Charity

I agree with OldSkool that God is a very generous giver of free gifts because of His love and through these gifts we are able to love ourselves and others. Again, I think of "charity never fails" which speaks of the power of the love of God. I was wondering what you thought of the quote from above: “We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection. Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow. It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them. We can only love others as much as we live ourselves. Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive its injuries if they’re acknowledged, healed and rare.” In the quote above, she speaks of cultivating love as opposed to giving or getting it, but she does use the word "offering" when talking about allowing our "most vulnerable and powerful selves" to be deeply seen and known. I think that is something we do give to others to receive, as well as honoring the connection she speaks of - it also implies a giving of ourselves to do so.

I really like that you mentioned boundaries. I immediately thought of what I've learned previously about them from books and counselling, but then I thought of googling if there are boundaries in the Bible. I expected to get a bunch of websites about O.T.'s division of land, but I was wrong. This is one of them that I liked (haven't read the whole article yet). It mentions Jehovah Rapha in a title at the top which means "The Lord who Heals" and a short "Meet the Author" speaks of personal healing within her marriage where sexual addiction was involved. 5 More Principles of Biblical Boundaries we Learn from God. - His Dearly Loved Daughter Ministries Your last sentence has two very good questions to come back to and think about.

In The Power of Vulnerability, Brene Brown says, "We can only love others as much as we live ourselves." and she gives an example why she believes this. Matthew 22:39 says, And the second is like unto it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Many others, including me, would say I love my children more than I love myself and I find some truth in this. I would do anything for my children to keep them safe, loved, cared for, etc., and I mean this with all my heart. But how is it that I would know how to love them one way, a better way, than I know to love myself and if I could, why would I not love myself in that same way? Is it because they're more deserving than I am, or that I want them to "turn out healthier" than I did? Yes on both accounts. However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting. If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult. What are the chances then that they might affect how I act towards my children, spouse, etc. On this forum, I've heard how time spent in twi changed healthy beliefs about loving yourself and others into self-hatred or a distrust of love. We learned that even the love of God was conditional and became hard-hearted towards certain others. When trying to figure this all out, there are self-help books, counselling and therapy on the one hand, and on the other are what scriptures teach like 2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind; and 1 Thes 4:9 But as touching brotherly love, ye need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another. What works and what doesn't work?

The following is a post of mine from the "New John Juedes video debunking Wierwille Books" thread. I think we all agree that love is a basic need of us humans so a new discussion about love - both human and God's - might be beneficial to some. I’ve been listening to the audiobook “The Power of Vulnerability” by Brene Brown. From what I’ve heard so far, she’s made no reference to God so I think it’s safe to say she is talking about human love. As a result of her research on vulnerability and shame, she gives her definition of love as being: “We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection. Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow. It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them. We can only love others as much as we live ourselves. Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive its injuries if they’re acknowledged, healed and rare.” Concerning God's love, two verses I’ve been thinking about lately are 1 Cor 13:8, “Charity never fails” and verse 13, “And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” The first is an incredible promise and the latter is a pretty significant fact. Why is charity the greatest when compared to faith and hope? With faith, Gal 5:6 says For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love; and with hope Rom 5:5 says, And hope maketh not ashamed (disappointed); because the love of God is shed (poured out) abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. I haven’t given much thought as to the accuracy of vp’s and twi’s actual teachings about the love of God, but we know that the opposite of it was manifested towards many, many believers. This would be one reason for their lack of faith/trust/believing being demonstrated. That leaves hope. How was our belief and understanding of the hope affected back then and what do we think now about this topic that is spoken so often of in scripture? The topic of human and God's love is broad. I'll start a new thread and see where it goes from there.

I think we all agree that love is a basic need of us humans so a new discussion about love - both human and God's - might be beneficial to some. I’ve been listening to the audiobook “The Power of Vulnerability” by Brene Brown. From what I’ve heard so far, she’s made no reference to God so I think it’s safe to say she is talking about human love. As a result of her research on vulnerability and shame, she gives her definition of love as being: “We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection. Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow. It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them. We can only love others as much as we live ourselves. Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive its injuries if they’re acknowledged, healed and rare.” Concerning God's love, two verses I’ve been thinking about lately are 1 Cor 13:8, “Charity never fails” and verse 13, “And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” The first is an incredible promise and the latter is a pretty significant fact. Why is charity the greatest when compared to faith and hope? With faith, Gal 5:6 says For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love; and with hope Rom 5:5 says, And hope maketh not ashamed (disappointed); because the love of God is shed (poured out) abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. I haven’t given much thought as to the accuracy of vp’s and twi’s actual teachings about the love of God, but we know that the opposite of it was manifested towards many, many believers. This would be one reason for their lack of faith/trust/believing being demonstrated. That leaves hope. How was our belief and understanding of the hope affected back then and what do we think now about this topic that is spoken so often of in scripture? The topic of human and God's love is broad. I'll start a new thread and see where it goes from there.

I know you weren’t Rocky. And I was okay with you still maintaining in your post that vp’s entire enterprise was based on and revolved around bibliolatry. I wrote earlier that I felt the topic of bibliolatry did belong in the About the Way forum when it was being used to refute vp and twi. To answer your question - no I have no problem whatsoever with a thread in the doctrinal forum on the subject of bibliolatry.

Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith I thought I'd add what the moderators posted about this forum. "The Greasespot rules apply here just as they do on any other forum. They apply to everyone, regardless of forum "status" or authority. They apply FOR everyone, regardless of faith or lack thereof. This forum on Questioning Faith was started in order to isolate discussions on atheism from other discussions on doctrine. It was started specifically in response to complaints in the Actual Errors in Genesis thread. There was an ERRONEOUS belief that the doctrinal section is for believers only, and that people who are not believers are "wasting their time" posting in doctrinal. Let it be clear: anyone of any faith (or lack thereof) is free to post on any thread in doctrinal. Efforts to make posters feel unwelcome in the doctrinal section because of their beliefs will not be tolerated. The same goes for Questioning Faith. ANYONE can post here, no matter what you believe. But whether it's an atheist in the doctrinal section or a believer in Questioning Faith, it is expected that your contribution to the discussion will be On Topic." If two people are discussing who is the best active player in Major League Baseball, you can't decide this is the right place to talk about whether the Red Sox blundered trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees. You don't get to declare the thread to be about baseball in general just because baseball is an element of the conversation. If you are not interested in a conversation, you do not get to unilaterally change it. If you would like to start a related discussion, feel free to do so. That will keep the thread on topic while still allowing you to explore ideas inspired by but not directly related to the topic at hand. Calling someone deceitful will not be tolerated. Calling someone demonic will not be tolerated. If you're going to call a statement untrue, be prepared to back it up. The issue is the statement, NOT the person making it. Believers are more than welcome to challenge atheist ideas in Questioning Faith. Believers are welcome to start threads and initiate discussions. They are more than allowed to participate in discussions -- they are invited to do so. The point is to have a discussion, not a monologue or an echo chamber. Challenging someone's beliefs = fair game. Mocking them or demonizing them for holding a belief = NOT fair game.

I wrote in my post that I agreed bibliolatry did fit in with the "About the Way" forum which is described as "discussion about The Way International and its leadership." I was thinking in the sense that vp taught the written word replaced the absent Christ. Bibliolatry is also about questioning the inerrancy, infallibility and supremacy of Scripture, something vp claimed God had chosen him to do by wanting him to research and teach the Word like it hadn't been taught since the first century. He also declared he had accomplished this. His declaration, however, has been proven to be wrong because of the inaccuracy of his teachings as revealed in this forum. In both cases, vp and twi were the focus of the discussions. My point was referring to topics and posts which speak of no longer believing in God or in His Word at all. The forum below includes the topics of skepticism and questioning faith. _________________ Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith For me, I had mainly noticed only the first topic of this forum when reading its title. I was a bit surprised when I looked at it fully after waysider posted the link. I appreciate GSC for having these options available for they do serve a useful purpose for many people. I was not familiar with the definition of nontheism so I looked it up and read the website below. It explains the difference between it and atheism. What is nontheism? What does it mean to be nontheistic? | GotQuestions.org

Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith This is it! Thanks waysider.

"Bibliolatry...is the worship of a book, idolatrous homage to a book, or the deifying of a book...It is a form of idolatry." I agree this fits in with what I understand the "About the Way" forum was to be about - the freedom to look at the other side of what twi taught without fear of having threats, condemnation and insults thrown at you. Many, many times, I have read people say that the reason for their posts was to help those thinking of leaving twi or those who have left and are struggling mentally, emotionally, spiritually to find strength and healing. So, I personally feel that discussing the idea that the Bible is no longer relevant or no longer a source for truth is 1) not going to help these people and 2) have nothing to do about the way because they never taught this. There is not the other side of one of their coins (beliefs). If I had read some of these posts when I came to GSC 8 months ago, I would have turned away for the site immediately. Instead, I read a discussion about the Absent Christ and it changed my spiritual life from being one step away from the grave to becoming alive and meaningful for the first time ever - even after being in twi for 12 years. Discussing the importance of critical thinking is helpful because it was done away with in the way. But in my opinion, if one's critical thinking leads them to no longer believe in God or in His Word at all, then I think a thread should be started to discuss this in a different forum. In this way, I agree with what Penworks suggested.

Hi, If you can see truth, then have you found it? And what do you do with truth once you see it if you can't hold onto it? Does the truth you see lead you anywhere - are you able to follow it and apply it to your life? Is truth personal to how one sees/perceives it and therefore cannot be said to be THE truth?

Thanks for the list of websites. I'm starting today to listen to The Power of Vulnerability through the public library here and I've placed a hold on Braving the Wilderness - only one hold before me.

I can see the practicality of Alan Watts' quote about facing the fear of the unknown. In one way, it reminds me of being in a relationship with God. Christians are challenged by God to face our fears. He wants to push our self-made boundaries, leap out of our personal comfort zones and accept what life puts before us. When we as His much-loved children accept these challenges and are sincerely curious in seeing how He wants to work in us to overcome them, this curiosity will open us up to an infinite stream of His possibilities (Phil 2:13, Eph 3:20).

Hi Rocky, yes to your first question and unlikely to your second, but it is an interesting question. I can think of only one exception and that would be if God leads me to read it for some purpose of His. Not trying to be sanctimonious - just my personal reason concerning myself.

"I think it's good to read a book before we criticize or discard it." I think this is true some of the times but not always. The description written on the back of The End of Biblical Studies is a summary of the main ideas which are further explained and established by the author within its pages. A criterion for deciding whether to read a book or not is often based on how strongly we agree or disagree with the summary given about its topic. After leaving twi, I did try to stay connected with God through online sources such as Kenneth Copeland at first and then a couple of the offshoots of twi. I even tried going to a church. I ended with giving up on wanting God in my life for decades although I still thought of Him now and then. Last November was one of those times and when I started reading the Absent Christ thread here on GSC, I began to understand how twi’s doctrines really screwed up Christianity for me. While I do not understand everything the scriptures say, from what I’ve learned since last year about walking with Christ and trusting God, I can say I totally disagree with Hector Avalos’ views in his book.

Thank you WW! I've been enlightened (reminded of) that there are athletic activities other than the ones I see constantly being watched on TV in my home like baseball, hockey, golf, soccer, tennis and football (apparently there's not much interest in basketball) . I also have forgotten about the "teaching" blabbering LCM did in AOS. My unpleasant reaction to seeing Staying Alive's dance put me in a pretty pessimistic mood about all things AOS. Thanks also for bringing scripture into your reply - always love to see that .

You have unraveled a great mystery for me - I never understood why people would say AOS was a rip-off of Staying Alive. I kept thinking I saw the movie and there wasn't anything like the "seed dance" in it. Now I realize that I was actually thinking of the movie Saturday Night Fever where Stayin' Alive was the opening song. I never knew about this movie which surprises me because I love to watch dance movies (Footloose/Kevin Bacon, Dirty Dancing/Patrick Swayze, Flashdance/Jennifer Beals [with the help of body and dance doubles] dancing to What a Feeling). So when I saw this scene above from the movie Staying Alive, it all made sense except after 30 seconds, I couldn't stand to watch any more - it so reminded me of AOS plus I just could not understand why such a similar dance, setting and costumes would be in a major motion picture. My momentary confusion was because of having seen the AOS video first and so often that it felt like the movie was copying it (instead of the other way round) which was a real freaky feeling. Since then I've watched a bit more but I haven't decided whether to watch the whole movie to see what the storyline for the Satan's Alley dance was. Anyway, still trying to figure out which athletic sports have any of the moves shown in AOS - if you know of any, please enlighten me.

T-Bone, As I read back through different threads, I find so many posts of yours that have taught spiritual truths about a myriad of topics that I have found to be very helpful. Your sharing about the Socratic method was new to me in context of an open forum and your humour was always the cherry on top to finish things off. All God's best to you and your family in everything the comes your way. Peace, Charity

I had not heard this before and I find it very interesting as someone who's had to deal with strong emotions a lot in my life. Thinking about it now, emotions seem to well up suddenly and are harder if not impossible to manage. So where does that leave "feelings" - definitely want to learn more about this" Thank you for sharing about it!

I add my thanks as well to everyone mentioned above. GSC posters showed me the damaging lie of twi's "absent Christ" doctrine and the enlightening truth of having a present and personal Christ with me 24/7. There's a lot of other great stuff, but this is the biggest and bestest ( ) ever.

Thank you Chockfull for bringing up "inherit the wind" (which I just found out is from Prov 11:29) and Oldiesman for the clip from the movie. I looked it up as well and learned the main theme of Inherit the Wind is freedom of speech. In the play, freedom of speech is closely related to freedom of thought. More interesting themes were listed in this website. https://www.litcharts.com/lit/inherit-the-wind/themes

This may be a silly question but why wouldn't or couldn't they have just sold everything and split the money how ever many ways and move on? Did they really think they could build up twi to make it the golden goose that it was in the 70's and 80's.

"Time to come home is a strategic plan to reach out to individuals who once fellowshipped with The Way Ministry, but, for whatever reason, currently do not." This "strategic plan" of twi is a pathetic and deceitful lie to tempt people to return to the dog's vomit whereas Jeremiah 29:11 speaks the truth, "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." I think the song below also speaks of what it truly means to come home for anyone who is missing loving fellowship. ("come home" is in the chorus )