Charity

Nathan_Jr wrote, "God's word is God's will" is a loaded, pithy phrase, insidiously designed to seduce." vp and lcm, as supposed MOG, obviously were not trustworthy. Being smart (or intelligent) has nothing to do with being trustworthy. It's interesting why you would say it does - it might have something to do with the fact that you often refer to the intelligence of people in twi and almost always, it's in a way to imply yours is greater than theirs. Now a sound mind does come into play since once must be of a sound mind at the time their last will and testament is written. "I use this line" reminds me of what a guy/girl does when trying to pick someone up in a bar or something. I don't think Jesus had a line or slogan when he ministered to people. Then again, in twi, witnessing wasn't about ministering so much as it was about selling the class; hence a pickup line comes in handy. The "God's word is God's will" slogan is everything Nathan_Jr says it is, especially when it's repeated over and over again.

I read something this morning about Matt 22:39 that was like an epiphany for me and I'm rather taken aback by it. There is a different meaning given to "Thou shall love your neighbour as yourself." My understanding has always been that you have to love yourself first before you can love others and that's what many secular books say as well. However, since this verse is not merely a commandment, but the second great commandment after loving God, a question now comes to mind: Why would God command us to love ourselves? If God needs to command that we love ourselves then it must mean we are not always doing so (which would apply to everyone - and especially those who struggle with self-love, self-esteem, self-worth, etc.). I've always taken this verse to mean then that I have to work on loving myself which I have been trying to do most of my life. It's what keeps me analyzing my past. However, I can honestly say this hasn't moved me very far forward spiritually, emotionally, mentally or physically. What if this verse doesn't mean I need to love myself before I can love others? What if loving ourselves has nothing to do with our works? What if it is something that has already been established for us by God through Christ. As God's kid, we are beloved of God as much as Jesus is beloved of God. If this is true, then being loved by God is enough - we don't need to add to it by loving ourselves. If there's any work to be done, it is understanding how perfectly we are loved by Him. That's when the focus of verse 39 then becomes on the neighbor and loving them. I'm sure there are others here who have figured this out before now. I'm wondering if anyone knew and practiced this while in twi.

I assuming Rocky when you say that "love ourselves" was indelibly imprinted in your mind that you meant while you were in twi. How did they teach what it meant? Was it simply a command to love ourselves and then to love others in the same way? Because that's how I always understood it to mean, and I didn't know much of anything about the Bible until going into twi.

Good point! Metaphorically, the cat with the chicks (especially the nursing of them) made me think of how twi was the opposite (their exclusivity and condemnation towards Christians outside of it). Then the pulling the chicks back reminded me of their use of fear to keep people from leaving and finally the ducks following the cat was like when you could no longer think for yourself. BUT, that's not anything like the video is really about - it's adorable and all about the love! (in case anyone hasn't watched it)

Er, yes there's that. You did get my hopes up though because I thought it was this one that my friend and I used to love to dance to. What Is Love (7" Mix) - Bing video You might like this version better what with the dancing and all Haddaway - What Is Love (Echo) - Bing video And then there's this one by Foreigner that used to pull at my heart strings. Foreigner - 'I Want To Know What Love Is' [Official Music Video] - Bing video I say "used to" because I haven't listened to either one in a long time, but I still feel this way about them. .

vp was cunning in how he used his version of God’s Word, God’s will and God’s love to cultivate an obedience to him. lcm learned to do the same but was more blatant about it. Is obedience love? As children of God, when we love God, we keep his commandments. But there’s more to it: Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another (1 John 4:10-11). And we love him because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19). I think God wants us to get the order right which means to first focus on His personal love for us and then love Him and others in response to it. Does love fear reprisal? It would when someone understands or defines love in unhealthy ways - like an abused person who “loves” their abuser yet lives in fear of failing to meet his/her narcissist expectations and demands of what being “loved” means. Not, however, in a healthy loving relationship and definitely not when we love God. Does love expect reward? Expecting a reward when you show love to someone makes that person feel like they have to earn your love. So that’s not right. Yet God promises to give rewards at the Bema for obedience to His word here on earth. So, there’s that to understand about Him and His love.

I did not want the thread to only be about Godly love so anyone could be part of the discussion. I also brought in the issue of what we learned about love as kids and now I'm thinking how much of what we learned about love that was unhealthy was repeated in our experience in twi. Did it have a factor in why we were attracted to it and/or why we stayed as long as we did.

This is something I've never heard of before. It's interesting though what it does or does not show about twi - definitely open to interpretation.

Just amending the above to have it say, "Feel free to correct or disagree with me any time."

I stand corrected on the "THE" and thanks for the reply!

I appreciate that Raf. As much as learning to accept and give love is cultivated or hindered in childhood, being in twi made things so much harder to know what love is. Example, the rod (spoon) of correction used for years on toddlers and children. In their recent magazine, no mention of this old barbaric tactic is mentioned because they were told during the lawsuit against them that it had to stop. But what about the emotional and physical fear and pain children lived with and most likely carried with them for years later, as well as the guilt parents felt later on by following twi's doctrine of how to love our children? Question: Was the prominent habit of using the spoon taught because of vp's belief and practice of how to train his dogs? There are so many examples of twi teaching us how not to love ourselves or others and having to unlearn it all doesn't come overnight - it takes for some people decades to work through it. However, you're the moderator and I respect your decision. (hot chocolate with whipped cream for me ) I'll PM you.

Thinking this could have been a very real possibility made me chuckle at first, but cognitive dissonance does come into play in the arena of our minds when thoughts of love meet up with thoughts of being unlovable or unworthy of love. Snappy was blessed when someone reached out to him/her with kindness and love. What prevents us from reaching out to ourselves in that way. Experiencing a lot of shame as children comes to mind as shame results in "I'm" statements - I'm bad; I'm useless, etc. - it's a focus placed on self and keeps us away from wanting to be with others. Shame is not only very different from guilt, but it prevents us from having guilt. Guilt focuses on our behaviour (I was rude to my friend) which makes it possible to choose to make amends. I'm beginning to understand now that when I have trouble accepting the fact that I've made a mistake, I'm probably feeling shame instead of guilt. How much was shame used to keep believers down and subservient to leaders in twi. Shame is not of God.

Thanks very much, Rocky. It's touching how the pup fiercely resisted an unperceived gesture of kindness and love because of fear and pain, yet the woman persisted in such a gentle way. Also, to see how Snappy learned to accept love and give love while letting go of both the fear and pain. It makes me think how isolating oneself from others out of emotional fear and pain brings no enlightenment or healing. As well is how reaching out to someone who is hurting but wants to be left alone, is loving not only in words, but in deeds. When you see the power of human love, how much more powerful is Godly love once one learns to trust it. The way ministry helped both to damage, and in some cases, ruin that trust for many.

I remember that claim and get what you mean

Feel free to correct me any time. I remember reading something about this but I found it confusing, although I did look up the meaning of radicals which I'm sure only confused me more . So, are you saying that since vp was inaccurate with the "sitting" stuff that rest and ceasing work is a correct translation?

He's determined to make scripture fit into the teaching and terminology of the collaterals which have vp's name on than the other way round. It's a blatant way to trash the verses that describe what a true servant of Christ is to be.

I don't fully understand David's love for the law as he speaks about it in Psalm 119. I have not studied the OT much or read any secular books about the history, culture, wars, beliefs, etc. of those times. But David obviously knew something about the law that pleased him greatly. Paul said in Romans 7 that the law was holy, just and good - people were just not able to keep it. Gal 3 says that the law was added because of transgressions until the promised seed should come. The law was called a schoolmaster to bring the Jews unto Christ that they might be justified by faith. This explains why under the law, anyone who deliberately broke the Sabbath was put to death. The 4th commandment taught the Jews that in order to enter into God's rest, they had to cease from their own works. This pointed towards the coming Messiah whose work alone on the cross would save the world from sin. The penalty for breaking the Sabbath was severe (death) but it is also the penalty for those who try to be saved through their own works (eternal death).

Thank you for catching that typo - it made me laugh. Speaking of the quote being an organic whole, I often think of the first and second great commandments as being independent thoughts instead of being interrelated by the word love as it is talked about throughout 1 John. I've also spent much of my adult life with the goal of understanding myself and others even to the point of studying the brain and how it figures into all of it. Learning how the past influences our thoughts, feelings and behaviors of the present is fascinating to me. My experience though has shown me that understanding myself isn't enough to move me forward very far nor does it prevent slipping backwards from happening. That's why my goal now is to stay focused on the healing power of love, especially the love of God, instead of visiting the topic now and then. I just need to get clear on what "staying focused" involves .

I like the words cultivate and grow because babies are not born with self-esteem issues - those are developed along the way. The environment you describe above gives a true sense of safety and contentment - where people can stand tall and breathe in confidence and happiness. It's so life-affirming. The author goes on to talk about how today's culture is particularly shame based which brings to mind the image of wilting flowers. By shame-based, she means the use of shame, personal attacks and teardowns in order to be heard which basically is what some reality shows are built on and then called entertainment. In fact, this can be seen here on GSC from the posts of a certain member. Now that's interesting. Was the unloving nature of this habit cultivated only while in twi or even earlier in life? I would think though that everyone everywhere has to be on watch against doing this either habitually or if only now and again.

Oh, the shivering he does is so sad. But that's how trauma affects our minds and bodies as well. And you're right about the power of love - it took his fears away and brought healing to his cute, cuddly little body.

When I read your post, I felt like I did so many months ago when reading the Absent Christ thread - wanting to learn and grow and know Christ more. Separating the verses in Deut 6 that speak of obeying God from the one that speaks of loving God got me thinking about some things and questioning others. I'm still working it. One thing I thought of was the lawyer who asked Jesus which was the great commandment in the law merely for the purpose of tempting Jesus. Jesus knew how self-righteous the Pharisees believed themselves to be by "obeying" the commandments; yet he also knew that they did not love God in their hearts. He pointed out their hypocrisy by quoting verse 5 in Deut 6 and naming it the first and great commandment - meaning greater than all of Yahweh's laws which they were gloating about keeping. (Reminds me about faith, hope and charity abiding, but the greatest of these being charity.) To me, this is Bibliolatry - exalting a knowledge of scripture above a desire to have charity as it is defined in 1 Cor 13:4-7. Doing so makes the person a nothing with no spiritual profit gained whatsoever. Finally, your last paragraph is why I started the thread about love and what it is. "To love completely is to know Christ" is very inspiring as is reading 1 John to understand more about the love of God. Great post - thanks!

And yes Rocky, I know Mike won't read my post - but I enjoyed writing it.

Warning: A longer post with scriptures! Mike, do you know what God said about those verses in Deut 6:1–12 that you are gloating about? Jer 31:3-33 Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake (sorry - no bible freaks here), although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. We just happened to get holy spirit before them thanks to the mystery of Christ that Paul talks about in Eph 3. Why did Jesus reduce all the law and the prophets into the 2 great commandments? Because the 2 great commandments are based solely on the love of God – the same love that God poured into our hearts by the holy spirit which He gave to us. What happened to the law in Deut 6? Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. What do we do now? Mike, the written word is not just letters on a page to be simply quoted like OldSkool spoke of above. And Oldiesman left out a critical truth in his post – the holy spirit. We would get absolutely nowhere with God’s Word without the spirit of God within us. To be living epistles of Christ, we cannot be written with ink in tables of stone, but we must be written with the Spirit of the living God in fleshy tables of the heart.