Charity

You're probably right. Best I can do is search the internet for what others have written about the historicity of Paul like Richard Carrier for example.

I don't think it's karma though when an uncaught serial killer sincerely obeys Rom 10:9-10 at the end of his life, gets saved and then has the promise of eternal life while his unsaved victims will either spend eternity in hell or die a second death in the lake of fire. mj412 wrote in the "Justice" thread linked above, "I mean if you think the scriptures prove all evil men will die I do not read , I read all men who deny Jesus as LORD. will burn ." Since I believe the bible is man's word and not God's, I'm interested in why Paul would come up with a concept like Rom 10:9-10 (which was written before any of the gospels) and attribute it to the god yahweh. What benefit was there to him in doing so?

vpw taught that Jesus was not God. Do you still believe this or have you returned to the belief in the trinity?

I often bring up the above two false attributes of God, but rarely do I mention the all-righteous-and-just trait of god. This concept was one of the main reasons I began to doubt in the existence of yahweh - specifically the examples of his wrath being rained down regularly on people in the OT and which will again show up in the end times via his son. I’m thinking of starting a new topic in the Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible or the Atheist sub-forum to discuss, what to me is, this disturbing idea that there must be a penalty for sin because God is righteous and just. Many Christians find comfort in believing that evil people will get their due one day, but this actually happening is something that must be taken on faith. I read with interest this short thread (especially the posts by "think fish" and "mj412") - Justice By Abigail, August 9, 2005 in Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible

Blood sacrifices can be traced as far back as the Babylonians, Canaanites, and ancient nomadic rituals. The writers of the OT simply assigned it to their god. It's very barbaric. A real, all-loving and all-powerful god, however, would have come up with something more humane when relating with the mankind he created.

It was your "You're JUST catching on to that?" post to oldiesman that got me to read his again 2 more times to be sure what it actually said.

I am now realizing I misread oldiesman's post who seems to have misread my previous post from July 15. I mentioned non-believers in that one but not that I was one. Below is oldiesman's reply to the above post. I read it as "I get a sense that you do not believe in a God that exists." So just to be clear, I have believed in God from a child growing up in the RC church right up to the earlier part of this year. I began this thread because of the doubts I was having about God and the bible. I now am an atheist but still interested in discussing the biblical teachings about God and Jesus because of the influence they had on my life in the past and how they influence the beliefs and actions of people today.

Looking back on the whole thing, I agree. I just provided the whole timeline in reference to the timeline modcat5 provided. I have no animosity towards his email or his decision to delete the posts.

Thank you for your reply. I guess from the standpoint of the Pontius Pilate's story, it was an injustice. From the standpoint of the redemption story, it was God's righteous plan was it not?

Here's the timeline. Nathan had written on July 14th about the former president being shot in the context of how people's "beleefs" cause division and destruction. You then wrote a post on July 19th where you mentioned candidate X and the fallen firefighter in the context of who God spared and who he didn't. My post about “you know who” being shot in Baker, PA. was written on July 20th in the context of some calling the incident a miracle. That post was not deleted and I wrote yesterday that I appreciated this. It wasn’t until 4 months later in November that Oldiesman replied to my July 20th post. Both his post and my reply were deleted for the reason you gave above. I think my reply to Rocky’s post of Nov 10th was also deleted. Got it (hot chocolate with whipped cream for me)

The first half hour so far has been interesting. Thanks for sharing it Rocky.

I agree with your first part. Can you say more about your last sentence. I don't think this god (if he exists) is either. Thanks,

I’m going to go ahead and assume that the “greatest injustice of all” is the story of Adam and Eve since it introduced the concept of sin into the world. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If taken as being true, it simply shows one man was capable of undoing God’s perfect creation which, imo, makes God pretty inept. If taken to be a myth that teaches some moral lesson, that’s cool, but it is devoid of a god’s authority and authorship. Concerning your "great sin" reference, below is part of my post from my "Sin and the Need for Perfect Love" thread.

I get where you are coming from because I was there too - for over 5 decades. What "greatest injustice" are you referring to?

I appreciate that you were not strict Raf because the issue was not to discuss political views but to discuss what evidence someone has to claim god had anything to do with an incident that involved a politician and a fireman. It's all a bunch of guesswork made necessary because a hidden god won't show up and speak for himself. I heard today this great quote from Christopher Hitchens - "It’s called faith because it’s not knowledge.”

Just as an aside Rocky, how does this relate to the topic of this thread.

I noticed yesterday for the first time that when I googled a question, AI was the first response.

This is a recent event that has to do with why I started this thread. Shortly after the Christian woman I wrote about previously said she would continue praying for my grandson’s health, he had a drastic improvement. He was consistently much happier and was having only the occasional minor seizure. I immediately had to deal with the idea that God (who I no longer believed existed) was answering her prayers. Although there was also a small change made to his medication, previous changes (and there were many of them) had resulted in only a temporary improvement or none at all. So, there was no way of knowing for sure if this change was causing what was happening. The relief from seeing him this new way felt wonderful and we were all truly thankful. As a Christian, I would have had no doubt that this was coming from a loving and caring God. As an atheist though, I obviously had my doubts, but I couldn’t outright dismiss the possibility. The consideration to “give God the glory” was tempting mostly because of how thankful I was and previously, I had always given that thanksgiving to God. However, I eventually realized that my reaction was indeed a nostalgic feeling based on those from the past which I now know were never based on factual evidence and that the things I had learned over the past few months about the many problems with God’s morality and the authenticity of the bible still remained real and rational. Since then, my grandson continues to have some bad seizures but they are much fewer and farther in between than what they had been for so long and for this present reality, I’m most thankful.

That be the one. Thanks!

Finally, a use for that emoji! You're quite witty to think of it!

Did you remove any recent posts lately? There's one I'm looking for which had a video and now I'm thinking I'm having a senior's moment that I even saw it.

The twi's double standard used to condemn the lowly followers and elevate the high-ranking leaders shows the "cookie jar" concept is of men. Notably, the inequalities seen in the bible such as men being higher than women and slave owners than slaves show these concepts and laws were man made as well. The fact that some people, including Christians, want to return to such inequality now also proves this point. BTW - you have a gift of lightening up your posts

Unfortunate, but true. I listened to a podcast from The Line Edge a couple of days ago where the caller used some incorrect science to claim this and then tied it to the earth being destroyed by fire in the bible (possibly a reference to 2 Peter 3:10) and to Rev 11:18 about God destroying them that destroy the earth. The responses from the 2 hosts are very interesting. Caller STRUGGLES to Grapple with the Disparity between Logic and His Feelings (@ 13:00 in the video)

Once you realize that the books of the bible are not the "inspired word of God" but those of men, then it becomes acceptable to come to different more logical or reasonable conclusions than they did.

I remember earlier this year, I had finally let the women’s group at the Vineyard Church know that I did not believe in the trinity. I discussed it with them a few times during meetings and with a couple of them on Messenger. They stood firm in their belief that Jesus was God the son. I was torn between their love and fellowship and my need to speak freely about who I believed Jesus was. One Sunday morning, I messaged that I would go to church with a completely open, unbiased mind and ask God to show me his truth. During the worship service, I was not focused on my question but only on God and Jesus. I was feeling very blessed by the songs we were singing when out of nowhere the words “look to Adam” came to my mind. I was absolutely sure right then that God had answered my prayer and given me his answer. You see, I had already been looking into who Adam was before the fall happened since Paul had written that Jesus was the second Adam. So I saw this revelation as God personally telling me that like Adam, Jesus was a man. I was so excited and overjoyed. Looking back now, I think it was from my own mind that this thought popped up, and I just gave God the credit because I was psychologically primed to expect an answer from him. I also now think that carrying on a conversation with God and Jesus back then was all within my head, and the reason it felt so real and comforting is that it's how a child feels when talking to an imaginary friend.