Charity

I wrote: "Do you even care what God your heavenly Father and Jesus your Savior and Redeemer must think and feel about what you wrote?" I'm sorry if that's what you and maybe others thought I was trying to do based on my first sentence and my use of the word "degrade." However, when I asked you that question I was thinking more of the hurt they must have felt. I apologize for not making that point clear. As someone who has made the Word the guiding light of your life, it would be inspiring to hear how you feel about: "the most stressful time in Jesus' life according to Luke 22:44 ("And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.") - a time when he puts aside his own will to not be tortured and crucified in the horrific way the OT prophesied it would happen and instead finds the strength in his relationship with His Father to carry out God's will for you (John 3:16,17)"

Where's that vomiting emoji when you need one?

Mike, I personally think this is the lowest I've seen you go. You have taken the most stressful time in Jesus' life according to Luke 22:44 ("And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.") - a time when he puts aside his own will to not be tortured and crucified in the horrific way the OT prophesied it would happen and instead finds the strength in his relationship with His Father to carry out God's will for you (John 3:16,17) and you degrade it with a statement such as "there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.” Do you even care what God your heavenly Father and Jesus your Savior and Redeemer must think and feel about what you wrote?

Hi Rocky, I couldn't remember on which thread you mentioned the book so I did a search and this thread (God's Budget) was near the top of the list. On page 4, there are a few posts from both of us about the book and those were the ones I was thinking of and wanted to find. The "Books" forum I referred to was short for Movies, Music, Books, Art. I've read the first chapter and there were a couple of things she said that I had come across a while back on my study of the brain, stress and depression. I look forward to reading more to see how she explains the legacy of trauma in terms of her work with her patients. You read so many books Rocky. Do you keep notes about them or do you only highlight parts you want to remember?

Changed my mind - sometimes inquiring minds need to take a break .

Your post made me think of CES and their personal prophecy problems which seem similar to what happened at a church Bickle pastored in the late 1980's that became notoriously known as the "Kansas City Prophets." A search brought up the thread "Personal Prophecy in the Way and Christian Educational Services (CES)" - very handy for the inquiring mind .

The book Emotional Inheritance finally became available for pickup at my library. I might bring up some ideas for discussion under the Books forum.

Interesting and worrisome. I wonder what else these two groups have in common .

You ask some very logical questions - hopefully his followers will wake up one morning and do the same . It's funny that a prayer and worship movement wasn't needed to persuade God to bring about the birth of His son but now one is necessary for his return.

IHOP KC is big on God's zeal for Zion and David is mentioned a lot in their scriptures about song and worship. I had to look Zion up because I know zilch about it. The name Zion is often used to describe a place appointed by the Lord where his followers can live and serve God. Scripture refers to Zion as the “City of Holiness” and a “city of refuge” where the Lord protects his people from the evils in the world. https://www.zionponderosa.com/blog/2014/06/the-hidden-meaning-behind-the-zion-name/ Zion, in the Old Testament, the easternmost of the two hills of ancient Jerusalem. It was the site of the Jebusite city captured by David, king of Israel and Judah, in the 10th century bc (2 Samuel 5:6–9) and established by him as his royal capital. (Encyclopedia Britannica)

You know, it wasn't so much Bickle's belief about the end times being what he claims they would be. I was hoping to see how he was misapplying scripture to say the end times were near (possibly during the next generation) and since you've already studied about the topic in general, I'd take a shortcut and ask you . Thanks again for your responses. Where I had gone overboard (without wearing a life jacket) was in the cult he built upon this doctrine. You can see he's still at it in my earlier post about this upcoming "prayer for Israel" in May. I agree with OldSkool on there being a gathering together but like you say, we'll know for sure when it all plays out so in the meantime, we not only get to work on being strong in the Lord and in the power of his might but we also get to play dress up (seriously you know, put on the full armor of God...). P.S. Thankfully, I was able to climb back into the boat!

I hate to keep the focus on Bickle and IHOP but I just accidentally came across the newest Bickle event on this website: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsxmE21JwEs Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and other leaders call for 300 radical young adults to join 21 days of prayer and fasting in Kansas City this May. They will be praying during the NightWatch (12–6am), having housing and basic food (i.e. Daniel fast meals) provided. "We’re calling 300 young adults to come and be a part of this historic reality that's happening globally," Mike says. Why: To stand in the gap for Israel and God’s purposes during the 21-day global fast, May 7–28, and on the global day of prayer May 28 for Israel In a letter Mike Bickle sent to the Church, he writes: The Isaiah 62 Global Solemn Assembly 21-Day Fast (May 7-28, 2023) A collaboration of many ministries across the nations, including Lou Engle, Jason Hubbard, and Mike Bickle, is calling 100,000 intercessors to participate in a global solemn assembly (May 7-28) to fast and pray for the Lord’s purposes for Israel and to contend for the Lord to raise up 100 million intercessors for Israel according to His promise in Isaiah 62:6-7 sovereignly to “set,” “appoint,” or “mark” intercessors who will remind the LORD of His promises for Jerusalem until Jesus returns. 6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed [set, KJV] watchmen; all day and all night they will never keep silent. You [intercessors] who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves; 7 And give Him no rest until He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth [in connection to Jesus’ return]. (Isa. 62:6-7, NAS) Israel’s national repentance (Act 3:19) and confession that Jesus is Messiah (Mt. 23:39) is deeply connected to Jesus’ second coming and to life from the dead for the whole earth (Rom. 11:15). In this fast we are exalting the supremacy of Jesus, focusing on the connection of God’s blessing on Jerusalem to fulfilling the Great Commission. We can do so much more together in the “spirit of John 17:21-23” unity. https://www.ihopkc.org/mikebickleisaiah62letter/

Wierwille, the founder of twi, "heard from God", focused on one goal (the rightly divided word over the world), pushed the abundant life to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his classes and leadership programs. Bickle, the founder of IHOP-KC "heard from God," focused on one goal (bringing about the end times), pushed worship and prayer to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his 24/7 prayer room, classes and internship program. Both have people who remain totally committed to the cult's beliefs. Both have people who were hurt and left with some/many needing a long time to heal emotionally and spiritually. For this latter group, ex-followers from both cults have online support groups to help each other with the healing and to warn others of the harmful aspects of their cults. I took what I learned about IHOP very personally because of my own experience and the experiences of others in twi. And maybe because it's only been 5 months since beginning to deal with all things twi, I'm having such a hard time dealing with all things IHOP as it is connected to my involvement in a church that is not like IHOP in their practices but supports Bickle's doctrine all the same. After going through the confusing "should I stay or should I go" scenario for the past couple of weeks, I'm coming to realize that leaving is "the way, the truth and the life" choice to make (gotta love my use of quotation marks !)

Thank you Rocky and T-Bone for your responses. I agree that with twi and IHOP, you had individual people deciding to leave because of their personal experiences. I also agree that when large scale scandals happen as in twi, they can lead to a much greater exodus including those people who were thinking of leaving but weren't yet convinced to do so.

There's no fault on your part T-Bone. I shared a bit of the doctrine with you because you have studied the subject for quite a while and I was interested in how it compared with what you've learned so far. Understanding, however, how vp's doctrinal errors (the law of believing, the absent Christ, the great principle, etc.) caused so much spiritual harm to twi followers is a totally different thing altogether. Similarly, if errors in Bickle's doctrine has anything to do with the hurtful crap going on in his ministry, I would really like to know the connection between the two. However, I can't handle spending any more time researching it - I find it just too toxic .

What did it take for the truth to begin unraveling to get us to where we are with GSC? Did it have to start with the big folks at the top?

There is nothing I've read that speaks of Bickle being a drunken narcissist, abuser, sexual predator or plagiarist like wierwille. What is similar is the harm that IHOP's programs have caused some of their followers. I'm sure IHOP dismisses and argues against what these people have to say just as twi dismisses and argues against what posters here have to say. How any of what's described below is a result of Bickle's doctrine can be researched online. Why any of it is of importance to the readers of GSC - maybe it will help a current or ex-twi follower see what cult-like organizations have in common so they can remove their own rose-colored glasses about twi. Anyway, here are some of the ways IHOP's harm have been described... 1. Page 1 of this thread, especially JavaJane's post. 2. https://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/some-of-my-ihop-red-flags/ 3. Facebook page: RFI (Recovering from IHOP) - is a private group with 147 members where you can request to be a member. It's purpose is: "A safe place for former members of the International House of Prayer to recover, process, vent, and realize they aren't alone in having been manipulated, lied to, used, and traumatized by the place they once thought to be safe. We welcome people from all walks of life, religious beliefs, and political stances." 4. http://www.828ministries.com/Diary/The-Over-Sexualization-of-by-Anthony-Wade-Christianity_God-140604-236.html 5. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-mysterious-death-of-bethany-deaton/ "In 2007, Deaton's religious life took a major turn. He decided to focus on mission work, and he went to Kansas City to attend a national convention put on by a church called the International House of Prayer -- known by the acronym IHOP." 6. https://www.change.org/p/international-house-of-prayer-of-kansas-city-tell-the-truth-about-bethany-deaton-and-micah-moore "Chief among these is prior to Micah's confession, only a few days after Bethany's memorial service, leaders of the International House of Prayer, including Shelley Hundley, Allen and Rachel Hood, and a group known as "Prisoners of Hope" conducted an "exorcism" (they prefer to use the term "deliverance"). Tyler's former community members were gathered together, informed they had demons, were interrogated about their sexuality, and subsequently subjected to hours of exorcism that multiple witnesses attest consisted of yelling, screaming, shouting in "tongues" (an unintelligble prayer language), and people shaking and falling on the floor." "In the ensuing months, IHOP-KC was less than transparent with the case, as a court motion was required to obtain evidence that showed Micah Moore in IHOP-KC's prayer room on their own webstream video no less than 12 times the afternoon of Bethany's death, and that he had signed into class at IHOPU that morning."

Hi T-Bone, Here's one website about Bickle's doctrine about the end times to compare with with you've learned so far. (You might have to copy and paste if you can't click on it to open.) https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/ As a TSFAWTSAS, have you come across a "preacher" who has devised an organization of programs, practices and basic principles of how young Christians are to behave and prepare for the end times they are helping to usher in (using scriptures from OT and Revelation)?

What I see in what you wrote Chockfull is that we were meant to have a relationship with the class - you know the one that replaced our relationship with Christ. It was our lord in that it had power, authority, and influence over our lives. It was our savior in that it saved us from all the wrongly divided word taught in every other church known to mankind since the first century. One more just for the of it - pfal was the way, the truth and the life. The way because of the irony of it being taught by "the way ministry," the truth because of God's 1942 promise to vp and the life because after all, it did promise us a more than abundant life. Now why would anyone want or need an everlasting relationship with Christ after being brainwashed to believe in "the class?

Sorry, I posted the above twice.

After spending over a week reading about Mike Bickle’s doctrines and his International House of Prayer (IHOP), as well as looking at websites which describe IHOP as a cult, my fellowship with Christ and any fruit of the spirit in my life I had took a nosedive. It was only when I realized I needed a break from “all things Bickle” and began reading Philippians that my heart almost instantly became lighter and the vice on my brain loosened. It now makes me wonder though what happens to Christians, especially young ones, when they are fed a steady diet of only one particular food group at the expense of the others. This is what I believe Mike Bickle and his International House of Prayer is doing. His particular food group or focus of scripture is on the end times where he emphasizes the church as being the beloved bride of Christ calling for her bridegroom (based on the Song of Solomon and Revelation 22:17), the role prayer and songs of worship (as in his 24/7 prayer house) play in bringing about the return of Christ; and his plan to build an insatiable hunger in young people to participate in these two aspects of his ministry. This hunger is an extremely emotional one, is deepened by the isolation of his intern program for 18-25 year olds and is heavily fed with prophetic words given by every Tom, Dick and Harry who graduate from his “School of Messengers.” (SOM is for believers who sense a call to be prophetic messengers as voices and light to others.) The point is - it’s not just the errors in his end-time teachings (which for me at this time is mostly based on what others say who have studied his work) but it’s the fact that they overshadow our walk with Christ. It's very similar to how the "upmost" importance of vp's doctrine, drive, push, vision for every twi believer to move the word PFAL over the world encompassed our lives and diminished our relationship with Christ.

The verb "slept" is not in the past tense. When you look at this word in an Interlinear Bible, it is in the perfect participle tense (V-RPM/P) and means "having fallen asleep" (see website below). Therefore this verse is saying, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that died and continue to be dead." (This agrees with the meaning of the word firstfruits.) Perfect Participle conveys a sense of completion and acts as a bridge between the past and the present. It is a completed action (he died) that has lasting or permanent results (he is dead) In other words, it means a completed action shown by the period above (he died) that has lasting or permanent results shown by the (he is dead); it often reflects a state resulting from past action. You form the perfect participle by putting the present participle “having” in front of the past participle. For example: having done, having finished, having read, having spoken. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-20.htm

I will reply about the word "slept" separately. The definition of "firstfruits" as given in Scripture. (The website below talks about 5 Kinds of Firstfruits:) 1. The First Harvest - the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field (Exodus 23:16) 2. Israel - Just as the first and choicest crops were devoted to God, Israel was God’s chosen and set apart people. But the fact that Israel was God’s firstfruits, not His only fruit... (Jeremiah 2:3) 3. Believers - In Romans 16:5 and 1 Corinthians 16:15, the first converts of a particular area were called “the firstfruits.” 4. The Holy Spirit - The Holy Spirit is a foretaste, the first installment of our future glory. He is God’s the pledge of more to come in our resurrection life. (Rom 8:23) 5. Jesus - As the Old Testament firstfruits symbolized and consecrated the entire harvest that was to follow, Christ’s resurrection was the foretaste of the resurrection of all believers yet to come. His resurrection is our assurance that one day all believers will be raised from the dead and will receive new, resurrected bodies. (1 Cor 16:15) https://explorethebible.lifeway.com/blog/adults/5-kinds-of-firstfruits-session-5-john-203-9-1-corinthians-1520-28/

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This is the verse you seem to be referring to in your post above. Just reading what is written, the blue words describe how it will happen, the purple words say when it will happen and I believe the red words are all inclusive - not some of the dead and not some of the Christians Paul is writing to. What do you mean by "as we know it" at the end of your above statement?

Love your post Chockfull. Followers of twi are indoctrinated to distrust, condemn and even despise what Christianity has to offer outside their little isolated world. I like that you mentioned free thought, prayer and collaboration because any group that discourages or opposes these is not safe to be around.