Nathan_Jr

Sorry. I am missing something. Probably the joke. My fault, I'm sure. Sola Scriptura is a theological doctrines.... but we're talking about history, right?

That is my understanding, but that's how history was done back then. Third party transmission from authority was the primary method. That in itself should be cause for questions

To be clear. "The smeared one" is Steve Mason's phrasing of what Josephus might have meant if he actually wrote the clause. Greek was not Josephus' first language. Not every Jew at that time would have been expecting and looking for the messiah. Christos in other Ancient Greek texts meant the smearing, as of plaster, according to Mason. Josephus was a historian and propagandist for the Flavians. He wasn't writing scripture.

Yes, Eusebius quotes Josephus. Josephus was not the only historian of the time. There was also Tacitus who mentions Christos (or did he misspell it Chrespus). Josephus is not the only evidence. It's one piece of a historical picture. The topic is On the Historicity of Jesus. Methodologies used in doing history are not the same methodologies employed for theology. The point about the harmony of the gospels! Yes. But do they harmonize? I think historians point to the disharmony and contradictions as reasons to question the historicity.

Correct. I accept scholarly consensus on this one, but not because of the consensus. I am compelled by the arguments for it. A few years ago I rejected the authenticity of TF, as Raf does now, not because it's contrarian or fringe, but because I was compelled by Carrier's argument.

Indeed, the "he was Christ" was not quoted by Eusebius and others, but Steve Mason argues that it would not be unusual for Josephus to give nicknames to his characters, so, it's possible, but not probable. Christ means anointed. If Josephus wrote the disputed clause, it would be a nickname meaning "the smeared one."

Her ya go. Sentences 4 and six from the top of the article. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Well, it's history. We are talking about historians doing history. Josephus was an ancient historian. The ancients did history very differently from modern historians like Mason. I currently accept that both passages mentioning Jesus and the one mentioning his brother, James, to be passages written by Josephus - for the most part. The Bible is not history, it is scripture. It is not a reliable historical record of fact, that includes accounts of Jesus. I think some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are close to what he said, but most of the text are literary constructions supporting the narrative. i've said before, it needn't be factual to be true. There is no Christianity without Paul. Paul makes great claims for himself. He knew that he knew that he knew, but he didn't know Jesus by his own admission.

Raf is correct about the scholarly consensus. Google is your friend. Even poor victor paul wierwille talked about scholarly consensus while from whole cloth crafting imaginary definitions and gloves. Poor victor was correct about the scholarly consensus, too.

Mason also covers every patristic writer's reference of the TF. It's a thorough, methodical analysis. Again, he doesn't have an axe to grind. His methodical argument for Luke-Acts using Josephus (often erroneously) I also found to be fascinating.

No. Not the whole thing. The clause, "He was (called/so-called) Christ," was likely interpolated. And a few others. He gets to it in the last five minutes. He explains how the flow is typical of Josephus, that it's not disjointed - the A-B-A structure. Mason's whole academic life is revolves around Josephus, not the NT. He doesn't have an agenda. I heard him say on another pod that he is Christian culturally, as a born and raised participant in Western Civilization. Lol. It's clear to me he really understands the text and Josephus' style. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else. It doesn't matter either way to me. I went down the mythicist rabbit whole a few years ago with Carrier and Robert M. Price and Steve Mason's work played a part in pulling me out.

Raf, You may be familiar with Steve Mason, historian of Greco-Roman Judea and an important expert on Josephus. I find his analysis and argument for the authenticity of TF convincing. (He also makes a compelling case for the author of Luke-Acts relying on heavily on Josephus, which would put the dating of that gospel into the 2nd century.) Mason is an excellent teacher, but he can be excruciatingly methodical, granular, long-winded, tangential, even austere. His understanding of the language, style, substance and nuance of Josephus and other ancient writers is astonishing. Though clearly a highly respected authority on the subject, he is not dogmatic. He does not begin with conclusions, but with an open mind to inquire. When challenged with an alternative, he seems willing to admit the possibility. Even Carrier cites him on his website as open to the possibility of mythicism, though Mason is not a mythicist. Mason has been interviewed on several podcasts over the past few years, and he usually brings a power point presentation. The pods with him are loooong.... 1.5 - 3.5hrs. This one has time-stamped chapters, thank gawd! The TF discussion starts around 48:00.

"In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it ... And what was terrifying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable…what then?" — 1984, George Orwell

Yeah. Kinda like that. Paul had visions; Wierwille saw snow.

Been thinking about why Peter and James didn't squash Paul. Who knows... Maybe because they had received intimate, secret training. Maybe they had been taught to guard the secrets and were warned of others' misunderstanding. Maybe they'd been warned not give too much attention, lest they give credence, to blow hard charlatans who just knew that they knew that they knew.

There was at least one other Jesus mentioned by Josephus. And did he mention James, also? Can't remember. Some time ago I stopped trying to sort it all out, but it's all very interesting, still. I believe Jesus probably existed, but most today wouldn't recognize him in his historically factual form, whatever that is. I don't think the Gospel writers thought they were writing historical accounts the way historians would write today. People expected some mythologizing in their literature and their histories. I don't think the contradictions and incongruities were an issue for the ancient audience - they are only problematic for the inerrantist, the harmonizer, and the glove fitter, people who came along much later. If Jesus or Buddha or Socrates are not actual, historical people, that's ok with me. As Norm MacDonald once said of his novel, Based on a True Story: Not a Memoir, "It's true, but it's not factual." Something like that...

Perfect. Brevity is all I can expect. Thank you. I get the point. I am suspicious of Paul for many reasons, bragging about not getting his evangelon from the apostles being one of them. And he admits to lying, if that's what it takes to get converts. I can't remember his position. Does Carrier argue that the Testimonium Flavianum is a complete forgery? Or partially forged?

Though I haven’t read Cartier, I am familiar with him and others (Price, Avalos…) through lectures, debates and discussions on the inter webs. Would you please expound on this sentence? I am increasingly of the belief that there was no historic Jesus, and that if there had been, Paul would never have succeeded as his most influential apostle.

Worth repeating.

Take a number. Here's one. 1463. There are 1462 unanswered questions ahead of yours. ======= Truth is not afraid of being questioned. Hate is born of fear. victor and LCM hated being questioned. When I say hated, I mean they HATED being questioned. Just listen to the tapes or read the transcripts. The accuracy of the evidence of their fear fits like a...

The school bus is merely apparent. When viewed accurately, it's a scientifically precise motor coach. Accuracy is about MAKING something fit, especially when it doesn't. I wish you could see it in the original.

Mmmph

The question as to why victor chose Loy has been explored and discussed many, many times over the years right here on this discussion board, GSC. Though the answer is multi-faceted, one important factor is victor paul wierwille lacked the requisite in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. (Oh, how I've missed you, Irony... been gone too long.)

Right, I get it. I've read the accounts. I was pointing to the hypocrisy, the doctrinal and spiritual dishonesty, the bullshonta. I know. The hypocrisy wasn't the worst part. It was the raping.