is about believing in Christ from a distance, think again. Christ says, “I am knocking on the door of your heart. I want to come in. I want to settle into a booth with you, and for the two of us to share breakfast, lunch, and dinner together. That’s the relationship I want with you. And that is why I stand at the door and knock.” Only I would think of a cozier place for this than Starbucks. I read or heard somewhere that eating together in that culture took on a more intimate meaning. Other posters might know more about this. So what do you say Mike? https://openthebible.org/article/christ-lives-in-me-is-good-news/

What's this "cloak" about - I've heard it mentioned a few times.

Thanks T-Bone, Your list shows how it's hard to take what Mike says seriously especially when it's in response to posts where scriptures are actually given.