Charity

Timely post penworks considering that similar arguments are being shared openly today. Changing history allows the lessons it taught to be lost and the evil of its past to be repeated which they presently are.

I owe you an apology oldiesman. When I used the word "gaslighting" in my post to you above, I was meaning that you were questioning Marie's perception of her reality. I checked this morning and its full definition is the manipulation of someone into questioning their own perception of reality. I do not find you to have been at all manipulative in your posts. I also realize that you never said Marie was lost as I said you did in my reply to you. You actually said twice that she had lost her faith. I apologize for my mistake. I asked you for your thoughts on what you would say to Marie and you honestly gave me your answer. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss topics with me. I think Marie did have valid reasons for her doubt and her questions because of what she shared in the video, and I so identified with her confusion about God. She was showing an interest in knowing more about atheism maybe because her son had become an atheist a few years before. Your perspective was to help her find her faith again and to me that was like inviting her back into the same system of beliefs in that there are no guarantees with God's promises and no answers as to why God allowed her daughter to get schizophrenia. Your answer was to continue praying (and fasting) and wait for a response from God. (I know that was your short answer and you probably would have suggested other things as well.) The thing was that she had already been praying and waiting and it led to her having doubts and confusion. My perspective was that she needed to explore her doubts and continue asking questions. She had already realized that the story of Noah's flood could not logically be true. I learned a lot from listening to atheists because their knowledge is outside of what you will hear within Christian circles and biblical doctrine. I started doing research for myself and decided against the Christian beliefs I held about God, Jesus and the bible. At first I said I was losing my faith but in truth, I was letting go of it because of what I had learned. I would have encouraged Marie to continue looking for answers and rely on rational evidence for her beliefs instead of going back to settling with "God's ways are higher than your ways so don't question why."

I posted the latest "prophecy" called" A Final Call Before Finality Falls on the Judged" by William Brooks in the "Spirit of Prophecy" thread. While reading it, the "love me or else" theme ran through it. I know most Christians would not see it as "love me or else" but as "For God so loved the world that he gave..." I just don't think the latter justifies the prior.

Remember the big US campaign in 1987 with the eggs fried in a frying pan and the slogan "This is your brain on drugs?" The following, to me, is "This is your brain on Yahweh." This latest "prophecy" of William Brooks called A Final Call Before Finality Falls on The Judged (Video) - A Final Call Before Finality Falls on The Judged (Written) is one messed-up message. It screams of "love me or else" throughout this long and repetitive piece of writing about the greatness of God and the depravity of man. Here are portions of it (words in all cap are done by him, underlining and italics are done by me): __________________ Behold! I AM Yahweh, the Great I AM, and I do come to send my Words of love and a final call to those who face finality of judgment should they refuse my final call. Even though, all who call on the name of Jesus until the end will achieve great and eternal salvation and great reward, many many men will fall to judgment on account of their sins and hardness of heart. Who are you, O’ fallen man that in your ignorance and lust you would dare raise your heel against the great and eternal God of the Heaven of Heavens (even HE who gave you life) in the ways of the Satans? Therefore, understand my purposes and intent because I AM sending these Words to YOU as my final call to many of you who foolishly think you have time you do not have, and I AM even giving you words of warning in my undying love for you by reminding you once again of declarations of judgment and calamity already given that you have ignored in full that have been made by Christ Jesus in the throne and power of Yahweh, and also declared by Yahweh himself, even the Great I AM! Even which thunders were pronounced by Yeshua HaMashiach and Yahweh, the Great I AM from my mighty throne of declaration and judgment, and that now is given by the hand of my mighty messenger (William Brooks) by whom I send these Words of love and extremely firm and dire warnings, even so that all whoever may come should come, before judgment fully falls and there is no more time! Therefore should you desire to escape your own judgment and eternal destruction, I do command you to make Jesus your Lord fully and without hesitation. And I do so send this message of love and warning in my love to evil natural man, even in the same love I send messages of love and warning to my own children who have obediently accepted Jesus the Christ; because I cause it to rain on the just and unjust alike. On account of my love for you, I do come to provide my final call before calamity strikes from my very own throne of eternal power, judgment, and declaration where my thunderous voice still thunders in great and righteous anger. Even so, because YOU REFUSE to hear me even though I have warned and warned for many, many jubilees now! Hear me and hear me well because your times of eternal destruction will be sent to bind in judgment all who love and make a lie, and who have pleasure in unrighteousness, and should you refuse me in these times of grace, you will fall to eternal judgment because there is no other choice. __________________ As abhorrent as I find this "prophesy," does anyone think it is not supported by scripture?

You admit scriptures promise a chance at healing with the Lord but is not guaranteed (not unlike buying a lottery ticket), and that God allows terrible things to occur without answering the biggest question of why? Unfortunately, you mistake Marie’s valid reasons to question, if not outright reject, those two ideas as her being “lost” and that the only correct response to being confused and hurt by a system of beliefs is to return to it – to continue to pray (and fast) and wait for a response from God. To me, this is not healing – it’s gaslighting dressed as spiritual concern. It treats doubt as being the problem. It shames people for thinking critically instead of just "having faith." Marie wants to live her life honestly, not in an illusion. She is not lost. She is on the right path.

What you say about God not knowing in advance what Abraham or Job would do when being tested can also apply to Adam and Eve. If God didn't know that Eve was going to be tempted/deceived by the serpent and decide to eat from the forbidden tree (and that Adam would follow suit), then that takes the heat off of him for putting man in a situation where he knew they would fail and let it happen anyway. However, god could still have simply forgiven Adam and Eve and instructed them how to do better the next time . It's the punishment/consequences he meted out for all mankind because of the actions of these two that is the most abhorrent part of this story. He gets the heat put back on for that . It's just more rational to see it as an ancient myth written by men in order to explain why there was evil, death and so many other hardships in life.

Regarding your first point about God's justice system as spoken of in a book called the bible. Was it really a supposedly loving father-figure God that came up with the punishment of hell or was hell a) the invented concept of an underworld or place of punishment as described in Greek mythology by the man Homer around the 8th or 7th century BCE b) the idea of the prophet Zoroaster (a man) who founded Zoroastrian, the religion that Influenced the children of Israel while under the Persian rule of Cyrus (a man) in the 6th century BCE c) the continued best way to compel people to obey man-made religions? As for your second point, as an atheist, I would say that I do hate the concept of "love me or else" just as I do when it comes to the abusive language used in any relationship here on earth. "You are only good because of me. You are unworthy, you get your worth from me. You don't deserve any goodness in your life, so any goodness you get is a gift from me - it is because of me. If you are harmed or I hurt you, it's your fault - you made me do it. You forced my hand. You made me hurt you and whatever you do, never ever leave me or else." (Quote by Seth Andrews)

Yes, but what is faith? Where does faith come in when it comes to her question - "My daughter’s 36 now and she’s schizophrenic and if God is going to bless me with a miracle baby then why did he give her schizophrenia – what kind of god would do that?"

Thank you for your reply oldiesman. What would you tell her faith is?

I think it's unfortunate that you chose to focus on those two words instead of the issues around "believing" that the video was about. Marie was in the Way for 15 years. She eventually came to realize, like the dozens of posters on GSC, that it was a cult. You know then, oldiesman, that she was taught the false and harmful "law of believing" dogma. Could you not have related to her confusion about why God would "bless" her with children because of her believing and then later on "give" her daughter schizophrenia. Having the required faith to get answers to prayers is definitely a "hit or miss" practice where God gets the credit for the supposed hits and believers get the blame for the obvious misses. Did your heart ache when she said, "For so long in my life, I sought God and I tried to be a godly wife and a woman of God and then after I left the cult, I left Christianity as a whole and now it’s like, I sought to have the truth and to know the truth when I was in the groups and I find that I’m back at that thing – I want to know the truth again, and I want to say I’m living my life honestly and not living in an illusion, I guess." If she was talking to you, oldiesman, what would you have said to her?

Do you really think that fear of going to hell is a good reason to worship the god who is threatening to send you there if you don't love him?

Thank you for your post. I understand the fear and pain associated with alcoholism. My father was an alcoholic for decades. Often, he would become abusive, even violent towards my mother. Her priest told her this was her burden to bear and that she'd receive her reward in heaven (f$ck that sh$t). One year, in his late sixties, he had a heart attack and became a grandfather for the first time. (He would love sitting in his rocking chair with my infant son asleep on his big belly.) He just stopped his drinking that year. My father never talked about his alcoholism after that, and I regret not asking him about it so I could understand what it was like for him. His strong Catholic faith was never enough to help him even though I know he sincerely felt remorse and wanted to stop. It was more likely his thankfulness for getting a second chance at life and the comfort from loving his newborn grandson that helped him. I still get emotional thinking about it.

Dumbo Ending "The magic feather was just a gag..."

I agree with what both of you are saying – if it’s working, it doesn’t need fixing. However, if God, as the chosen higher power, isn’t working and the “why” questions are going unanswered or unsatisfactory/irrational/condemning answers are being given then suggesting letting go of that “feather” for a more healthier one can be helpful. One that promotes personal autonomy, agency, and authenticity such as what Raf refers to at the end of his post.

It warmed my heart just to see you write "my son has had a lot of questions."