Charity

I never said God could not change his mind. I showed verses to prove that He could. That was an important point you overlooked. I didn't hear any words of "correction" from the angel. What I heard said was "12 ...Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." This implies that the angel (or God) had doubt that Abraham would sacrifice has son to God as a burnt offering which is why he waited to the very last second to stop him instead of like maybe earlier when Abraham was gathering the wood and getting the fire - even when tying up Isaac would have been a good time. You really need to let go of weirwille's teaching. The account was a test of Abraham's obedience which God apparently needed. I hope he never gives you such a test of your obedience to him.

Judges 11:30 Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, saying, “If you really do hand the Ammonites over to me, 31 then whoever is the first to come through the doors of my house to meet me when I return safely from fighting the Ammonites – he will belong to the Lord and I will offer him up as a burnt sacrifice.” What would have happened to Wierwille's interpretation of the story if someone other than Jephthah's daughter was the first to come through the door? What if maybe a half-beaten-to-death slave or one of the lawless men he hung out with (vs 3) or even one of his brothers who had, along with all his other brothers, previously kicked Jephthah out of their home because he was only a half-brother (and the son of a prostitute to boot) and who hadn't gone into battle that day because he had tripped over the dog and jabbed himself in his eye with his breakfast fork... happened to come through the door first that dreadful day? To make the story even more ridiculous, what if that person wasn't even going out to meet Jephthah returning victoriously from battle but just wanted to get some fresh air. Point being that the vow was whoever came out first, Jephthah would offer him/her up as a burnt offering. Then keeping with vp's definition of a burnt offering, any one of the above-mentioned characters in this soap opera would have had to be given for "total commitment to God's service." You can't make this stuff up!

It took a simple google search to check something vpw wrote and find out he was wrong. He said, "Had this been God's will, as Abraham thought it was, there never would have been an angel needed to suddenly terminate the action because God cannot contradict Himself, He cannot change His will." However, in Jonah 3, it says 1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. God changes his will again in 1 Kings 21:17-29 and Numbers 14:11-20. ~~~~~~~~ Also, after messing up the meaning of Genesis 22 which clearly speaks of a burnt offering, he ends the chapter by bringing us into the story via Romans 12:1-2. "What good are we to God as dead sacrifices? He needs us as living, active sons to be faithful and carry out this work, totally committed to Him until death. By living according to God's Word, we are proved by Him and are "burnt offerings." Considering how vpw required his "kids" in the corps to be faithful and carry out the work of his ministry, totally committed to him unto death, his final words now fall far short of being inspirational.

Going by what is written below, it looks like he kept his vow to offer her up as a burnt offering. Judges 12 4 Jephthah assembled all the men of Gilead and they fought with Ephraim. The men of Gilead defeated Ephraim, because the Ephraimites insulted them, saying, “You Gileadites are refugees in Ephraim, living within Ephraim’s and Manasseh’s territory.” 5 The Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan River opposite Ephraim. On that day forty-two thousand Ephraimites fell dead. 7 Jephthah led Israel for six years; then he died and was buried in his city in Gilead.

Meanwhile, Isaac is looking for some clean underwear.

I tried unsuccessfully to google if such an Eastern Custom ever existed. You may have better resources than google - I hope you success! I checked all 366 times burnt is used in the bible. When I was unsure, I checked the context. Every time it was used with the word "offering", it was about burning something as a sacrifice. "The Hebrew word for “burnt offering” actually means to “ascend,“ literally to “go up in smoke.” The smoke from the sacrifice ascended to God, “a soothing aroma to the LORD” (Leviticus 1:9). Technically, any offering burned over an altar was a burnt offering, but in more specific terms, a burnt offering was the complete destruction of the animal (except for the hide) in an effort to renew the relationship between Holy God and sinful man. With the development of the law, God gave the Israelites specific instructions as to the types of burnt offerings and what they symbolized." What is a burnt offering? by Got questions? One last thing, there's the account in 1 Samuel 1 where Samuel's mother makes a vow to God saying "if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no rasor come upon his head." Comparing how she puts it to what Jephthah says (I will offer it up as a burnt offering), I wouldn't consider them meaning the same thing.

That idea is nowhere to be found in Gen 22. It is something that was permanently implanted into people’s minds thousands of years later. 1. God's commandment to sacrifice Isaac was specifically to test Abraham's obedience. Vs 1 2. The idea that Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead is never stated or hinted at before, during or after the incident. 3. Abraham did tell Isaac God would provide a lamb for the sacrifice. vs 8 (Perhaps he was lying to Isaac, but the fact that God did provide a ram and that Abraham named the place Jehovahjireh meaning "The Lord will provide" gives support to his statement. Vs 14) 4. Even though the angel stopped Abraham at the very last second, Abraham had by then proven he feared God by not withholding his only son Isaac from him. Vs 12 The idea that Genesis 22 was all Abraham’s faith that God would raise Isaac from the dead comes up for the first time thousands of years later in Heb 11:17-19. The writer actually goes on to say that in a way God did raise him from the dead by preventing his death. Having said all this, God’s need to test Abraham’s complete obedience in such a homicidal way shows he’s a narcissistic death-obsessed god. The fact that he pulls a ram out of his hat at the last second doesn’t change a thing.

If anyone cares to read it. https://picturesofsilver.com/Teachings/02genAbe4b.php ABRAHAM - Father of Believing Of Human Sacrifice It might need to be copied and pasted onto the internet.

From Rolling Stones 100 Greatest of All Times - Sons by Bob Dylan

I don't think that means much to a growing number of people who prefer to subjectively read the bible for what value certain parts hold for them. The only difference with them and atheists is that atheists stopped seeing value in any of it. But that doesn't prohibit either group from discussing it.

When I let go of my belief in God and "his word," other than feeling a brief loss over there being no life after death as described in the bible, only a feeling of relief existed. I could stop trying to figure out god, and I didn't have to worry about people going through the great tribulation and other such nonsense. But letting go of God as the creator had a lot of emotions attached to it as I discovered last night. Without having anything to do with the bible, the love that I have for nature and the awe at what are bodies are capable of doing always made God seem real to me. I've decided to stop focusing on what Christians have to say about evolution and their attempts to make it fit with creation. I figure it's better to spend that time learning about evolution for myself. I have heard people who have studied how life evolved as part of their career say there is a wonder to it. So, I took out several books from the library today, none that are heavy reading to get me started.

Thankfully, there are others who contribute to this post. And I figure, any time Chockfull posts, then it's open for replies.

All I remember is that vpw taught Abraham "misunderstood" what God meant. If this was true, God would have known this immediately and yet he waits until the last second where Isaac sees the knife being raised above him to correct Abraham. That teaching was simply to blame Abraham and stop God from looking horrendous. The writer of Hebrews 11:17-19 did not take Genesis 22 figuratively. Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. This confirms that God did tell Abraham to kill Isaac and the mention of it in Hebrews 11 is to draw attention to Abraham's faith which is why he was willing to obey such a hideous command. (A faith, BTW, that believers are expected to follow Heb 12:1) I stand by my previous post that Gen 22 is a ridiculous story meant to teach obedience. Any relationship it has to John 3:16 only shows God is no greater than Abraham in being willing to give up their only begotten son.

Genesis 22 - the real story Why does God need to test a believer's faith if he knows their thoughts and what's in their heart? He had to have known what Abraham would do. (You have to ignore verse 12 though - for just like with Adam and Eve, YHWH appears to be a totally clueless God.) So, if testing was not necessary to prove Abraham's faith to God, it must have been to prove Abraham's faith to himself. Regardless of having to experience for 3 days the mental and emotional anguish from having to kill his only child, Abraham would learn just how strong his trust in God actually was. BUT, there incredibly Abraham doesn't struggle with the idea at all. Supposedly, the reason for this was because Abraham knew that God's plan was to raise Isaac from the dead! So, the rational question is why play the whole thing out? God could have said to Abraham, "Look Abe, I knew if I asked you that you would do it. Wait to go!" Then Abraham could say, "I knew, all-powerful and merciful God, that you would raise Isaac's ashes back to life. Glory be to you!" Then they could have shook hands - end of story. This whole ridiculous story was not about God and Abraham - it's a lesson to the readers. OBEY GOD NO MATTER WHAT AND YOU WILL GET YOUR FULL REWARDS AFTER YOU DIE. (See vs 16-18) One last thing, apologists will say that the purpose of the story is to foretell God sending his own only-begotten son into the world to die FOR US. My response is what's so great about God doing it when Abraham was willing to do the same thing.

You know cman, I really appreciate this post of yours. Thanks

Thanks for your post Raf. It's obvious that you have spent time researching evolution which is great. There is so much information about it out there, all of which never interested me in the past. But now that I no longer believe a god exists and that the bible is not his word, what's left is how do I make sense of the natural beauty of life on this planet. Just to observe it, to interact with it and to appreciate it, for me, begs an answer to the question of how did it all come to be. I'm surprised by how emotional this topic is turning out to be. I can't explain why, so I'm calling it a night and will see what the morning brings.

How do you let go of the theory of divine intelligence after always believing it was a strong argument for God being the Creator of everything? I’ve started by recently listening to two videos. In the first, Seth Andrews interviews the authors of “Evolving out of Eden: Christian Responses to Evolution” - Robert Price and Edwin A. Suominen. They get into deconstructing the works of “science-savvy theologians” who have come up with ways to combine Genesis and Genetics such as “Evolutionary Creation.” Their conclusion is that such theories don’t hold up under scientific scrutiny. In the second one, Seth Andrews interviews Abby Hafer about her book “The Not-So-Intelligent Designer: Why Evolution Explains the Human Body and Intelligent Design Does Not.” In the video, she gives a number of examples of faulty designs, one of the first being about testicles being outside of the human body while certain other animals have them inside, safe and protected. Faulty designs point to a faulty designer which would remove a perfect God from the equation. I know WordWolf has a thread in the Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible sub-forum called “What Happened in Genesis 1?” This thread is in the Atheism sub-forum for the reason I gave above. I’ll start reading “Evolving out of Eden” on Kindle tomorrow and then begin sharing some ideas as I go along. Any posts on the topic would be helpful as well.

You know there is a new Disney musical drama film being released in December about the life of Mufasa. I don't know if it will make those of us who were traumatized by his treacherous murder when he was pushed from the cliff and then trampled to death by the stampeding wildebeest as his adorable son who had just been saved from said stampede by his brave father watched him fall...feel any better, but it's worth a try, I guess. And thanks for changing the name!

Modcat5 killed Simba's father!!? But why??? On the other hand, considered them said.

...possible son or daughter. So effing true and so effing bad.

After starting the thread, I wanted to change the title to "letting go" instead of "losing" but wasn't sure if that was possible. I never used to have a problem with Matthew 22:37-39 - what could be wrong where love is concerned. However, the part I used to overlook or ignore before, now stands out - is it love when you are commanded to do so with there being negative consequences when you don't?

I used the word fundamentalist because it means believing the bible is the literal word of God and that it is inherently accurate. This was how vp wanted us to view the bible, but you're right in that he felt free to change it whenever it suited his fancy. I think because of the former, many were gullible to accept the latter.

The first gift from God (and the one all future gifts are dependent on) is salvation, but since there is a requirement attached (that you must make Jesus your Lord), it is not a free gift. If that requirement is not met, there is no salvation and one remains condemned to death/hell. The way God set everything up from the very beginning in Genesis 2 was conditional on obedience and the result of the first sign of non-compliance was death. What parent would set up such a system with their child?

Hi oldiesman, thank you for your answer. The action I was referring in my question though is whether it is okay with God for believers to choose which scriptures to believe and which to discard. Phil 2:12 does not speak to this. It speaks about how obedience is required when working out ones salvation because God will be working in them, at the same time, to be willing to do his good pleasure. Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (The phrase "fear and trembling" is used in two more verses and obedience is mentioned in them as well. They are 2 Cor 7: 15 and Eph 6:5.)

I'm asking sincerely if there were times you struggled with an answer you believed you received after saying this prayer. Have there ever been feelings of guilt, doubt, confusion or fear as a result of listening for answers?