Charity

It is and just as the new birth is through the work of the holy spirit so is our renewal - neither is through any work of our own.

I totally agree and it makes me think of how the spirit of truth is compared to the wind that blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes and whither it goes: (John 3:8)

I think she can if she is willing and free to question her already-formed schemas existing in her head and when she does, it will bring her back to being that little child again - to have the same awe, wonder and love to learn and discover something new about what she had previously thought. This is why your posts have struck a chord with me. Since coming to GSC and realizing the truth about the "absent Christ" doctrine which was filed away in my waybrain, it has become like being a child again in learning what the scriptures say about Christ. I want very much to hold onto the awe and wonder that comes with seeing something old in a new light especially when the new is so much greater than the old!

When I replied with "Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there," it was based on what you wrote in reply to the following statements of Mike's: “What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts? There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against. We all gotta master SOMETHING.” I didn't word my question quite right but what I was asking is whether being open to all kinds of knowledge is preferable to Mike's need to have one "true" belief system which in his case is totally based on what one man taught (even though he says he studied if for himself). From what you wrote above, I now see you are referring to all human knowledge not being a source of truth. Even if the Bible is the truth, the way any man reads and interprets it cannot be considered as truth. Is there such a thing as "truth" or even a need for "truth?" Is it just about our having the freedom to have our own thoughts concerning what we see and hear, but not about our thoughts being taken as a "source of truth?"

I really want to understand what you are saying because I love your reference to the little child. So I'll take it one step at a time and ask if the following is along the lines of you are asking. When a child with no previous knowledge of squirrels playing in a tree sees this happening for the first time, what does she make of it for herself? I agree there is a wonderful freedom for her to be able to do this. http://web.mit.edu/pankin/www/Schema_Theory_and_Concept_Formation.pdf The problem is that our brains are designed that any new information we take in through our five senses is assimilated by what we already know. This is based on the schema theory which I haven’t thought about for quite a while. So even for that child seeing squirrels chasing each other in a tree for the first time, her brain will automatically connect that new information to any schemas it already holds about animals or trees or whatever is similar to what she is presently seeing. If the schemas in her brain are a result of what others have told her about such things, then her present thoughts will not be purely her own. This applies to all of us at all ages. Does this relate at all to what you are saying?

I find what you are saying intriguing. Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there?

The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because they knew he was doing many miracles and if they did nothing, they feared that all men would come to believe in him and the Romans would then come and take away both their place and nation (John 11:47-48). Likewise, I think vp saw the love and praise young people had for Jesus and wanted that love and praise all for himself. So he cunningly demoted, demeaned and devalued Jesus in his teachings and especially his programs so that Christ no longer lived in our lives (i.e., he was basically dead to us) and vp was then able to maintain his lordship in his kingdom that was called twi. That was my experience for the years I was involved in twi and remained my experience for decades later until very recently.

I just finished reading the introduction of Adam: God's Beloved. It's so extraordinary in nature - I can't wait to ready it. Thank you so much for mentioning it.

On the God's Budget thread,Nathan_Jr recently wrote: "It's merely a seductive, novel, private interpretation, a pretension, designed to impress the dull mind. Like four crucified." and T-Bone wrote: "Jesus Christ is found everywhere in “the Word”. Who is teaching us “the Word”? Why wierwille , of course. It’s just another way to keep fans interested. wierwille used the topic of Jesus Christ like window dressing. It’s the bait of bait-and-switch. “Want to know more about Jesus Christ? Just come into my store - we have whatever you could want or need.” Do you think this is what motivated vp to change the armor of God to being athletic in nature - that he needed something new to captivate his audience so they would continue to believe he's this MOG doing heavy biblical research? Did he (just for once) give an explanation for why this needed to be done? In other words, what was in it for him to this? Did he somehow think we would become more spiritual if we were AOS instead of a soldier of God? It slays me how when I start to ask questions how often a possible answer pops into my head - like couldn't I have remembered this before typing to save everyone a bunch of time . Anyways, I do remember hearing that he did it because he didn't think being a soldier fit in with the N.T. - that it's too O.T.-like or something along those lines. As a result he butchered up the Greek to prove he was right. Somehow though, I think what Nathan_J and T-Bone said above still applies.

Thanks for your post! You're right - the term "the absent Christ" is another one (among many) totally made up by vp and was used to place himself and twi as the head of the body. A couple of things came to mind after reading what you wrote which I'll share on the AOS thread and a new one.

I'm thinking it was probably the old bait and switch trick especially with the young people from the Jesus movement coming to twi.

Thanks Waysider and Rocky. I read the posts on the Red Thread. So it would seem that this teaching by vp which focused on Jesus was well received in the early 70's but then somewhere along the line, vp decided the Written Word would take the place of Christ since he was "absent." Does anyone remember how this transition took place?

Mike, didn't vp say at some point that Jesus Christ is the red thread in the Bible? I know I heard it somewhere. In Swedish and other Nordic and European countries, the expression “red thread” refers to the core idea or theme of something. They talk about it as the “throughline” that makes it all make sense. (Tamsen Webster) Would there have even been a need for scripture if Adam and Eve had not sinned? Everything after Genesis 3 is about God preparing for the first coming of the Messiah, the Gospels are awesome records of how God and Jesus were one in purpose to bring about our redemption, and the remainder of scripture is still all about God and Jesus being one in purpose working in us with God's plan being fully completed in the end times. It brings us full circle back to the Garden of Eden. If you are reading the Bible, why would you have to ask those 3 questions? How did the red thread lose it's meaning and power for you?

And before you ask Mike how I could possibly know what's going on in the lives of Christians all around the world, it's because what he's doing in my life now is a heck of a lot more than what Christ was able to do when I was in twi. Let the Word have the first and last word on this: Ephesians 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Do you think the word "know" is a head or book knowledge only? with all saints does not mean just the household of twi

Mike, I believe you are on a lost island when it concerns Jesus Christ. You have NO idea what awesome things he is doing in the lives of Christians all around the world and you will probably never know until Christ returns (or you go for a walk on the road to Damascus.) Then the eyes of your understanding will be finally opened and you'll have to say .

Just caught your post T-Bone as I was about to get up from my computer. Thanks for writing it - your humor is very helpful when one has to deal with how a cult-leader fvcks with your belief system leaving unresolved ramifications in its wake.

Thanks T-Bone, My daughter has coped fairly well over the years although there have been times when she's cried her heart out when she couldn't get the help that Cameron needed or from sheer exhaustion because of his waking up for long periods of time in the night. She has an online support group with mothers who have a child with the same genetic disorder as Cameron. Through it all though she has consistently been his comforter, advocate, nurse and admirer as he reaches each milestone, big or small. It's an awesome privilege to know, love and care for a child with special needs and the circle of support given to these wonderful caretakers (wherever it may come come) is priceless. Being with my grandson has brought me closer to God as I learn to trust in His goodness and love for all His children. BTW, my daughter took her daughter to see the movie Champions last week and they loved it.

Because of my grandson's non-verbal autism, I want to understand healing more than what I presently do. So I've been looking into prayer, trust, healing, etc. and in the meantime, I know both God and Christ Jesus are watching over him as he continues to grow and learn.

again T-Bone, 2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables 2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. I used to wonder how anyone could just sit around and develop a long-range plan to develop cunningly devised fables and then pass them off as being God's will for His people. There’s a lot of intent involved here. Maybe they didn't start out wanting to be deceivers but in the end 2 Peter 2:3 says they did it because of their greed. Greed, like pride, is a quicksand-like trap that pulls people deeper and deeper into darkness. Because of vp's pride and greed, I don't want to scavenge through his writings searching for bits of "truth" here and there. When presented with one of his writings or a twi article, I will do my best to point out destructive heresies but I'm not saying my conclusions are the end all and be all. So everyone is free to question anything I post or take it all with a grain of salt. In my earlier post, I wrote, "I'm not saying it's wrong to have a desire to study scripture. I'm saying that I needed to balance this with simply reading the scriptures for the joy of it and for what God wants me to see and learn from them." Adding to this, I'm also wanting to first read what is written a couple of times before using Bible Hub, interlinears, commentaries, etc. to help with my understanding as you pointed out and to see "what other inspired Christians in the body of Christ think" as Chockfull said. So in this context, I do plan on keeping both the baby (the great truths of the Bible) and the bath water (hermeneutical tools) with the hope of keeping everything clean (2 Timothy 2:15).

I agree Chockfull. When vs 24 says, “So run that ye may obtain,” I understand it means we are to run like an athlete runs. When vp coined the term “athletes of the spirit” and began to teach this is what we were, I had no problem with it at the time. Even his other thought-up phrases like the law of believing, the great principle and the absent Christ sounded good to me back then even though none of them were in the Word. It wasn’t until I became a member last year on GSC that I began to see how completely inaccurate these phrases (and the doctrine attached to them) were and how they took a lot of truth and power away from me as a believer. I think the phrase “AoS” was the beginning of a slippery slope that led to his screwed-up interpretation of the armor of God in Ephesians 6. Another phrase vp invented was “sonship rights” where both the phrase and the word “rights” itself is not written in the Scriptures (KJV). I know when we were born again, we received the gift of holy spirit and became the children of God. I know the word says we have been redeemed, sanctified, justified, made righteous and given the ministry of reconciliation. But did vp’s term of sonship rights become another slippery slope which allowed vp to become prideful and use the righteousness given to us by God as an excuse to sin? Did others follow his lead? By using the word “rights” which is nowhere in the Bible, it was easy for vp to switch over to what a right actually is - a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way, and an entitlement is the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. These words have nothing to do with our relationship with God since it’s only through God's love, mercy and grace and the obedience of His son that we became redeemed, justified, sanctified and made righteous. That’s why I agree with OldSkool to just read what is written. It's a way to avoid making up one's own terminology so we have a better chance of remaining on solid ground biblically. (Mike has been confronted with this many times.)

I agree, the context of the chapter for each of the verses contain so many gems about who we are, what we have and what we can do as children of God. It is far, far greater than anything that can be found in twi. And Twinky, it's great to have runners when you want to with joy or just for the heck of it jumping.

This is the last paragraph in twi’s article. “We have seen some of the Greek athletic terminology that God used to describe our walk as His children. Just like the athletes who competed in the Greek games or the figure skaters of today who train and compete physically, we choose to compete spiritually as God’s children. We train ourselves to exercise self-control mentally and physically, focusing our actions on those things that help us to obtain heavenly rewards. We press toward the finish line, striving to win in the spiritual competition. We are spiritual athletes for God.” There is nothing in the 5 verses that say we are competing like an athlete. Looking again at “I Corinthians 9:24:Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain,” in an athletic race, the athlete is the only one to receive a prize. However, we as Christians are not competing against each other but are striving together so we each can obtain the prize. As for the last sentence in the article, I agree with what OldSkool posted when he showed twi’s website for it: “I thought I would put this out here once again, if for no other reason to bring the truth to light once more that Christians are not athletes of the spirit and it's a fraudulent idea that wierwille forced into scripture and rammed through the research department back in the 80s.” Thanks OldSkool for starting this thread.

The following is a quote and the last verse used in the article “Spiritual Athletes for God: “We can see more of this athletic terminology used in I Corinthians 9:25, which says, “And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.” The second part of this verse makes a comparison between the crowns an athlete receives and what the believers will obtain. Nowhere in that sentence does it say we are an AoS. The first part of the verse has many different translations. Below is a list of them as shown on Bible Hub. - has no athletic terminology - Berean Literal Bible and 6 others Now everyone striving controls himself in all things; then indeed they, that they might receive a perishable crown; but we, an imperishable. These versions above agree with 2 Interlinear bibles where no athletic words are used whatsoever. - in the games - New International Version and 11 others Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever - athletes - New Living Translation and 5 others All athletes are disciplined in their training. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. - athletic contest - International Standard Version and 2 others Everyone who enters an athletic contest practices self-control in everything. They do it to win a wreath that withers away, but we run to win a prize that never fades. - for the mastery - King James Bible and 2 others And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. - for the prize - New King James Version And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.

I'm glad you mentioned this because I had forgotten this aspect of the doctrine. I assume you probably heard it used a lot in the corps. It's great reading about how your perspective has changed from the old to the new. I especially like vs 12 where Paul says he is continuing to press toward his goal to take hold of Christ in his life the way Christ has taken hold of him. It's a beautiful way of saying what our goal as a Christian can be.