Charity

T-Bone, that is a hard act to follow! So while Rocky was looking things up and answering his own question (good job ) and T-Bone was composing his very witty reply to Rocky's question (good job too ), I was busy comparing Gen 2 and Eph 5 (with a little help from John 12) because they each had the same verse which I found very interesting How so, you must be wondering . This is how so . Genesis 2:18,21-24 John 12:24 Ephesians 5:28-31 The first Adam Jesus Christ the second Adam - And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. - John 12:23,24 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified - Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone:… (the corn of wheat = Jesus) - And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: - and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; but if it die,… - And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. (woman + man = fruit/children) - it brings forth much fruit. - And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (Adam calls Eve of his bones and of his flesh) - So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves his wife loves himself. - For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, (Men are to love their wives as their own bodies from which Eve/women came) - even as the Lord (nourishes and cherishes) the church: For we are members of his (Jesus Christ's) body, of his flesh, and of his bones. (We, the church, are the firstfruits of Jesus' death mentioned in John 12:24 above. We are also of Jesus' body, flesh and bones as Eve was of Adam's) - therefore shall a man leave his father & his mother and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh - for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife and they two shall be one flesh In case anyone is by the chart, it all boils down to how Genesis and Ephesians are aligned with each other (with John's help of course). The first Adam plus Eve in Genesis are connected not only to the husbands and wives in Ephesians but also to the second Adam and his church. If you already knew all this then I hope you enjoyed how colorful and organized everything was !

I'd have to say yes to that - haven't you?

- you certainly know how to put a spin on things. I am so happy I never had the nerve to ask people to sponsor me so I could go into the Corps (which I wanted to do being as I was a good faithful little follower .

Those are wonderful verses Rocky - thanks for sharing them. I'll reword what I wrote previously to saying that I would like to know if a characteristic of a narcissist is a progression that leads to needing more power, more attention, more fame, etc. I did a google search for myself and the couple I looked at described what is called grandiose narcissism which was listed as a different type, not as a progression from narcissism to greater narcissism.

Someone has recently shared with me that real cult leaders hang on forever to an organization they have founded because they are narcissists. In other words, they don't pass on all leadership roles to others and move away from what they've built to build something that is bigger and better. A few posters have shared information about narcissists. I need a website that confirms that the opposite to this is not only possible but most likely. I know vp never moved on to start a new ministry under a new name with greater claims of what God has called him to do but Bickle has quite a few times.

I'm on my way out the door, but I was exactly in the place you are speaking of now. It all opened up to me when I started reading the Absent Christ thread at the end of November of last year and it was definitely a grieving process that many of the posters helped me get through. Here's the link to where I began on GSC - and another link for the beginning of the thread. You'll find posts begin to stray off topic but keep scrolling through when that happens. This is a very long thread (93 pages). That thread is now closed but if you wanted to start a new one with a slightly different name, you can get a lot of support from others. Please keep in touch. This is where OldSkool began the thread

I see what you are saying. Here's my side of it. 1. GSC is an open forum to discuss ideas. 2. With vp, his "expression of an idea" and the words he used "to describe it" became a doctrine (a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church) which progressed into becoming dogma (a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true). That's how we ended of with "the law of believing," "the great principle" about holy spirit and "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ." The problem is that these terms of his were contrary to what the scriptures actually taught and therefore were extremely detrimental to the believers - they made the word of God in our lives ineffectual. 3. So when I said that the words you used ("virtue drainage, budget on virtue that day and Jesus needed to be sharp about it, finite virtue budget") were not in the scriptures you were referring to, it was in the context of showing that your terms (like vp's) were contrary to what the scriptures actually said and as a result would take the power and life out of the word of God (Heb 4:12).

Too funny - ask Mikey, he knows everything!

In jumping from one Google search to the next, I happened across "The Book of Acts - Corps Notes by vpw - all 467 pages of it. Amazing how these things happen . http://eternallyblessed.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Acts-Corps-Notes.pdf Here's a quote from page 7 "I want you to acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness of the book of Acts and an awareness of the greatness of that Word and how it really fits. You can take any major piece of work that God has given in the Word and if you really work it with a minute accuracy, by the time you finish it you will have garnered the principles that then can be utilized in every other book in every other walk in your life where you are walking and developing that spiritual depth and awareness. ------------------- It’s not something you learn overnight; the new birth is something that happens like that. It’s like the first birth when you were delivered or brought forth. The new birth is an instantaneous thing, but the growing up is in many respects like growing up physically. Spiritual awareness and real sharp perception does not happen overnight. It’s a growth in your walk, your knowledge of the Word and your overall practice of the principles of the greatness of God’s Word."

From where I'm sitting and reading my computer screen, I believe people have clearly communicated their problems with what you've shared in your posts. You said you knew GSC was going to be a tough audience to convince and you seemed to appreciate that being the case. Maybe if you are willing to discuss their reasons for disagreeing with you, more understanding can be gained.

I think the answers are right in the verses as they are written. I'll share more tomorrow.

So that would explain why Jesus didn't mention it in Matthew 24 with all the other end time events. Thanks OldSkool.

My point in asking about this is why did Jesus not mention what Paul revealed by revelation in 1 Thess 4:16-17 about the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ rising first...why did Jesus not mention this when talking about the events of the end times in Matthew 24? If it was because it was not revealed to Jesus until after his ascension which he then later passed onto Paul, it might touch on your question from an earlier post about"the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?"

You're right, I did it again. I can see where my comments have put you in a box of my own making based on my opinion of your relationship with Jesus. I sincerely apologize and you can call me on it if I should ever do it again. Maybe I am about to rationalize my behavior here, but when I read about Jesus experiencing a "virtue drainage" and so forth when a woman was miraculously healed from 12 years of bleeding by touching his garment, or about there seemingly being a tight budget in other “spiritual commodities" when Jesus was in agony praying to his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, it saddens me and I strike out at you. If I were to psychoanalyze myself, I would say I am projecting onto you the feelings (both positive and negative) I had when I went from the Jesus I knew while in twi to the Jesus I know now since being on GSC. Mike, I am slowly getting it into my head that I can speak about your viewpoints about scripture without judging your relationship with Jesus.

Thanks for replying here T-Bone although you are very good at inserting links that take your readers quickly to previous posts. Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. In verse 34, Jesus refers to "this generation" which includes himself so it agrees with what you quoted above. There is no specific generation which Bickle teaches will either be this one or the next one. I wonder how long his 24/7 prayer room will last (which according to him costs $13,000 a day to operate even though the staff are non-paid employees) before it fizzles out. One last thing, is vp's teaching that Jesus did not know about the "administration" of grace because it was hidden in God until Paul revealed it accurate?

My 3 older brothers and myself are all baby boomers. Then there are these: Generation X – born 1965-1979. - my oldest son Millennials – born 1980-1994. - my daughter and son Generation Z – born 1995-2012 - 2 grandchildren Gen Alpha – born 2013 – 2025 - 5 grandchildren It's weird to think that my 3 kids belong to 2 different generations. I think I'll try calling them by those names instead since I'll only have 2 to get right instead of 3 - less of a chance of mixing up their names. With 10 names altogether to match up with the right person, I'll take whatever help I can get. Please say you know what I mean . (I have no trouble with the names of my son-in-law and 2 daughters-in-law. The 2 cats - I mostly just call them cats - they don't seem to care!)

Thanks Rocky - I agree, soon-to-be cult leaders have to have something to rally the troops around in order to attract followers who unfortunately sincerely believe in the cause and in their leader.

Adam Wittenberg who is on staff at Bickle's IHOP KC writes,"The global end-time worship movement is the Church’s first line of defense against Satan’s activity." (1) Here he is referring in part to Bickle's 24/7 prayer room. And in another article he says, "We are very likely living in the early days of that generation." (2) Bickle's whole ministry is based on his definition of "generation." However, the website below explains why the author thinks the definition of "generation" used by many who are focused on the end times is not accurate. I very much would like to know what you all think about this issue of the word "generation." Thanks! (If this needs to be discussed in doctrinal, I'll post it again there.) https://www.christiantruthcenter.com/end-time-its-definition-beginning-and-end/ Some highlights are: "We usually hold that the last days, last hour and the end time refer to the generation that will see the second coming of Jesus Christ. This is not biblical. The Jews were waiting for the Kingdom to come with Messiah. The Messianic age was termed ‘the latter days, the End Time’ by the prophets. So after Christ came, the Apostles declared that the coming of the Kingdom and the King had taken place. They were declaring that the ‘latter days or End Times’ had begun; the last era in human history had begun. What all history had been leading up to, namely, the coming of God’s kingdom in Christ had come. We know that the Kingdom of God will not fully come to earth until Jesus Christ has put all his enemies, including death, underneath his feet at the events portrayed by Revelation 20:14 (1 Cor. 15:24-28). The Bible declares that End Time began with the coming of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago and will be wrapped up when he finally destroys death after his third coming." (1)https://www.ihopkc.org/resources/blog/worship-end-times/ (2) https://www.ihopkc.org/resources/blog/cant-know-day-hour-commanded-know-generation-lords-return/

Hi, After I read your post, I looked up the verse about having a seared conscience which was cool but I then noticed something else! 1 Tim 4:1-5 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. To me, these verses read as something that is currently happening so I wondered why Timothy is making reference to the latter times. So I did a simple google search and an awesome website came up which I'm going to put on the "If it talks like a cult..." thread." P.S. Thanks Chockfull for this post!

Thank you so much for your post Chockfull. This is exactly what I meant in my post about Mike's reference to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. It just makes me wonder if he even realizes the greatness and heart of Jesus in the verses he quotes about him or if he only sees them through his man-made "budgeting" lens. The former speaks of a relational understanding of our Lord and the latter speaks of a purely intellectual-lala-land concept of Jesus in the Bible (imo).

Good morning Mike, let me try it this way to clarify my point concerning what you had written about the woman touching the garment of Jesus. Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.(KJV) 1. Every word highlighted below are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words. If you like the law of believing, Jesus does a niftly little teaching on it in the next verses. But, with these verses I get a picture of a “virtue” budget. I have no idea what the virtue is or means, but I do get an idea of a finite amount to begin with, a finite flow out of Jesus, and Jesus getting a sense of the change. These are all the kinds of things that happen around the maintaining of a finite virtue budget, by a guy who has infinite spirit. WHY, WHY, WHY would God want to tell us about this virtue drainage while Jesus was on the way to raise a little girl from the dead? Jesus’ virtue tank got sudden dip and he felt it, because God told him (I guess). Why would God tell him? Well if you are going to do a big job, you might want to save some gas in your tank for that job? These verses are screaming the idea at me that there was a budget on virtue that day and Jesus needed to be sharp about it. _____________________________________________________ The rest of my post went like this: 2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with. 3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub "And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby: that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever. Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy." Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.

twi definitely wanted us to have a mindset based on their way of thinking - I was thinking of these verses as describing a scriptural mindset (like just read what's written) but I see your point that everyone has the freedom to develop their own mindset for themselves. Take care,

You're correct Rocky, Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Along with that verse, I think Ephesians 4:14a and 15 are also helpful verses to remember when discussing scripture in an open forum: 14a That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: Cheers!

Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. 1. Every word highlighted above are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words. 2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with. 3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub "And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby: that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever. Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy." Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.

You can call it a myth or exercising his imagination, but he sees it quite differently. Again, you see it Rocky that Mike is dealing in myth using imaginative interpretation, but he sees it differently. This is how Mike sees himself in all this - as someone who has made the Word the guiding light of his life. Are you saying he might never decide to climb out of a box that someone's opinion of him put him in? In my opinion, the only box Mike is in and the only box he cares about is the one he firmly put himself in by saying a number of times that he is not going to change his mind about the collaterals. I know it is never too late for someone to change and I would love it if he surprises everyone at some point and climbs out of his box. Time will tell and God only knows for sure.